What else is there - Seriously

[eskimoeskimo]

This is all very interesting! I brought Ativan with me to work today and am thinking about taking one to see what happens, although I'd rather not if I can avoid it. But the fact that a physical intervention can interrupt the pain process for some people, even especially if it does so by modulating emotional state, lends credence to the problem being psychological in origin.

What's a stumbling block for me, and probably some other people in this thread, is the idea that it would be de facto impossible to simply state concrete principles around "fixing TMS," whatever that means, and that any attempt to pin down "the method" would cause it to evaporate like Schrödinger's cat. I don't think fixing pain involves accessing some impossibly subtle cosmic prana state that's so ineffable it can't even be spoken of, much less described, without collapsing.

I tend to be more of the "both-and" mindset. Pain is a physical problem, whether it originates at the nerve endings where it's felt (due to actual damage or phychologically induced ischemia), or even directly in the brain. If psychological interventions work to make the brain stop creating pain, let's use them. If there's a physical intervention that works by tripping the same circuits, let's not exclude it. If nothing works, we have to admit that TMS might not be the only possible explanation. That's how we keep this in the realm of science and out of the realm of religion. If we're not allowed to question it, it's a dogma, and if it is a dogma, I can't accept it... but I don't think it was ever meant to be that.

Thanks for writing this. Sometimes I feel like people are saying that to end the pain I've got to reach nirvana. I didn't sign up for nirvana. (Again, please don't take this to mean I'm dismissing the possibility of concepts like "acceptance" being helpful). I can't help but remember that Sarno said that you don't have to overhaul your life, restructure your personality, attain enlightenment to end the pain. But then again, Sarno's simpler prescription did not work for me either so I don't know. Honestly I don't think we're even still dealing with Sarno's theory ... I know everyone will says 'the theory has just evolved as we've learned more about how the brain works, etc but that we're still operating off his basic premise) ... I don't think so. The only common denominator seems to be the belief that the pain is not reflective of a structural problem. But all this ACT, CBT, mindfulness, neural pathway pain, physical manifestation of anxiety, etc is really not what Sarno said. That's fine - Sarno is no infallible deity. I sometimes just wish we could acknowledge that this "theory" is helter skelter all over the place and there's a lot we just don't know.

 

[McAllister]

Sometimes I feel like people are saying that to end the pain I've got to reach nirvana.

I love that! I feel the same way a lot of the time. First of all, I'm Catholic, so that doesn't quite work

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Ok. So recognize that this concept, not my chosen words, is confusing and elusive. Try that rather than rejection of the idea.

The reason TMS is so hard to explain is that language just doesn’t really do the job. It’s when you start seeing the reality of what you’ve read on the tmswiki in your life and how that relates to your problems that you open your mind to being wrong about your most deepest beliefs around life, self, purpose, god, etc. When you are ready to have that kind of honesty with yourself you can now heal.

So it doesn’t seem possible to accept lifelong pain. There’s only 1 other choice realistically. Fight it. How’s that working for you? You can fight the pain the rest of your life and suffer tragically. You will 100% never elude the pain. Ask 100 TMS therapists if this is correct.

Acceptance is not a 180* polarity shift from fighting it. It’s realization that you are powerless against it. A realization. Not a thought or concept. Certainty that you are fighting a battle that literally could never be won and making yourself miserable.

What you're saying is basically Buddhism. I get that. You may be entirely right. I meditated for > 2 hours every single day for about 5 years. Silent retreats, the whole nine yards. I finally had to admit that it was making me feel worse, and I was no more accepting of the pain for all that practice. Now you may say that's because I wasn't practicing in the right way, using right mind, or that if the aim was to rid myself of pain then I didn't really understand mindfulness etc. I know. I get it. I do. That's all probably true. But believe me I was aware of and working with all that stuff throughout the 5+ years too. And again I'm still not ruling any of this out. I'm just making it clear where I've been and where I'm at ... damned defeated.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I love that! I feel the same way a lot of the time. First of all, I'm Catholic, so that doesn't quite work

Lol well the Buddhists will say you can be a Catholic and a Buddhist but I'm not sure what the Catholics say about that

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Very good stuff here!

I have become aware of my chronic negative thought patterns BIG TIME. Now that I'm locked down in my house alone with pretty much no distractions, I've observed that my internal reaction or commentary on virtually everything I see or read is something snarky, dismissive, cynical, bitter, or angry. As Sarno says, I am full of rage. I don't rant (much) or physically throw things, but there in an internal commentary going on inside me where the rage seeps through like a leaky roof. I've read about "accepting" and "letting it go" and have never understood what that means or been able to do it.

But recently I've decided that for me it means hearing the cynical, bitter, dismissive comment in my head and not reacting to it or engaging with it. Not agreeing or disagreeing with it, not judging or scolding myself, but not exactly ignoring it either. I acknowledge that the comment comes from an angry place, and that the anger is valid, but I don't linger. I nod and walk on.

@eskimoeskimo I'm going to throw something out and would ask you to consider it or find a way to consider it. I fear this may sound dismissive or like I'm not acknowledging your experience, and I truly do not mean it that way. I'm going to be using some hot words, some buzzwords that have a charge to them, so look past that to the content of what I'm saying.

There is something in us that wants to be special. To be the one "this doesn't work for." I used to work at an alcohol treatment facility and the director used to say that addicts were "dying of terminal specialness." I'm the exception, the Princess and the Pea, the one the doctors/teachers/therapists couldn't crack. Ordinary methods that work on other people don't work for me.

That need to be special and different, the one who broke the machine, the one the docs couldn't figure out-- that attitude can be the tip of an enormous iceberg of RAGE. It points to an old, old rage that one does not want to let go of. It can be a rage that has become so much a part of one's identity that losing it would make a person feel, sad, lonely, bereft, and not myself. You'd UNCONSCIOUSLY rather be in pain than be ordinary. (I'm very much speaking of myself here.)

I'm going to quote a poem here that I found on a blog yesterday. It didn't just speak to me-- it fairly SHOUTED at me.

From https://everunfoldingself.com

Felt Sense Prayer by Sharon Jones

I am the pain in your head, the knot in your stomach, the unspoken grief in your smile.
I am your high blood sugar, your elevated blood pressure, your fear of challenge, your lack of trust.
I am your hot flashes, your cold hands and feet, your agitation and your fatigue.
I am your shortness of breath, your fragile low back, the cramp in your neck, the despair in your sigh.
I am the pressure on your heart, the pain down your arm, your bloated abdomen, your constant hunger.
I am where you hurt, the fear that persists, your sadness of dreams unfulfilled.
I am your symptoms, the causes of your concern, the signs of imbalance, your condition of dis-ease.

You tend to disown me, suppress me, ignore me, inflate me, coddle me, condemn me.
I am not coming forth for myself as I am not separate from all that is you.
I come to garner your attention, to enjoin your embrace so I can reveal my secrets.
I have only your best interests at heart as I seek health and wholeness by simply announcing myself.
You usually want me to go away immediately, to disappear, to sleek back into obscurity. You mostly are irritated or frightened and many times shocked by my arrival.
From this stance you medicate in order to eradicate me.
Ignoring me, not exploring me, is your preferred response.

More times than not I am only the most recent notes of a long symphony, the most evident branches of roots that have been challenged for seasons.
So I implore you, I am a messenger with good news, as disturbing as I can be at times.
I am wanting to guide you back to those tender places in yourself, the places where you can hold yourself with compassion and honesty.
If you look beyond my appearance you may find that I am a voice from your soul.
Calling to you from places deep within that seek your conscious alignment.
I may ask you to alter your diet, get more sleep, exercise regularly, breathe more consciously.
I might encourage you to see a vaster reality and worry less about the day to day fluctuations of life.
I may ask you to explore the bonds and the wounds of your relationships.
I may remind you to be more generous and expansive or to attend to protecting your heart from insult.
I might have you laugh more, spend more time in nature, eat when you are hungry and less when pained or bored, spend time every day, if only for a few minutes, being still.

Wherever I lead you, my hope is that you will realize that success will not be measured by my eradication, but by the shift in the internal landscape from which I emerge.
I am your friend, not your enemy. I have no desire to bring pain and suffering into your life. I am simply tugging at your sleeve, too long immune to gentle nudges.
I desire for you to allow me to speak to you in a way that enlivens your higher instincts for self care.
My charge is to energize you to listen to me with the sensitive ear and heart of a mother attending to her precious baby.
You are a being so vast, so complex, with amazing capacities for self-regulation and healing.
Let me be one of the harbingers that leads you to the mysterious core of your being where insight and wisdom are naturally available when called upon with a sincere heart.

This may be something and I'm giving it some thought. That's all I can say right now. Thanks for writing

 

[BonnieLass]

This may be something and I'm giving it some thought. That's all I can say right now. Thanks for writing

Thank you so much for not dismissing my reply. That means a lot to me.

One other thought I had... I've used the Curable app some. It's okay and can be helpful. But the one lecture that REALLY got my attention, and I've listened to it over and over, is called, "What does the pain mean to you?" That really got to me. I've got to run and can't say more at the moment, but wanted to throw that in the pot.

 

[miffybunny]

This is all very interesting! I brought Ativan with me to work today and am thinking about taking one to see what happens, although I'd rather not if I can avoid it. But the fact that a physical intervention can interrupt the pain process for some people, even especially if it does so by modulating emotional state, lends credence to the problem being psychological in origin.

What's a stumbling block for me, and probably some other people in this thread, is the idea that it would be de facto impossible to simply state concrete principles around "fixing TMS," whatever that means, and that any attempt to pin down "the method" would cause it to evaporate like Schrödinger's cat. I'm quite sure that fixing pain doesn't require accessing some impossibly subtle cosmic prana state that's so ineffable it can't even be spoken of, much less described, without collapsing.

I tend to be more of the "both-and" mindset. Pain is a physical problem, whether it originates at the nerve endings where it's felt (due to actual damage or phychologically induced ischemia), or even directly in the brain. If psychological interventions work to make the brain stop creating pain, let's use them. If there's a physical intervention that works by tripping the same circuits, let's not exclude it. If nothing works, we have to admit that TMS might not be the only possible explanation. That's how we keep this in the realm of science and out of the realm of religion. If we're not allowed to question it, it's a dogma, and if it is a dogma, I can't accept it... but I don't think it was ever meant to be that.

Inherent in both science and spirituality is MYSTERY. Some people believe medicine and doctors as if it were a religion. There is far more that the medical world and science still does not know than what they do know. Having belief or faith in something larger than yourself is not necessarily dogma either. Human psychology and belief and motivation and emotions like love are not things that can be measured or "proven" in a cause and effect way. As I stated before, sometimes people use science as a defense mechanism to defend suffering. If everyone used science for every decision in life no one would take leaps of faith to get married or have children for example. With TMS, what does one have to lose by choosing to believe?? Worst case scenario is nothing happens and best case scenario is one gets better. If I had a nickel for every misdiagnosis and misinformation I was given by "experts" in medicine and autism (un the case of my son) I would be a millionaire by now. There is a great deal of research coming out now in the fields of neuroscience so if that helps a person's belief they can refer to many of the books listed on the wiki.

 

[McAllister]

With TMS, what does one have to lose by choosing to believe?? Worst case scenario is nothing happens and best case scenario is one gets better.

Nothing at all is lost by choosing to believe. Lots of people have done so and have experienced relief, and I don't want to discount that.

But I think this thread is for people who have already chosen to believe — sometimes for years — and have experienced your worst case scenario; nothing has happened. I think in that case it's kinder to acknowledge to them that, like everything else, TMS isn't a panacea. Sometimes the pain isn't TMS. This gives them the freedom and permission to move on from it when it's not helping, because otherwise they (and I) will torment themselves about "not doing it right." The problem with that way of thinking is that there's absolutely no way to tell the difference between "it's TMS but I didn't accept hard enough" and "it's not TMS." If TMS cannot possibly be excluded — if everything is TMS — then it cannot be real.

 

[miffybunny]

So I think I'm kind of struggling with the same thing someone pointed out below. For all intents and purposes, I have gone back to living my life. I work, I hang out with family, I exercise, I cook, I clean the house, I read and try to have fun and go outside whenever I can. My life looks identical to before the pain started (except for coronavirus changes). So I can function. I'm not "gritting my teeth" trying to get through the pain, it's just there. But my life is still miserable because of it. What would you suggest doing in a situation like this?

I totally get how pain makes life miserable but what I had to learn was to become indifferent towards the symptoms and sensations (which were actually quite horrendous ....burning, stabbing, electrical pain, shooting, vascular type throbbing, neuropathy from hell and even visuals...swelling, redness, temp changes etc). This was a process and it took a lot of practice to become indifferent and maintain a mindset of outcome independence. It was one of the most, if not THE most important things I had to do though. The other huge issue for me was my life. I was miserable in my life way before I had pain. People think if their pain went away, their life would be great but the opposite is true. If they had been at peace with their life and content in all aspects , the anxiety would not have manifested as TMS (chronic pain).

 

[miffybunny]

Nothing at all is lost by choosing to believe. Lots of people have done so and have experienced relief, and I don't want to discount that.

But I think this thread is for people who have already chosen to believe — sometimes for years — and have experienced your worst case scenario; nothing has happened. I think in that case it's kinder to acknowledge to them that, like everything else, TMS isn't a panacea. Sometimes the pain isn't TMS. This gives them the freedom and permission to move on from it when it's not helping, because otherwise they (and I) will torment themselves about "not doing it right." The problem with that way of thinking is that there's absolutely no way to tell the difference between "it's TMS but I didn't accept hard enough" and "it's not TMS." If TMS cannot possibly be excluded — if everything is TMS — then it cannot be real.

I think if a person finds themselves in that state of mind then by all means, throw tms out the window. As long as one lives their life and stops thinking about the symptoms and all this crap (whether is physical or psychological), they will get better. Basically stop trying. If everything physical has been ruled out, one may as well forget about the whole thing. Decide there's nothing wrong with you. This can be done and has been done by many people even before there was a term called TMS. Belief is a decision. There was a president (can't find the quote and can't remember who) but he was having neck and shoulder pain and at a certain point he literally said "I just decided there's nothing wrong with me".

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I think if a person finds themselves in that state of mind then by all means, throw tms out the window. As long as one lives their life and stops thinking about the symptoms and all this crap (whether is physical or psychological), they will get better. Basically stop trying. If everything physical has been ruled out, one may as well forget about the whole thing. Decide there's nothing wrong with you. This can be done and has been done by many people even before there was a term called TMS. Belief is a decision. There was a president (can't find the quote and can't remember who) but he was having neck and shoulder pain and at a certain point he literally said "I just decided there's nothing wrong with me".

I think he’s saying when that doesn’t work. “Deciding there’s nothing wrong with you” and “forgetting about the whole thing” and “living your life” is (one variety of) the TMS prescription. But when that doesn’t work? Keep trying for another 8 years? 20 years?

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Inherent in both science and spirituality is MYSTERY. Some people believe medicine and doctors as if it were a religion. There is far more that the medical world and science still does not know than what they do know. Having belief or faith in something larger than yourself is not necessarily dogma either. Human psychology and belief and motivation and emotions like love are not things that can be measured or "proven" in a cause and effect way. As I stated before, sometimes people use science as a defense mechanism to defend suffering. If everyone used science for every decision in life no one would take leaps of faith to get married or have children for example. With TMS, what does one have to lose by choosing to believe?? Worst case scenario is nothing happens and best case scenario is one gets better. If I had a nickel for every misdiagnosis and misinformation I was given by "experts" in medicine and autism (un the case of my son) I would be a millionaire by now. There is a great deal of research coming out now in the fields of neuroscience so if that helps a person's belief they can refer to many of the books listed on the wiki.

I chose to believe TMS was the explanation for my symptoms a long long time ago and threw everything else out the window. I had nothing to lose and I got your worst case scenario - nothing happened.

 

[Tms_joe]

What you're saying is basically Buddhism. I get that. You may be entirely right. I meditated for > 2 hours every single day for about 5 years. Silent retreats, the whole nine yards. I finally had to admit that it was making me feel worse, and I was no more accepting of the pain for all that practice. Now you may say that's because I wasn't practicing in the right way, using right mind, or that if the aim was to rid myself of pain then I didn't really understand mindfulness etc. I know. I get it. I do. That's all probably true. But believe me I was aware of and working with all that stuff throughout the 5+ years too. And again I'm still not ruling any of this out. I'm just making it clear where I've been and where I'm at ... damned defeated.

Yes. A lot of what I discovered is rooted in Buddhism. When did the original Buddha become enlightened 2600 years ago? When he stopped trying.

I wish I could say it all more succinctly, but I’m at a loss for the words.

Lean into the defeat. Feel that emotion and what it’s all about.

It’s an internal surrender to what reality really is and an understanding that what YOU experience is clouded by bias from your ego, or use the word subconscious if you like. That surrender is freedom from everything you worry about. Worrying can simply no longer make any logical sense. That can become more and more your normal. Some people have a hard break and that becomes their new normal instantly.

You gotta be unbelievably honest with yourself. You get to the point that you could be in an argument with someone that got heated, but the moment you saw proof you were incorrect, you’d immediately admit to it. For most people that’s too damaging to their pride, and that pride is a key source to all suffering, which will induce TMS.

Turn the suffering into motivation. Not to not have to deal with pain. That may just be reality for the rest of your years. A hard life. Ok. Where should I focus now? Choose your inner state and mental health improvement as priority one. Magically the pain disappears and oddly seems like it was never important to begin with.

 

[miffybunny]

I chose to believe TMS was the explanation for my symptoms a long long time ago and threw everything else out the window. I had nothing to lose and I got your worst case scenario - nothing happened.

But if one think the same thoughts every single day and focuses on the symptoms day in day out nothing changes. These chronic, habitual thought patterns can be so ingrained we don't realize. Think the same thoughts, get the same results. As Tms Joe said you "have to be unbelievably honest with yourself". Can you honestly say you don't think the same thoughts every day , day in day out, over and over and over?

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Yes. A lot of what I discovered is rooted in Buddhism. When did the original Buddha become enlightened 2600 years ago? When he stopped trying.

I wish I could say it all more succinctly, but I’m at a loss for the words.

Lean into the defeat. Feel that emotion and what it’s all about.

It’s an internal surrender to what reality really is and an understanding that what YOU experience is clouded by bias from your ego, or use the word subconscious if you like. That surrender is freedom from everything you worry about. Worrying can simply no longer make any logical sense. That can become more and more your normal. Some people have a hard break and that becomes their new normal instantly.

You gotta be unbelievably honest with yourself. You get to the point that you could be in an argument with someone that got heated, but the moment you saw proof you were incorrect, you’d immediately admit to it. For most people that’s too damaging to their pride, and that pride is a key source to all suffering, which will induce TMS.

Turn the suffering into motivation. Not to not have to deal with pain. That may just be reality for the rest of your years. A hard life. Ok. Where should I focus now? Choose your inner state and mental health improvement as priority one. Magically the pain disappears and oddly seems like it was never important to begin with.

It sounds so appealing to me, it does. Which is why I started meditating in the first place and why one of the first therapies I tried was “Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)” (which is basically just a mindfulness based behavioral approach). I appreciate you trying to convey what words can’t really capture. I’m genuinely not sure how to pursue this line any further though. I recently tried picking up meditation again and had to put it back down. It’s one of the surest ways to get me in a suicidal state. Some gurus have emphasized to me that that’s just more sign that I need to keep going or even that it’s evidence of getting somewhere. I stuck with it for a long time. Looking back it was not safe. I shouldn’t have listened to those folks. I was torturing myself.

It seems a lot of people get better w/o this level of coming to terms with suffering. Can it really be this hard?

 

[eskimoeskimo]

But if one think the same thoughts every single day and focuses on the symptoms day in day out nothing changes. These chronic, habitual thought patterns can be so ingrained we don't realize. Think the same thoughts, get the same results. As Tms Joe said you "have to be unbelievably honest with yourself". Can you honestly say you don't think the same thoughts every day , day in day out, over and over and over?

Yes I can honestly say that I have not been thinking the same negative thoughts day in day out for all these years. I think you’re assuming I must have been because I didn’t get better, and if I didn’t get better it must be because I didn’t really change because for you everyone can get better. If I had changed I would have gotten better. But that’s assuming a lot. I’ve tried a lot of things and changed a lot of things. It just didn’t make any difference to the pain. A lot of this has been done under the direct guidance of the TMS therapists you’ve all heard of. I’ve given this my all. Nothing happened.

 

[miffybunny]

Yes I can honestly say that I have not been thinking the same negative thoughts day in day out for all these years. I think you’re assuming I must have been because I didn’t get better, and if I didn’t get better it must be because I didn’t really change because for you everyone can get better. If I had changed I would have gotten better. But that’s assuming a lot. I’ve tried a lot of things and changed a lot of things. It just didn’t make any difference to the pain. A lot of this has been done under the direct guidance of the TMS therapists you’ve all heard of. I’ve given this my all. Nothing happened.

I'm not assuming that at all "because you didn't get better". I'll just leave it at that.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I'm not assuming that at all "because you didn't get better". I'll just leave it at that.

I suppose you’re alluding to the fact that we’ve talked personally and so you’ve witnessed my negative thought patterns first-hand. That’s fine, you don’t have to be circumspect about that. Not for my sake anyways.

I’ll just say that I wasn’t this negative after 1, 2 ... 5 years of trying this stuff. But 8 years? Who wouldn’t be dejected? Who wouldn’t be wondering if this is really the right approach? We here all think chiropractors aren’t really addressing the cause of pain ... but what if someone told you you just need to keep trying the chiropractor for 8, 10 years. Is that reasonable?

 

[BonnieLass]

Is that reasonable?

Is it reasonable to you?

What would the validation of the TMS community mean to you? I don't mean that rhetorically; I mean it literally. How would it feel?

 

[miffybunny]

I suppose you’re alluding to the fact that we’ve talked personally and so you’ve witnessed my negative thought patterns first-hand. That’s fine, you don’t have to be circumspect about that. Not for my sake anyways.

I’ll just say that I wasn’t this negative after 1, 2 ... 5 years of trying this stuff. But 8 years? Who wouldn’t be dejected? Who wouldn’t be wondering if this is really the right approach? We here all think chiropractors aren’t really addressing the cause of pain ... but what if someone told you you just need to keep trying the chiropractor for 8, 10 years. Is that reasonable?

I'm definitely not telling you to keep trying the TMS approach. Actually what I'm saying is stop trying. Let it go. Give up the fight with yourself. I'm not here to sell you on an approach. It has worked for millions of people but at this point you need to forget about it. By focusing on pain that is somatized anxiety (and has been ruled out structurally by many experts), you are wasting your life. How do you want to live the rest of it then?