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What else is there - Seriously

Discussion in 'Support Subforum' started by eskimoeskimo, Aug 7, 2020.

  1. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    I don't understand how this unequivocal confidence can be justified. I'm sure that getting out of pain is an extremely powerful experience, and that it must motivate one to spread the word. But sometimes I think that, despite the best intentions, it may be unfair to tell people who are suffering that "ANYONE" can get better? How can anybody possibly know this? Pain is a nebulous and little understood thing. Maybe the TMS perspective is getting us some way closer to understanding chronic pain. Maybe for some people, or even most people, it's the most accurate description of the chronic pain process. But I can't believe that we're at the stage at which we can just say to all of the strangers all over the world who are suffering with chronic pain that "living your life authentically" is the way for "ANYONE" to end chronic pain. What about those of us who have been working at this diligently (yes, including working at not working at it so hard, etc etc) for years upon years? We just haven't been living authentically enough? Okay, maybe. Maybe. But that strikes me as a brazen diagnosis to be made en masse to all these strangers in pain. I don't know. I know you're trying to help ... I do. I just worry I'm being kept in this agonizing TMS purgatory because there are so many people who are willing to tell me without any hesitation that 'if you finally get the hang of the TMS stuff, what we've all been trying to tell you, your pain will end.' Maybe it won't. Maybe it can't. Maybe I haven't done anything wrong. Maybe it just doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  2. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    My advice is to stop "trying" which really speaks to state of being. We are either in a state of resistance or a state of allowing. If you are going through the motions of life and doing everything but white knuckling it and gritting your teeth through the pain, you are actually still in resistance. It reminds me of alcoholics who stop drinking but are "dry drunks". They stopped the behavior but they have not changed internally. This is a concept that is quite hard to put in words and there's no "how to" manual but it's a letting go...a letting go of resistance. Not being attached to outcomes or results or external achievements. It's more like "I'm going to do it anyway just for the sake of doing xyz". That is when you are truly in the moment and that is ultimately real empowerment. Accepting and embracing the present moment without fear or worry. TMS lives and thrives in the past and the future. You disable the mechanism when you lose the fear and stay in the moment not fearing or focusing on the symptoms. When you do that you have rendered the TMS strategy useless.
     
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  3. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    I realize how frustrating chronic pain is but I'm concerned that for others reading here, you are doing a great disservice. That would be truly unfair now wouldn't it? I wish to address all your points though because they are important. Firstly, I never said that anyone who doesn't get better by following a mind body approach is "doing it wrong". There is no right or wrong way to do anything. Secondly where is this "brazen diagnosis" you speak of?? Oh, you mean HOPE? If that's a "brazen diagnosis" I'll take credit for it. No one is excluded from hope and that is why I am more than confident that anyone can get better. Your entire post is one huge defense mechanism. You hide behind "science" and "facts" but guess what? Science can't measure hope or beliefs, motivations or reasons. There is more to life and this world we live in than the Newtonian model of cause and effect. The defense mechanism of saying "this tms stuff worked for you but it doesn't work for me or everyone" is your brain's way of defending your suffering. It is in a nutshell, resistance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  4. jamejamesjames1

    jamejamesjames1 Peer Supporter

    My man @eskimoeskimo I'm with you in this suffering but someone like @miffybunny is trying to help. Yes help can sometimes feel a certain way when we are suffering but if we get out if this maze im sure it'll make sense in hindsight.

    Here is something I did that convinced me it's my brain: I took a big ole dose of a benzodiazapin medication. Felt almost 100 percent fine. If that is to make you less anxious and it knocked out the pain... Well now I'm getting somewhere? Unfortunately I don't take these medications as the cure is worse that the disease if you get hooked.

    But do some outlandish shit and see if you get a window.

    Go skydiving, go to a gun show, drive a gokart, walk down the wrong street in Philly at night.... If it's tms I think you'll see a very short change (if you can do the experiment without influencing the results)

    Or do the most insane shit you can think of to not be you for a moment.. I dunno, dress up like Batman and hand out pizza to strangers on the street if they can answer your trivia questions. Just be a moron and menace and see if anything changes by sprinting so far outside your normal patterns

    If that works then...I dunno , buy a dog.
     
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  5. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    Forgive me, but I don't think you really spoke to my post. I'm certainly not attempting to bring anyone down to wallow in my defeatism. I'm just expressing some deeply felt fears and doubts as a long-time pain sufferer and a long-time TMS devotee. Rather, I hope that others may feel less lonely reading some of these doubts and frustrations expressed, doubts which they may share. It seems a few people have responded this way. But not as an end in itself. I'm not here to wallow. I'm hoping to get somewhere. I'm looking for help.

    I'm certainly not naysaying hope. I'm expressing concern that saying that absolutely anyone can get better by living life more authentically is quite a strong claim. I'm not sure how what I said is a defense mechanism, or hiding. I didn't mention anything about science, or 'facts.' I think expressing concern that this may not work for me, or therefore for everyone, is a reasonable response after 8 years of trying this approach and nothing else. I've devoted a lot of time, money, energy and invested a lot of hope in this stuff. Have I ever. If this is resistance, I'm struggling to see it.
     
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  6. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    I wish I could "like" this post 1,000 times
     
  7. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    There is definitely a percentage of people who never get better. That is not because their brain and body does not have the capacity to get better, however. The human body and brain is designed for survival in all humans. What makes the difference is mindset. We get in our own way with our thought patterns and beliefs we have about ourselves, our bodies and the world. It all comes down to mindset and belief.
     
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  8. Idearealist

    Idearealist Peer Supporter

    Geez Miffy, this is powerful stuff. I think that's one of my biggest issues — being stuck in chronic negative thought patterns. Life has seemed pretty ugly to me for a long time. I really don't know to be more genuinely hopeful without being untrue to what I've witnessed, learned, and experienced. I recently read the Great Pain Deception, and while I really liked Steve's story and writing style, I couldn't help but feel put off by the talk of Law of Attraction, vibrations, and other woo-y stuff. It's almost like good mental health is predicated on believing in things that are pretty fantastical. Maybe I just need antidepressants, lol.
     
  9. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Idearealist,

    Yes you hit on something that I can't emphasize enough... the chronic negative thought patterns that are literally running every minute. It's so automatic and so autopilot that in the beginning it's tricky catching yourself. Just as chronic pain is a learned habit of the brain, our THOUGHTS are habits and our thoughts are temporary if we want them to be. If one thinks the same thoughts day after day, day in and day out, is it really such a mystery why they don't change mindset?? I never saw or experienced the process of recovery in a woo woo New Age way (which btw is not my cup of tea at all) but it was actually a tedious, annoying and banal process for the most part that involved awareness, repetition and practice. I had to catch myself in certain thoughts, I had to reach for better ones that my brain wouldn't reject as bs and then I had to repeat that a million times a day until it became more effortless and more natural. In so doing I changed. Also I had to implement the work by challenging my fears gradually in real life...tolerating the fear but doing stuff anyway. This was a slow process with ups and downs. As far as books and approaches, I took what resonated for me and threw out the rest. If I read a book and only got one gem from it, it was still worth it. If Steve's book is jam packed with insights but there's some spiritual type stuff you're not into, disregard that and focus on what does make sense. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater as they say. I never journaled or meditated, but I did have to change myself and my life and I also take Prozac which helps with anxiety. I have been on it for many years though on and off, but I find it helpful. That's just me though. It's always one option as a "tool" that's all.
     
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  10. BonnieLass

    BonnieLass Peer Supporter

    Very good stuff here!

    I have become aware of my chronic negative thought patterns BIG TIME. Now that I'm locked down in my house alone with pretty much no distractions, I've observed that my internal reaction or commentary on virtually everything I see or read is something snarky, dismissive, cynical, bitter, or angry. As Sarno says, I am full of rage. I don't rant (much) or physically throw things, but there in an internal commentary going on inside me where the rage seeps through like a leaky roof. I've read about "accepting" and "letting it go" and have never understood what that means or been able to do it.

    But recently I've decided that for me it means hearing the cynical, bitter, dismissive comment in my head and not reacting to it or engaging with it. Not agreeing or disagreeing with it, not judging or scolding myself, but not exactly ignoring it either. I acknowledge that the comment comes from an angry place, and that the anger is valid, but I don't linger. I nod and walk on.

    @eskimoeskimo I'm going to throw something out and would ask you to consider it or find a way to consider it. I fear this may sound dismissive or like I'm not acknowledging your experience, and I truly do not mean it that way. I'm going to be using some hot words, some buzzwords that have a charge to them, so look past that to the content of what I'm saying.

    There is something in us that wants to be special. To be the one "this doesn't work for." I used to work at an alcohol treatment facility and the director used to say that addicts were "dying of terminal specialness." I'm the exception, the Princess and the Pea, the one the doctors/teachers/therapists couldn't crack. Ordinary methods that work on other people don't work for me.

    That need to be special and different, the one who broke the machine, the one the docs couldn't figure out-- that attitude can be the tip of an enormous iceberg of RAGE. It points to an old, old rage that one does not want to let go of. It can be a rage that has become so much a part of one's identity that losing it would make a person feel, sad, lonely, bereft, and not myself. You'd UNCONSCIOUSLY rather be in pain than be ordinary. (I'm very much speaking of myself here.)

    I'm going to quote a poem here that I found on a blog yesterday. It didn't just speak to me-- it fairly SHOUTED at me.

    From https://everunfoldingself.com

    Felt Sense Prayer by Sharon Jones

    I am the pain in your head, the knot in your stomach, the unspoken grief in your smile.
    I am your high blood sugar, your elevated blood pressure, your fear of challenge, your lack of trust.
    I am your hot flashes, your cold hands and feet, your agitation and your fatigue.
    I am your shortness of breath, your fragile low back, the cramp in your neck, the despair in your sigh.
    I am the pressure on your heart, the pain down your arm, your bloated abdomen, your constant hunger.
    I am where you hurt, the fear that persists, your sadness of dreams unfulfilled.
    I am your symptoms, the causes of your concern, the signs of imbalance, your condition of dis-ease.

    You tend to disown me, suppress me, ignore me, inflate me, coddle me, condemn me.
    I am not coming forth for myself as I am not separate from all that is you.
    I come to garner your attention, to enjoin your embrace so I can reveal my secrets.
    I have only your best interests at heart as I seek health and wholeness by simply announcing myself.
    You usually want me to go away immediately, to disappear, to sleek back into obscurity. You mostly are irritated or frightened and many times shocked by my arrival.
    From this stance you medicate in order to eradicate me.
    Ignoring me, not exploring me, is your preferred response.

    More times than not I am only the most recent notes of a long symphony, the most evident branches of roots that have been challenged for seasons.
    So I implore you, I am a messenger with good news, as disturbing as I can be at times.
    I am wanting to guide you back to those tender places in yourself, the places where you can hold yourself with compassion and honesty.
    If you look beyond my appearance you may find that I am a voice from your soul.
    Calling to you from places deep within that seek your conscious alignment.
    I may ask you to alter your diet, get more sleep, exercise regularly, breathe more consciously.
    I might encourage you to see a vaster reality and worry less about the day to day fluctuations of life.
    I may ask you to explore the bonds and the wounds of your relationships.
    I may remind you to be more generous and expansive or to attend to protecting your heart from insult.
    I might have you laugh more, spend more time in nature, eat when you are hungry and less when pained or bored, spend time every day, if only for a few minutes, being still.

    Wherever I lead you, my hope is that you will realize that success will not be measured by my eradication, but by the shift in the internal landscape from which I emerge.
    I am your friend, not your enemy. I have no desire to bring pain and suffering into your life. I am simply tugging at your sleeve, too long immune to gentle nudges.
    I desire for you to allow me to speak to you in a way that enlivens your higher instincts for self care.
    My charge is to energize you to listen to me with the sensitive ear and heart of a mother attending to her precious baby.
    You are a being so vast, so complex, with amazing capacities for self-regulation and healing.
    Let me be one of the harbingers that leads you to the mysterious core of your being where insight and wisdom are naturally available when called upon with a sincere heart.
     
  11. BloodMoon

    BloodMoon Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi @miffybunny,
    Could you explain what you mean by false beliefs?
    But what do you do when you can't change some of those things in order to live more authentically? What if the things that you're resentful of or you find intolerable etc., either can't be changed because they are beyond your control or would put you in a worse position, e.g. on the streets without a roof over your head? (I've asked this question before and someone replied that I needed to endeavour to change my attitude towards those things....but that would mean me being inauthentic.)

    For me, life is somewhat of a hair shirt - I recognise that all sorts of stuff irritates or angers me from dawn to dusk - stuff often caused, for instance, by other people not doing their jobs properly and petty bureaucracy. I kind of envy those who take the plunge to live 'off grid'. I'm in my 60s though and don't want to have to hunt for my food and build a log cabin in the woods to get away from it all in order to live authentically. I'm therefore in a stuck 'catch 22' situation.
    It's also prescribed for muscle and other pain. Couldn't Prozac be responsible for your pain reduction or is it a case of that when you've stopped the Prozac you've still remained pain free?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  12. Tms_joe

    Tms_joe Well known member

    Ok. So recognize that this concept, not my chosen words, is confusing and elusive. Try that rather than rejection of the idea.

    The reason TMS is so hard to explain is that language just doesn’t really do the job. It’s when you start seeing the reality of what you’ve read on the tmswiki in your life and how that relates to your problems that you open your mind to being wrong about your most deepest beliefs around life, self, purpose, god, etc. When you are ready to have that kind of honesty with yourself you can now heal.

    So it doesn’t seem possible to accept lifelong pain. There’s only 1 other choice realistically. Fight it. How’s that working for you? You can fight the pain the rest of your life and suffer tragically. You will 100% never elude the pain. Ask 100 TMS therapists if this is correct.

    Acceptance is not a 180* polarity shift from fighting it. It’s realization that you are powerless against it. A realization. Not a thought or concept. Certainty that you are fighting a battle that literally could never be won and making yourself miserable.


     
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  13. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi @BonnieLass ,

    I love what you wrote and totally concur. I've heard the term "terminally unique' before lol and it always made me laugh because I always felt that I was somehow different than the rest of the human race... an alien with weird problems that no one else had. This made me feel "apart' and "separate". It created a lot of suffering . The truth is we are all the same at the end of the day. We have unique personalities and lives but humans are designed a certain way and no one is excluded from getting better.

    Hi @BloodMoon

    False beliefs plays a massive role in TMS. Mostly getting better involves dismantling those false beliefs. The mental prison I had created for myself was constructed by bricks or false beliefs and brick by brick I had to tear those down. Each person will have to examine their beliefs. Some common ones come from the medical industry..."I have a pinched nerve, herniations, degenerative disc disease, fibromyalgia, Lyme disease, a damaged bladder, an incurable disease etc etc etc". There could be beliefs you have about your body..."This pain has been here for years and did a ton of damage, I'm too far gone to get better, if I eat chocolate I go into a flare, when it rains my pain worsens, if I sit in this position or without a pillow I'll be in pain etc etc etc etc etc". Other false beliefs could be "this tms stuff works for some people but not for me, I'll never be able to dance again or exercise, I have to restrict my movement because certain things could aggravate my condition, I'm broken, my life is over etc etc etc). Then we can have false beliefs about ourselves "I'll never be good enough, no one will ever want to date me. I'll keep getting rejected so why bother, I can't have the job I want because it's too risky, I have to stay in this job I hate because I'm lucky to have a job, I can't break up with this person because I can't be alone, I have to deal with my toxic parent because they gave me life etc etc etc". Most false beliefs are based in fear...fear of failure, fear of trying something new, fear of change. Challenging those fears also dissolves the false beliefs that created them in the first place.

    As far as living authentically this will look different for each person. There were things in my life I have no control over and I have had to accept. My son is severely autistic and I'll be caring for him until I die. There's no way around it and I deal with the tantrums, the poop disasters, the health issues, the limitations and all the the things that come with autism on a daily basis but I have carved out ways of making it manageable rather than making my life a monument to autism. I have another son and a husband so there needs to be balance. I got help with my son, I let things go that aren't important and I try to focus on the positive things and joy he brings me as well. I don't pathologize him anymore the way I did when he was first diagnosed. I accept. I also got a divorce . That was my choice and I'm happily remarried now. I try to minimize stressors in my life by not dealing with toxic people, rarely watching the news and I have no trouble saying no to things either. I also do things I enjoy and find fun...no matter how trivial or ridiculous they are.

    As far as the Prozac, I started taking it in 1991 when I was in my early 20's for anxiety. I have taken it on and off and it just helps my overall mood. I'm also much less irritable during that time of month. I have been off it during many periods and my pain did not come back. There isn't a direct correlation but there's an indirect correlation. When your brain is calmer and you feel more even keeled, your brain is less likely to feel stressed and activate the danger signals. I take a low dose but if I stopped tomorrow I would have zero fear of the pain returning and even if it did I know what to do. I have weird tms things that crop up once in a blue moon but I always shift mindset immediately and get right back on track. It's something I have total control of when it rears its head...and it will rear it's head because that's life and stress happens and things happen.

    Hi @Tms_joe ,

    Thank you for articulating something quite difficult to explain. Beneath thought, there is "state of being". One is either in a state of resistance or allowing and this is not an easy concept to explain...it's a way of being within yourself and in the world. I think Claire Weekes would say "Accept, accept, accept!". Radical acceptance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  14. Idearealist

    Idearealist Peer Supporter

    Yea, it's like pulling the weeds you have let overrun your mental garden for years. And agreed about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Steve's book is loaded with pearls of wisdom and I would recommend it to anyone dealing with TMS.
     
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  15. Latitudes9

    Latitudes9 New Member

    So in regards to the benzodiazepine thing...benzos don't help my pain (briefly tried Ativan and Valium), but what does is alcohol. Now, this is complicated because we know alcohol is an analgesic (has pain relieving properties), but we don't know exactly how it works. So I'm 100% sure my brain is causing the pain, I just don't know how to get out of it. I've tried to "push the limits"-- traveled to a country I'd never been to before, took on a job that required learning totally new information, tried seeking out new sensations, new environments, new feelings...and nothing. Nothing changed. The damn pain was still there. I'm trying not to care about it but it does wear on you and make you question the whole TMS thing. I'm not sure how much this added to the conversation, but anyway, my two cents.
     
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  16. Latitudes9

    Latitudes9 New Member

    So I think I'm kind of struggling with the same thing someone pointed out below. For all intents and purposes, I have gone back to living my life. I work, I hang out with family, I exercise, I cook, I clean the house, I read and try to have fun and go outside whenever I can. My life looks identical to before the pain started (except for coronavirus changes). So I can function. I'm not "gritting my teeth" trying to get through the pain, it's just there. But my life is still miserable because of it. What would you suggest doing in a situation like this?
     
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  17. McAllister

    McAllister New Member

    This is all very interesting! I brought Ativan with me to work today and am thinking about taking one to see what happens, although I'd rather not if I can avoid it. But the fact that a physical intervention can interrupt the pain process for some people, even especially if it does so by modulating emotional state, lends credence to the problem being psychological in origin.

    What's a stumbling block for me, and probably some other people in this thread, is the idea that it would be de facto impossible to simply state concrete principles around "fixing TMS," whatever that means, and that any attempt to pin down "the method" would cause it to evaporate like Schrödinger's cat. I'm quite sure that fixing pain doesn't require accessing some impossibly subtle cosmic prana state that's so ineffable it can't even be spoken of, much less described, without collapsing.

    [​IMG]

    :playful:

    I tend to be more of the "both-and" mindset. Pain is a physical problem, whether it originates at the nerve endings where it's felt (due to actual damage or phychologically induced ischemia), or even directly in the brain. If psychological interventions work to make the brain stop creating pain, let's use them. If there's a physical intervention that works by tripping the same circuits, let's not exclude it. If nothing works, we have to admit that TMS might not be the only possible explanation. That's how we keep this in the realm of science and out of the realm of religion. If we're not allowed to question it, it's a dogma, and if it is a dogma, I can't accept it... but I don't think it was ever meant to be that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
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  18. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    I have had the same experience. Benzos do not alter my pain at all, but alcohol does. I'm not sure if this is because of the pain-killing effect of alcohol, or the stress-relieving effect, or some combination. I'm always drawn to the "live your life" prescription, but looking back I too have done a lot of life things. I've travelled all over the world, lived in many cities, had many different jobs, learned many new skills, got a degree, learned a language, etc and ... the pain never left. So what's that all about? I just haven't been living "authentically" enough. I don't know what else I can do.
     
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  19. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    I've tried to stop fighting it. I'm not rejecting "acceptance" outright. I'm just saying I've never gotten it. I practiced vipissana meditation for literally thousands of hours. I only did that because it sounded plausible that acceptance might be a better way. As it happens, I gave it up because it made me feel miserable. But I'm still not ruling it out.

    The other thing that raises doubts for me is that, I think there are a lot people with pain out there who do accept that they will have this pain forever. People who have never heard of TMS, whose doctors have told them the pain is permanent and there aren't great treatment options, but who do their best to get on with life as well as they can regardless. I know some of these people personally. They don't obsess over the pain, or ask for reassurance, or seek out quack treatments. But, the pain does not go away. Maybe their life is better this way, better than spent fighting the reality, but the pain stays. I don't know how to square that with "TMS."
     
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  20. eskimoeskimo

    eskimoeskimo Well known member

    Same
     
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