What else is there - Seriously

[eskimoeskimo]

Is it reasonable to you?

What would the validation of the TMS community mean to you? I don't mean that rhetorically; I mean it literally.

No it’s not reasonable to me. 8 years is enough. That’s why I posted this thread, asking “What else is there? - Seriously” ... I’m looking for other ideas. Maybe this is the wrong place to ask. Maybe part of me was hoping someone would convince me to stay. Not because I think I should, but because I’m afraid. Because I don’t think there is anything else. This is the only group of people willing to tell me that the pain can stop. But that doesn’t make it true, just bc I want it to be. All the evidence in my own life points to the pain being permanent. Maybe my only choices are suicide, or enduring somehow, some ‘how’ that I haven’t found.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I'm definitely not telling you to keep trying the TMS approach. Actually what I'm saying is stop trying. Let it go. Give up the fight with yourself. I'm not here to sell you on an approach. It has worked for millions of people but at this point you need to forget about it. By focusing on pain that is somatized anxiety (and has been ruled out structurally by many experts), you are wasting your life. How do you want to live the rest of it then?

I was just saying that that too is still the TMS approach. Part of the TMS approach is giving up the fight and focus. That’s what you’re emphasizing. You’re calling it giving up on TMS, I’m saying it’s more TMS. Partly just semantic

But I’m also saying what do I do when THAT doesn’t work?

 

[Latitudes9]

I totally get how pain makes life miserable but what I had to learn was to become indifferent towards the symptoms and sensations (which were actually quite horrendous ....burning, stabbing, electrical pain, shooting, vascular type throbbing, neuropathy from hell and even visuals...swelling, redness, temp changes etc). This was a process and it took a lot of practice to become indifferent and maintain a mindset of outcome independence. It was one of the most, if not THE most important things I had to do though. The other huge issue for me was my life. I was miserable in my life way before I had pain. People think if their pain went away, their life would be great but the opposite is true. If they had been at peace with their life and content in all aspects , the anxiety would not have manifested as TMS (chronic pain).

I definitely understand the importance of outcome independence. But one of the things that is hard for me is when I've been trying to practice outcome independence for years, and nothing has changed. There's a little voice in the back of my head going, "Surely I'm not just meant to try to be indifferent to pain for my entire life?" I get that outcome independence means you shouldn't care whether the pain goes away or not, but surely there must be some point at which I reevaluate whether outcome independence is helpful for me to continuing practicing?

Your second point is what confuses me the most, because it doesn't match up with my personal experience. I was happy before my pain started. Just a few weeks before my pain started, I wrote in my journal, "Life is good. I'm content," or something to that effect. I truly believe that if my pain went away tomorrow, I would be the happiest person on the planet, and life would be great.

I truly do appreciate your help and advice, @miffybunny. Thanks for being patient and answering questions.

 

[LaughingKat]

I was happy before my pain started. Just a few weeks before my pain started, I wrote in my journal, "Life is good. I'm content," or something to that effect.

@Latitudes9 I don't pretend to have the answer(s) for you nor the expertise and experience of others on this thread. But I have a lot of the same frustration and even despair you're experiencing. I live my life but my symptoms are always on my mind. As soon as I forget or transcend one, another pops up -- the symptom imperative, I guess. Your words that I quoted above strike a chord with me. My symptoms started right after one of the most carefree, happiest, most successful years of my life. I sometimes wonder if that's why they started -- because I felt that I didn't deserve to be that happy, or felt I needed to be punished for being successful. (My parents certainly never wanted me to achieve success "above" what they achieved.)

I wish you peace and relief.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

But one of the things that is hard for me is when I've been trying to practice outcome independence for years, and nothing has changed. There's a little voice in the back of my head going, "Surely I'm not just meant to try to be indifferent to pain for my entire life?" I get that outcome independence means you shouldn't care whether the pain goes away or not, but surely there must be some point at which I reevaluate whether outcome independence is helpful for me to continuing practicing?

I struggle with this too. At the end of the day, if I’m really honest with myself, I’m only practicing “outcome independence” because in the grand scheme of things I want my pain to stop. No other reason. I don’t know how to get out of that trap because obviously my brain knows at all times what I really want. It doesn’t matter how many times I say to myself “I don’t care, the important thing is that I do it anyway, or that I put together a life worth living regardless of pain. Stay or go, pain, I don’t care” .... all day long, but I’m nowhere close to meaning that. More than anything else in the world, I want this f*****g sensation to STOP.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Don’t want to pull you into the weeds @Dorado, but as ever I’m wondering what you have to say on this matter

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Thank you so much for not dismissing my reply. That means a lot to me.

One other thought I had... I've used the Curable app some. It's okay and can be helpful. But the one lecture that REALLY got my attention, and I've listened to it over and over, is called, "What does the pain mean to you?" That really got to me. I've got to run and can't say more at the moment, but wanted to throw that in the pot.

I used the curable app for a while, but I don’t remember that particular lecture so I’ll go back and listen. Thanks

 

[BonnieLass]

I used the curable app for a while, but I don’t remember that particular lecture so I’ll go back and listen. Thanks

It's one of the very first lectures that you come to in the app. I have to read the transcript because I can't stand the voice of the woman who reads the lectures. I understand she's one of the founders/creators of the app. She does that thing that some women speakers do called "vocal fry," where the speaker pitches her voice low at the end of sentences and it changes to a growl. Hearing her voice makes me want to hurl my phone across the room. But at the bottom of the screen is an option to read the transcript. Another good Curable lecture is the one called "Pain Catastrophizing."

I think the only way to truly test Outcome Independence is to flat, f****ng give up. Not as a way of achieving results through the back door, as it were, but just throwing up your hands in weary surrender to the circumstances. And I'm not sure "acceptance" (whatever that is) has to be part of it. I think it's more of a draining of expectations. You go to the cupboard of strategies, techniques, modalities and when you open it a moth flies out and it's totally bare. Kind of like when people try a bunch of dating apps and go on a bunch of dates over a period of years and finally conclude there is just no one out there. And the next day they meet The One. As was said above, there is a lot of mystery about how all of this (and indeed, Life Itself) works. Maybe the reason giving up can cause such a shift (if it really IS authentic giving up) is that it clears the decks. Sweeps away all plans, expectations, agendas, and even hope. If hope, as Emily Dickinson says, is "the thing with feathers," then giving up is taking a cast iron frying pan and smashing that annoying, fluffy trickster who has led us on a path to nowhere for years.

I'm up early on a Saturday morning because I was awakened (and have been for many months) by excruciating pain in my legs. Yesterday it had me up at 4. This morning at 5--but only in the right leg today. A couple of years ago it was in my right shoulder and eventually that went away, but my legs started hurting. I won't hijack, but just wanted to say that I'm in this club, too, and I'm constantly searching for answers.

Early morning thoughts... no coffee yet...

 

[Mark1122]

Inherent in both science and spirituality is MYSTERY. Some people believe medicine and doctors as if it were a religion. There is far more that the medical world and science still does not know than what they do know. Having belief or faith in something larger than yourself is not necessarily dogma either. Human psychology and belief and motivation and emotions like love are not things that can be measured or "proven" in a cause and effect way. As I stated before, sometimes people use science as a defense mechanism to defend suffering. If everyone used science for every decision in life no one would take leaps of faith to get married or have children for example. With TMS, what does one have to lose by choosing to believe?? Worst case scenario is nothing happens and best case scenario is one gets better. If I had a nickel for every misdiagnosis and misinformation I was given by "experts" in medicine and autism (un the case of my son) I would be a millionaire by now. There is a great deal of research coming out now in the fields of neuroscience so if that helps a person's belief they can refer to many of the books listed on the wiki.

I like a lot of your replies, so thank you. But i feel like i do have a lot to lose by going by the TMS approach. Everytime i start to live my life again normally and resume activity behind pc/phone etc it gets worse and after some months il stop again. After that it never gets back to the point before and all got worse. So it didnt stay the same at all. Thats why im scared to keep trying.

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

 

[BonnieLass]

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

That is absolutely maddening! I really get that you are completely frustrated and don't know what to do next. I'm so sorry, and I want to give you big hugs and sit with you and bring you tea...

 

[BloodMoon]

It's one of the very first lectures that you come to in the app. I have to read the transcript because I can't stand the voice of the woman who reads the lectures. I understand she's one of the founders/creators of the app. She does that thing that some women speakers do called "vocal fry," where the speaker pitches her voice low at the end of sentences and it changes to a growl. Hearing her voice makes me want to hurl my phone across the room.

I'm glad it's not just me that feels like that about her voice! I signed up with Curable only to find that she voices virtually everything; there's no break from her apart from, as you say, when there's a transcript - or a guest speaker. I didn't renew my subscription because she grated on me so much.

I think the only way to truly test Outcome Independence is to flat, f****ng give up. Not as a way of achieving results through the back door, as it were, but just throwing up your hands in weary surrender to the circumstances. And I'm not sure "acceptance" (whatever that is) has to be part of it. I think it's more of a draining of expectations. You go to the cupboard of strategies, techniques, modalities and when you open it a moth flies out and it's totally bare. Kind of like when people try a bunch of dating apps and go on a bunch of dates over a period of years and finally conclude there is just no one out there. And the next day they meet The One. As was said above, there is a lot of mystery about how all of this (and indeed, Life Itself) works. Maybe the reason giving up can cause such a shift (if it really IS authentic giving up) is that it clears the decks. Sweeps away all plans, expectations, agendas, and even hope. If hope, as Emily Dickinson says, is "the thing with feathers," then giving up is taking a cast iron frying pan and smashing that annoying, fluffy trickster who has led us on a path to nowhere for years.

I think this is probably brilliantly profound! During the 23 years that I've had pain and other debilitating symptoms, I've lost everything but hope...and that could actually be the problem.

 

[miffybunny]

I like a lot of your replies, so thank you. But i feel like i do have a lot to lose by going by the TMS approach. Everytime i start to live my life again normally and resume activity behind pc/phone etc it gets worse and after some months il stop again. After that it never gets back to the point before and all got worse. So it didnt stay the same at all. Thats why im scared to keep trying.

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

Hi @Mark1122,

Fear is the fuel for TMS....fear of failure, fear of symptoms, fear of hurting yourself, fear of never being able to do the things you once used to do. The goal of the mind body approach is to gradually reduce and eliminate fear around these things. Many people have read the books and researched TMS but are actually afraid to implement the concepts because they are so afraid it might not work. It almost seems better to stay in the "hope phase" with the comfort of the knowledge in your back pocket but not actually doing anything. That is just one form of fear that manifests as a failure to launch in a sense. To address the fears and worries you have about resuming activities, the first thing to know is that it's a process with lots of ups and downs and zig zags. Many many times your pain and symptoms will worsen. Your brain will test you over and over and over. If you know this, however, you are already half way there. The truth is that the activities in and of themselves are innocuous and harmless. It's not the activities that trigger the pain, it's your THOUGHTS and fears about those activities that have turned them into triggers. The key is to gradually and slowly challenge those fears by doing these activities. Start out small, tolerate the fear and challenge yourself. Definitely don't do things that scare the crap out of you though, because that would be counter productive and just activate the danger center in the brain. The more you challenge yourself and your triggers in the real world (no matter how small and trivial the activity may seem) the more you build confidence and unlearn these conditioned responses. TMS is chronic pain which is "learned pain". It is reversible but takes practice and persistence. The more you do things in spite of your fear, the more you are training your brain out of the fear-pain-fear loop. I hope I explained the mechanics of it for you. Remember to go gradual and with no pressure or timelines. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. You are simply reversing these neural pathways through repetition and practice.

 

[BonnieLass]

I'm glad it's not just me that feels like that about her voice! I signed up with Curable only to find that she voices virtually everything; there's no break from her apart from, as you say, when there's a transcript - or a guest speaker. I didn't renew my subscription because she grated on me so much.

I actually sent her a tweet and told her to stop using vocal fry! Here's her twitter handle:

@LauraSeago Are you the voice on the Curable app? If so, stop using vocal fry (google it). I can't listen to you-- have to read the transcripts.

I think this is probably brilliantly profound! During the 23 years that I've had pain and other debilitating symptoms, I've lost everything but hope...and that could actually be the problem.

The term "leap of faith" is grossly and inappropriately overused... but it may apply here.

 

[Tms_joe]

I hope you’ll take this comment to heart. You are closer to the solution in this state of despair and hopelessness than when you are focused on pain with optimism.


That’s the paradigm shift needed. I’ll give my opinion on what else there is, but please realize one of them is inner peace, and it is available.

Sure. Most everyone who has suffered mentally has realized suicide would end it. Suicidal thoughts are just thoughts. They are just thoughts WHICH MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If that becomes apparent to you the mental suffering ends. Then the one and only obvious choice is to just focus on your mental well-being. TMS pain is quite simply a side effect of that problem.


It’s ok to to throw up your hands in defeat, feel down, feel confused, etc bc the pain has not subsided. Let that happen and be kind to yourself. I think you’ll find some clarity on the other end.

No it’s not reasonable to me. 8 years is enough. That’s why I posted this thread, asking “What else is there? - Seriously” ... I’m looking for other ideas. Maybe this is the wrong place to ask. Maybe part of me was hoping someone would convince me to stay. Not because I think I should, but because I’m afraid. Because I don’t think there is anything else. This is the only group of people willing to tell me that the pain can stop. But that doesn’t make it true, just bc I want it to be. All the evidence in my own life points to the pain being permanent. Maybe my only choices are suicide, or enduring somehow, some ‘how’ that I haven’t found.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

It's one of the very first lectures that you come to in the app. I have to read the transcript because I can't stand the voice of the woman who reads the lectures. I understand she's one of the founders/creators of the app. She does that thing that some women speakers do called "vocal fry," where the speaker pitches her voice low at the end of sentences and it changes to a growl. Hearing her voice makes me want to hurl my phone across the room. But at the bottom of the screen is an option to read the transcript. Another good Curable lecture is the one called "Pain Catastrophizing."

I think the only way to truly test Outcome Independence is to flat, f****ng give up. Not as a way of achieving results through the back door, as it were, but just throwing up your hands in weary surrender to the circumstances. And I'm not sure "acceptance" (whatever that is) has to be part of it. I think it's more of a draining of expectations. You go to the cupboard of strategies, techniques, modalities and when you open it a moth flies out and it's totally bare. Kind of like when people try a bunch of dating apps and go on a bunch of dates over a period of years and finally conclude there is just no one out there. And the next day they meet The One. As was said above, there is a lot of mystery about how all of this (and indeed, Life Itself) works. Maybe the reason giving up can cause such a shift (if it really IS authentic giving up) is that it clears the decks. Sweeps away all plans, expectations, agendas, and even hope. If hope, as Emily Dickinson says, is "the thing with feathers," then giving up is taking a cast iron frying pan and smashing that annoying, fluffy trickster who has led us on a path to nowhere for years.

I'm up early on a Saturday morning because I was awakened (and have been for many months) by excruciating pain in my legs. Yesterday it had me up at 4. This morning at 5--but only in the right leg today. A couple of years ago it was in my right shoulder and eventually that went away, but my legs started hurting. I won't hijack, but just wanted to say that I'm in this club, too, and I'm constantly searching for answers.

Early morning thoughts... no coffee yet...

I’m drawn to this attitude, but I’m concerned it’s just a mirage (for me anyways). Sort of as I was trying to convey to miffy is that this too is something I’ve been trying to cultivate for years. After all, giving up the fight and the technique-myopia is itself a component of TMS “treatment.” In fact I gave up most of the other stuff years ago - the journaling, the daily reminders, the therapy ... because I came to think that stuff was making me worse, more focused on the pain, and that I’d already plumbed the depths beyond all reason.

I’d say my attempted strategy for 5 years has been more along the lines of: “f*** it, I’ll just try to live my life then.” But where am I now? Worse than ever. Is it possible that I just never really got the hang of this? That I might still? I guess, sure. But is it also possible that I’m just banging my head against a wall, feeling worse and worse about myself, trying to ‘get the hang’ of something that I just can’t? I’d say hell yea. I mean this feeling is miserable ... that I ‘should’ be able to get to a place where I can authentically say ‘f it’ to the pain, that I ‘should’ be able to get rid of the pain because everyone says I’m an obvious case of TMS (which are actually my real initials) and ‘everyone’ with TMS ‘can get better.’ Not making any progress always feels, therefore, like I’m doing something wrong. Especially when people who have never met me are telling me this is because I haven’t been living authentically enough.

Sorry that last sentence may be too piqued, but I’m going to leave it in. I’m frustrated beyond measure.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I hope you’ll take this comment to heart. You are closer to the solution in this state of despair and hopelessness than when you are focused on pain with optimism.


That’s the paradigm shift needed. I’ll give my opinion on what else there is, but please realize one of them is inner peace, and it is available.

Sure. Most everyone who has suffered mentally has realized suicide would end it. Suicidal thoughts are just thoughts. They are just thoughts WHICH MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. If that becomes apparent to you the mental suffering ends. Then the one and only obvious choice is to just focus on your mental well-being. TMS pain is quite simply a side effect of that problem.


It’s ok to to throw up your hands in defeat, feel down, feel confused, etc bc the pain has not subsided. Let that happen and be kind to yourself. I think you’ll find some clarity on the other end.

Well I hope that other side will kick in soon, because been this hopeless and despairing for a long time now.

The thought of suicide is just a thought, but my inclination towards it is not. It’s a longing which stems from finding myself in an entirely intolerable, unbearable condition without any other end. Maybe there is a state of being which accepts suffering to the point that this worry/view/suffering becomes meaningless. But how much longer can I hold my breath?

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Then the one and only obvious choice is to just focus on your mental well-being. TMS pain is quite simply a side effect of that problem.

I’ve spent a lot more time working on my mental health generally than I have on TMS specifically. Including 4 months in the hospital last year for OCD and anxiety.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

It’s not liberating to feel this stuff doesn’t work and I’ll have pain forever. It sucks. Not sure I can bear it.

 

[BonnieLass]

@eskimoeskimo I totally get your frustration. I feel for you, my friend. Let me just toss out a couple of things...

1) You are hedging, i.e., not really authentically giving up. You're like the person who has dumped their boy/girlfriend, but can't resist checking out their social media, asking friends if "s/he's been asking about me," or maybe even driving past their house. [Full disclosure: I totally used to do this! I'd wake up in the middle of the night in a panic attack and get in my car and drive past my boyfriend's house. (This was decades before cell phones.) The round trip took ONE HOUR! Is that lunacy, or what?? In fairness, that was about 30 years ago, and I wouldn't do that again, but I'm still that person inside. ] So, it's like you've dumped her (TMS), but not really. You still notice a TV show she might like, or her favorite color. You're aware of her birthday when it rolls around. So you have to dump her (TMS remedies) for real. Even if there IS nothing after. You can't predict how it will be after you dump TMS and totally give up. (Hint: I firmly believe there will be something after, but I don't know what it is.)

2) Also, you're "piqued," "frustrated," feel like people are telling you that you're doing it wrong, can't take it any more. All of that adds up to what Sarno says is at the root of TMS, namely, RAGE. Again, this all applies to me, too. I've noticed that the running commentary in my head is seasoned--tainted, maybe?-- with anger, sarcasm, bitterness, irritation, judgment, snark, shaking my fist at the universe and screaming that I've been cheated! Your posts are full of anger. This is not a criticism of you at all, but something to observe, investigate, and question in yourself. Rage translates into TMS. Even rage over experiencing TMS. Talk about bitter irony, eh? My latest strategy is when I observe the snarky rage in myself is not to engage, but to say to myself, "I hear that," and move on without scolding or trying to talk myself out of it, or blowing sunshine up my skirt. Noting and moving on. Sound familiar? Those are the instructions one gets during meditation. Note the thoughts and feelings as if they're on a stream floating by or as if they're birds flying over. Don't engage.

To be clear: I wake up in pain every morning, so I can dish this stuff out but I can't necessarily consume it for my own benefit. I had to cut my walk short this morning because of excruciating pain in both legs and my left arm. WTF? That arm thing was new, oh boy. So I'm seeking and struggling and I appreciate you considering my comments. It makes me feel like my ideas are worthwhile and that's a good feeling.

 

[Tms_joe]

Just don’t give up. If what you are doing is not working, simply acknowledge that and start the next method.

Can’t speak for anyone else, but I literally feel like I’m the person who overcame exactly this trying to convince someone it’s possible for them. I KNOW for a fact it’s possible to end your mental anguish. I only know this from personal experience with zero background in psychology.

You Have to accept what you current perceive to be the reality of this situation. If you believe that it’s hopeless you have to stop fighting that. If you believe that’s a fact what are fighting?

Another tactic is to simply take the “self” out of it. What advice would you give a loved one? This one has been gold for me. Forces me to take away everything I think is so unique to me and just face reality. I truly want the best for my loved ones, and It’s easier to ignore their feelings and tell them what they need than it is my own. Find the conviction to do this to yourself.

Well I hope that other side will kick in soon, because been this hopeless and despairing for a long time now.

The thought of suicide is just a thought, but my inclination towards it is not. It’s a longing which stems from finding myself in an entirely intolerable, unbearable condition without any other end. Maybe there is a state of being which accepts suffering to the point that this worry/view/suffering becomes meaningless. But how much longer can I hold my breath?