What else is there - Seriously

[Mark1122]

For ppl who really want to live in the now without too many past feelings and defense mechanisms id recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Illusions-Free-yourself-destructive-emotions/dp/908070492X. Illusions its called.

https://play.google.com/store/books...urce=gbs_atb&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_atb

This might be the ebook?

And her website in english: https://www.pastrealityintegration.com/en/ (PRI, de kunst van bewust leven - Home)

She even has an english language course for people who get interested after reading the book. Im still in the process but its already helping me a lot. Especially people who are in addiction or obsessions and/or people who are depressed (often). Just a tip.

Its about us having defense mechanisms that activate when there is a symbol/trigger in our daily live that unconsciously reminds us about something from when we were less than 3 years old. Because it reminds us of this and it is too hard for us to feel, without us knowing, we will suppress it by going into a defense. Like eating chocolate or starting some new obsession, like reading or working a lot. Some people eventually have addictions as defense mechanisms. When we start to look for these symbols/triggers and defense mechanisms and consciously see we do this we can start to heal by sort of reversed engineering and this is how we can get to this old pain we had suppressed. Anyway its really interesting.

The important thing is: When you catch yourself in these illusions like: nobody likes me, i will stay fat forever, i will never have a good life again, to know these are illusions and thus not real. We feel this way because a situation unconsciously reminds us of something from when we were too young to do anything about the situations, when we were helpless and dependent on our parents. Then we couldn't do anything about them and it would feel like eternity but this is not true for us now since we are adults and can make changes and can take care of our own needs.

Once we consciously see which emotions we suppress we can diffuse these mechanisms and illusions and feel a lot better.

The mechanisms are:

1. Fear (anxiety for example)
2. Primary defense (things you say to yourself that are not nice and probably not even true(like nobody likes me), depressions are here)
3. False hope (obsessions, if i just do this as good as i can everything will work out) But this is an illusions.
4. False power (Alot of anger etc and judgement of others)
5. Denial of needs (a state of mind where one doesn't feel a lot of emotions, or rather none at all, like addictions too)

People go from fear to denial of needs up the ladder of defense mechanisms. With pri one can diffuse these mechanisms and live a better live. It is already helping for me but im still in the process.

Now im thinking maybe i should've made a new thread for this but im telling this here because i think it might be helpful for people like myself who struggle to get better. And i think its closely connected with TMS since its about suppressed emotions from the past. And a unique method for bringing them to the surface and thus diffusing these horrible defense mechanisms we needed when we were young children but don't need anymore now.

 

[BonnieLass]

Now im thinking maybe i should've made a new thread for this but im telling this here because i think it might be helpful for people like myself who struggle to get better.

I think this principle applies in this thread because the thought, "This works for everyone else but not for me," can be one of those defenses. Not saying it always is, but can be.

I'll look into that book. Thanks.

 

[Mark1122]

I think this principle applies in this thread because the thought, "This works for everyone else but not for me," can be one of those defenses. Not saying it always is, but can be.

I'll look into that book. Thanks.

Yeah thats true, you're welcome! Btw i think TMS might even be the defense mechanism: False hope. Creating pain to say: If my pain would be gone my life would be great, also because false hopes are a lot of times obsessions and TMSers are obsessed with the pain. And pain distracts us and thus might be a defense mechanism.

But maybe my life wouldn't be all great without pain. I always said to myself it would be great if i just didn't have the pain, but i came to realize that i was doing things i unconsciously didn't like all that much. Or things that weren't all that great. Now i am working on myself and not working on the pain at all.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Just don’t give up. If what you are doing is not working, simply acknowledge that and start the next method.

I'm trying, but I'm feeling awful strongly that there is no way out of this, and that I cannot bear it any longer.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

2) Also, you're "piqued," "frustrated," feel like people are telling you that you're doing it wrong, can't take it any more. All of that adds up to what Sarno says is at the root of TMS, namely, RAGE.

No question I'm full of rage, but it sure isn't repressed. The pain isn't protecting me from it, and I'm a hell of a lot angrier now than I was during the first few years of trying to address my pain from a TMS perspective.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

So you have to dump her (TMS remedies) for real. Even if there IS nothing after. You can't predict how it will be after you dump TMS and totally give up

Again, not sure what else I can do to do this. I've left this forum and dropped all TMS stuff for many months at a time. I dropped everything and travelled around Asia for 4 months without reading or talking about TMS once. It was hell.

 

[BloodMoon]

Now im thinking maybe i should've made a new thread for this but im telling this here because i think it might be helpful for people like myself who struggle to get better. And i think its closely connected with TMS since its about suppressed emotions from the past. And a unique method for bringing them to the surface and thus diffusing these horrible defense mechanisms we needed when we were young children but don't need anymore now.

I think this is appropriate here as eskimoeskimo (who started this thread) was asking for suggestions as to what else to try. I see that the English version/edition of the book 'Illusions' is not available - leastways not on amazon.uk or amazon.com - but there's a 'sister' book re PRI available on both websites by the same author called 'Past Reality Integration: 3 Steps to Mastering the Art of Conscious Living'. For anyone interested here are links to the appropriate uk and US webpages:

UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Past-Reality-Integration-Mastering-Conscious-ebook/dp/B005LBQNBS/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Past+Reality+Integration:+3+Steps+to+Mastering+the+Art+of+Conscious+Living&qid=1597574641&sr=8-1

USA: https://www.amazon.com/Past-Reality...keywords=Ingeborg+Bosch&qid=1597575754&sr=8-1

Thanks for posting about this, Mark - I'm going to download the 'sister' book on Kindle.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

It's not like I'm spending my days doing some kind of TMS work and it's time to move on. I don't even know what TMS work is anymore. There is no prescription. Most people seemed to have dropped all the journaling and daily reminders stuff. The rest is just a hodge-podge of contradictory CBT techniques. I'm just trying to live some kind of a life. But it's not going well, because the pain fills my consciousness all the time. It makes me miserable all the time. Dropping TMS and moving on is what I've been trying to do. And it's a disaster. So I'm back here to ask if there is anything else. Anything.

 

[BloodMoon]

Another tactic is to simply take the “self” out of it. What advice would you give a loved one? This one has been gold for me. Forces me to take away everything I think is so unique to me and just face reality. I truly want the best for my loved ones, and It’s easier to ignore their feelings and tell them what they need than it is my own. Find the conviction to do this to yourself.

Am going to try this tactic - thanks for posting it!

 

[Mark1122]

I think this is appropriate here as eskimoeskimo (who started this thread) was asking for suggestions as to what else to try. I see that the English version/edition of the book 'Illusions' is not available - leastways not on amazon.uk or amazon.com - but there's a 'sister' book re PRI available on both websites by the same author called 'Past Reality Integration: 3 Steps to Mastering the Art of Conscious Living'. For anyone interested here are links to the appropriate uk and US webpages:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Past-Reality-Integration-Mastering-Conscious-ebook/dp/B005LBQNBS/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Past+Reality+Integration:+3+Steps+to+Mastering+the+Art+of+Conscious+Living&qid=1597574641&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.com/Past-Reality...keywords=Ingeborg+Bosch&qid=1597575754&sr=8-1

Thanks for posting about this, Mark - I'm going to download the 'sister' book on Kindle.

Youre welcome. Perhaps this link works to illusions ebook:

https://play.google.com/store/books...urce=gbs_atb&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_atb

Let me know if it works for you and il put it into my post.

And this is her website in english:

https://www.pastrealityintegration.com/en/ (PRI, de kunst van bewust leven - Home)

 

[BloodMoon]

Youre welcome. Perhaps this link works to illusions ebook:

https://play.google.com/store/books...urce=gbs_atb&pcampaignid=books_booksearch_atb

Let me know if it works for you and il put it into my post.

Unfortunately, it comes up with a window in which it says: 'The item you requested is not available for purchase in your country.' (I'm in the UK.) But maybe it will be available to those in the USA via that link.

Thanks for the link to her website; I'll have a good look at that.

 

[BonnieLass]

No question I'm full of rage, but it sure isn't repressed. The pain isn't protecting me from it, and I'm a hell of a lot angrier now than I was during the first few years of trying to address my pain from a TMS perspective.

I feel like I'm beating up on you, and I don't want to come across that way. But I know you're looking for answers.

You are full of rage and acknowledge that. But it's not the feelings that we're aware of that cause the problem (TMS or other problems). It's unconscious feelings, in this case unconscious rage. I said somewhere earlier that your rage is the tip of the iceberg (or something like that). It's not the rage you're aware of that's causing your problem. It's not the rage that isn't repressed. It's the rage that is repressed. Unconscious is the important concept here, and it's a slippery one. Unfortunately, and paradoxically, when something is unconscious, by definition, we're not aware of it and can't be aware of it directly. It's a blind spot that we can only access indirectly. Your pain, for example. What's behind it is unconscious, in a blind spot.

We can only become aware of what's in the unconscious indirectly. By observing what things in other people and in the world push our hot buttons. Sometimes dreams can help, although I believe it's well nigh impossible to interpret our own dreams, because if we could think the thing consciously, we wouldn't need to dream it. Art can sometimes help-- drawing or spontaneous journaling without editing. Therapists do something called "sand play" with kids and adults where the client "acts out" situations with dolls and props and that can give a window into the unconscious. What themes and plots are you either magnetically drawn to or violently repulsed by in stories, movies, TV. The fact that you still have all this pain seems to me an indication that there is a lot in that blind spot that is repressed and wants to come out. It is speaking to you through the pain.

 

[miffybunny]

I feel like I'm beating up on you, and I don't want to come across that way. But I know you're looking for answers.

You are full of rage and acknowledge that. But it's not the feelings that we're aware of that cause the problem (TMS or other problems). It's unconscious feelings, in this case unconscious rage. I said somewhere earlier that your rage is the tip of the iceberg (or something like that). It's not the rage you're aware of that's causing your problem. It's not the rage that isn't repressed. It's the rage that is repressed. Unconscious is the important concept here, and it's a slippery one. Unfortunately, and paradoxically, when something is unconscious, by definition, we're not aware of it and can't be aware of it directly. It's a blind spot that we can only access indirectly. Your pain, for example. What's behind it is unconscious, in a blind spot.

We can only become aware of what's in the unconscious indirectly. By observing what things in other people and in the world push our hot buttons. Sometimes dreams can help, although I believe it's well nigh impossible to interpret our own dreams, because if we could think the thing consciously, we wouldn't need to dream it. Art can sometimes help-- drawing or spontaneous journaling without editing. Therapists do something called "sand play" with kids and adults where the client "acts out" situations with dolls and props and that can give a window into the unconscious. What themes and plots are you either magnetically drawn to or violently repulsed by in stories, movies, TV. The fact that you still have all this pain seems to me an indication that there is a lot in that blind spot that is repressed and wants to come out. It is speaking to you through the pain.

Exactly. All your comments resonate with me. "People are doing the best that they can from their own level of consciousness." Deepak Chopra. Whatever one thinks of Chopra, that's a good quote and it's true.

 

[BloodMoon]

Btw i think TMS might even be the defense mechanism: False hope. Creating pain to say: If my pain would be gone my life would be great, also because false hopes are a lot of times obsessions and TMSers are obsessed with the pain. And pain distracts us and thus might be a defense mechanism.

But maybe my life wouldn't be all great without pain. I always said to myself it would be great if i just didn't have the pain, but i came to realize that i was doing things i unconsciously didn't like all that much. Or things that weren't all that great. Now i am working on myself and not working on the pain at all.

Imo this is very profound and is getting the cogs whirring in my brain! In the early years (around a total of 10 years) of experiencing debilitating symptoms, I thought along the lines of: "if only the pain would go away, I could go to the theatre, cinema, go out for meals, go on holiday/vacation etc" but, at sometime at the beginning of the following 13 years of being disabled, I just adjusted my activities to those of a virtual 'shut-in'/housebound person (adjusted my activities to what I could tolerate pain-wise) and didn't think of what I was 'missing' out on. What you've made me realise is that I didn't actually enjoy going to the theatre, cinema and restaurants!...Not because I didn't like watching plays and movies and eating meals, but because of the things that one has to so often tolerate in connection with these things (e.g. flight delays, terrible service, people talking and rustling sweet/candy wrappers at the theatre and cinema, cramped and uncomfortable theatre seats etc) that spoiled these experiences for me. I meditate but I'm not more tolerant as a result, although I have recently found that I'm somewhat more accepting of life's irritations and disappointments when I take Eckhart Tolle's advice to "Accept this moment as if you had chosen it".

 

[Tms_joe]

TMS is a defense mechanism. This is known. It’s a diversion for you to focus on instead on the mental conflicts in your head. It comes from the deepest of places.

Imo this is very profound and is getting the cogs whirring in my brain! In the early years (around a total of 10 years) of experiencing debilitating symptoms, I thought along the lines of: "if only the pain would go away, I could go to the theatre, cinema, go out for meals, go on holiday/vacation etc" but, at sometime at the beginning of the following 13 years of being disabled, I just adjusted my activities to those of a virtual 'shut-in'/housebound person (adjusted my activities to what I could tolerate pain-wise) and didn't think of what I was 'missing' out on. What you've made me realise is that I didn't actually enjoy going to the theatre, cinema and restaurants!...Not because I didn't like watching plays and movies and eating meals, but because of the things that one has to so often tolerate in connection with these things (e.g. flight delays, terrible service, people talking and rustling sweet/candy wrappers at the theatre and cinema, cramped and uncomfortable theatre seats etc) that spoiled these experiences for me. I meditate but I'm not more tolerant as a result, although I have recently found that I'm somewhat more accepting of life's irritations and disappointments when I take Eckhart Tolle's advice to "Accept this moment as if you had chosen it".

 

[eskimoeskimo]

I feel like I'm beating up on you, and I don't want to come across that way. But I know you're looking for answers.

No no, please don't worry about that at all. I don't feel that way in the slightest, and I'm inured against any knocks at this point. I only care about getting better. I appreciate your responses.

You are full of rage and acknowledge that. But it's not the feelings that we're aware of that cause the problem (TMS or other problems). It's unconscious feelings, in this case unconscious rage. I said somewhere earlier that your rage is the tip of the iceberg (or something like that). It's not the rage you're aware of that's causing your problem. It's not the rage that isn't repressed.

I'm really doubtful about the repressed rage / diversion mechanism theory these days. The more I've learned about OCD (a disorder which I have), health anxiety (ditto), and neural circuitry in general, the more quaint and outdated the rage theory seems. I don't doubt that I've got huge stores of hidden rage (though I really do believe I'm quite in touch with what the basic flavor(s) of all that rage is/are). Okay, now what? I've journaled til I'm blue in the face more times than I can count. I've spent a small fortune on therapy. I've tried to speak to my subconscious, my inner child, give it what it needs, sooth, etc. Sarno said one only has to acknowledge it. Okay, I acknowledge it. Now what? To be honest, the Freudian aspect of Sarno was always a giant red flag for me. I believe Freud was a pretty nutty bloke, and the subconscious theory has always been dubious at best (to me).

It is my strong impression that, with a few notable exceptions, most of the tms 'experts' are moving away from the repressed rage stuff. Dr. Schubiner for example sometimes recommends doing some journaling or addressing some emotional stuff, but that is clearly not where the emphasis is. Now the emphasis seems to be letting go of the obsession and refocusing on life. That the pain is 'learned' in the brain and fear perpetuates it. And that there is physical tension resulting from anxiety. Which is basically just a behavioral A.C.T. approach. Which is a little confusing to me because ACT has been around forever, and definitely doesn't promise to be able to diminish pain, only to make life with pain more manageable, bearable, productive.

Sometimes dreams can help, although I believe it's well nigh impossible to interpret our own dreams, because if we could think the thing consciously, we wouldn't need to dream it.

My dreams are damned easy to interpret. They are a straightforward story of insecurity, rejection, embarrassment, health scares, accelerated aging, and social failings. They're so on the nose it's almost boring (if they weren't so anxiety inducing). That's what I mean when I say I know what the ingredients of my rage are. But that awareness hasn't done anything for me. My symptoms started during a painful breakup. Those dots looks all of 5 minutes to connect in, oh... 2012. I've written volumes on the subject, with id-abandon. There is no more material there. Changed nothing.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

TMS is a defense mechanism. This is known. It’s a diversion for you to focus on instead on the mental conflicts in your head. It comes from the deepest of places.

The diversion isn't working. I'm consumed with the pain and the mental conflicts in my head. Is it always a defense mechanism? I don't see what the pain is keeping me from facing. And sometimes I don't understand this framing of the brain as being some other being apart from 'me' trying to protect me. My brain is me.

Also, I've noticed that when I become really consumed by some other worry, which happens often, the pain doesn't diminish. It's just in addition to.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

@Tms_joe, if you have a minute could you tell me more about what you did to get better (if you have gotten better)? Meditation?

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Exactly. All your comments resonate with me. "People are doing the best that they can from their own level of consciousness." Deepak Chopra. Whatever one thinks of Chopra, that's a good quote and it's true.

Maybe my level of consciousness is just meager

 

[BonnieLass]

I'm really doubtful about the repressed rage / diversion mechanism theory these days.

My dreams are damned easy to interpret.

As my late husband (a pilot) used to say, "I'm out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas." You are THE expert on your situation. All the best to you.