What else is there - Seriously

[Sita]

I know someone who's into boxing, loves to beat up people and to be punched. He thinks it's a form of...meditation. Ha ha. Actually a form of release, calming down or letting go. I might try it too, sounds great!

 

[plum]

@Kozas Congratulations! I read your post about taking the long-term, serious approach, and now you will be well on your way. Keep going, don't expect linear results, and you will be fine. You have made a decision with a very firm intention, and this is what is required for lasting change. As mentioned before, the mentality change required is not much different than quitting a substance, losing weight, etc. Gimmicks and fads will only yield short-term results, if any. Consistency is key, even when progress appears to have stalled or gone backwards. I am really looking forward to your success story, no matter how long it is from now.

@eskimoeskimo I have been watching this thread when I have the time to do so, and I hesitate to respond yet again, but as several of us have stated, we feel for you because we've been there. I also decided to respond because I know many other people are reading this thread, so it's not just for you.

You have mastered suffering. This is not to say that you have done this consciously, as no one wants to suffer. But you unconsciously practiced the thoughts, words, feelings of suffering so often that you have become extremely efficient at it. You just haven't realized how much you do this, and/or haven't put enough energy into changing it, or you wouldn't be here.

Practice of anything, good or bad, just makes you better at that thing. At some point it becomes effortless, like a high level dancer or pro athlete.

You have every right to feel and think the way you do. This is not a judgment of you personally. But it it this constant repetition, and validation of that repetition, that is keeping you suffering.

I love to read personal stories about people who have healed themselves of ailments, whether TMS-related or not, because the individual process is fascinating. Recently I listened to an in-depth story of someone who healed themselves from later-stage cancer after regular treatments failed her. She said one day amidst all the suffering, chemo side effects, depression, and potentially impending death that she decided to take matters into her own hands. The first thing she did was to carry a notebook around and make a quick note every single time she had a negative thought about anything. Very quickly she filled the notepad up, and she was shocked to find out how often she really thought/felt awful things (understandably so!). This was her first turning point, because she finally became self-aware that a vast majority of her thoughts/feelings were destructive. She became the observer.

And as we've mentioned repeatedly, thoughts and feelings create chemical releases in the body, which over time causes dysfunction, and then influence thoughts and feelings, and the cycle continues.

She then decided she was going to meditate every day, even if only for a few minutes, and she wouldn't get up from that meditation until she consciously changed how she felt. Sometimes she could do this quickly, sometimes it took over an hour. She said many times she felt as though she wasn't making progress, and sometimes even felt that she was fighting a losing battle. But she kept going, little by little, every day. She created strength when she thought she had none. She'd catch herself slipping back into old thoughts and feelings throughout the day, and she'd shift them as well as she could. She was never able to do this 100% of the time, but she kept trying. After a full year of this approach, her body slowly started to heal. She had stopped all drug treatments before taking this on herself, because they weren't working very well, and they were causing too many side effects, so this change wasn't due to any medicine. Within another year or so she was cancer free.

This is just one story, one process. Is everyone's healing approach going to be the same? Of course not. But the underlying process IS the same. Anyone here who has shared their healing stories have one major thing in common: We all became aware of how we were keeping ourselves stuck, took responsibility for our thoughts/feelings/actions, and put the time and energy into changing those things. Not for a few months or a few weeks, but for good. Can I do this 100% of the time? No. But it wasn't necessary to do 100% to heal. When you have the self-awareness to catch yourself slipping into old patterns, you can stop it faster the more you practice it.

Not everyone will heal in the same way, which is why things can get confusing with so many opinions. But if you look deeper, you'll see the commonalities in all of the approaches.

We have also discussed at length the ways in which people sabotage recovery (these things are very clearly listed in 'Mental Health Through Will Training' (MHTWT):

Romanticism and Intellectualism in thinking, Defeatism, and Self-Diagnosis (not fully accepting a TMS diagnosis is a from of self-diagnosis) just to name of few of the major ones.

This thread alone is littered with you doing all of them, repeatedly. You are constantly trying to validate how you feel, and your current situation, but in doing so you will just get more of the same.

You keep mentioning all the possibly terrifying things that can come from your symptoms, but in all this time, how many of them have come to fruition? You're still alive. In all the times I had intense heart palpitations, I never had a heart attack. It wasn't until I got to the point where I'd start laughing when it happened that they started to go away. There is always a 'what if' with anything. Nothing is totally safe if you really want to look at things that way. The choice in how you view it is yours, but until you recognize that fear is winning, and consciously try to change that in whatever way you can, you will remain stuck. And not just change it once and go 'why am I not healed yet?' but over and over, thousands of times if necessary, until you un-train the old habit and create a new one.

In fact in MHTWT, there is an entire chapter called 'The patient wants the ends of health, not its means.'

Making these changes when you are suffering can be very difficult, but it's not impossible. I also like to watch weight-loss success stories, because they are inspiring. Do you think someone with hundreds of pounds to lose will see changes every day once they start on their process? Of course not. But they keep going because the bigger picture is always kept in mind.

Permanent change takes a level of decision, discipline, and intention greater than the addiction to your current situation.

So take all of that high-powered acumen, intelligence, and frustration you have, and look ONLY at yourself. Read all your posts, but imagine they are from someone else, and maybe you'll start to see your pattern. Take full stock of absolutely all your thoughts, feelings, words and actions. Become the observer to these things, like @Kozas is just starting to do, and you will have your clear starting point. Then don't wait to feel better to start changing them, just start changing them now, over and over, until it starts to get easier. Practice a new pattern, and sooner or later you will live it without needing to put as much effort into it. Let the healing come from that change, but don't expect it to be fast.

There is no one set way to do this, but we've given a general template to go on. You are extremely sharp, so find your own way if need be. Different approaches work for different people, so find or make yours.

For expedience, here is a link to a free pdf of Low’s book. It is quite simply brilliant. @Hillbilly suggested working with Recovery International which sounds ideal for those truly stuck, but if this is not possible or desirable I strongly suggest you read this book. The panel discussions are particularly insightful and probably quite close to the bone.

If you want to heal, you can. It’s all in this book. Start there. Be brutally honest with yourself. I’m finding it very helpful in dealing with elderly parents (god bless them).

Go now, and immediately start reading.

https://www.bookyards.com/en/book/details/17328/Mental-Health-Through-WillTraning (Mental Health Through Will-Traning by A Low Abraham - Free PDF books - Bookyards)

 

[plum]

As someone who was an epically slow learner and who also got terribly lost in weeds of digging through the past over and over (old school, misunderstood Sarno), I feel bound to clarify an essential point that turned my recovery around.

Healing has nothing to do with abstract ideas of faith in the method. This is not a faith cure. I spent years in the mire because I didn’t understand what TMS was. I thought I did but I didn’t and that’s why I couldn’t recover.

Until you get it. Until you understand the whole shebang including how you created your situation and how you are perpetuating it, you won’t recover. Understanding completely eliminates the language of ‘trying’ or ‘giving it a go’ which are actually symptomatic of the problem.

It’s often said that TMS is the knowledge cure. I disagree. Knowledge is useless if you don’t act upon it (procrastination, faff, blunder, endless excuse making...). This is a WISDOM cure. You have to own your failings and indulgences (as humiliating as this may be), and get passed them to the point where you kick your old neurotic self into touch and craft a strong, healthy new person.

There are many excellent resources that will help you to understand why you are suffering and more importantly, will help you to transcend it. Have you truly read them? Applied the teachings to yourself consistently?

I remember Eric “Herbie” Watson talking about Abraham Low on the old tmshelp site! And I never bothered to seek it out. What kind of self-indulgent nonsense is that? I had to leave this forum and abandon healing completely before I started to recover and then I plateaued for years.

I recall the first time the pain went away completely. It was astonishing. It came back. Came and went. By this time I had discovered Joe Dispenza (whom I had been put off reading due to a disparaging thread on this forum) and he changed my entire thinking on TMS. I began to get it. The penny was finally dropping.

I’m reading Abraham Low now and I wish I’d read him years ago. I’m not ashamed to acknowledge all the self-pity, tragedy and trauma that have ‘hijacked’ my life and kept me stuck and bitterly unhappy, but to know and to not do, is to not know. It’s a glorious day when you seize this bullshit by the throat and fling it out of your life for good.

Everyone who has recovered has been exactly where the sufferers are now. Every single one of us. We know. We have felt the way you feel, thought the way you think...until we stopped and consciously changed those feelings and thoughts. No faith. No hope. No miracles. Just a patient, self-compassionate, dark-humoured commitment to change. And until you do the same, you won’t recover.

 

[plum]

I know someone who's into boxing, loves to beat up people and to be punched. He thinks it's a form of...meditation. Ha ha. Actually a form of release, calming down or letting go. I might try it too, sounds great!

Tempting. Very tempting.
But seriously I can see how it’s a form of active meditation, much like certain types of dance can be.

I like deep cleaning for the same reason. It clears more than muck and grime, it’s cathartic and like all hard work, good for the soul (and body). I find I can work out a good many mental tangles too. My dad finds gardening achieves the same goal but lacking a garden I’m contenting myself with Spring Cleaning the balcony. It’s a horrible grotty job (goddam pigeons) but I love having done it.

 

[tgirl]

As someone who was an epically slow learner and who also got terribly lost in weeds of digging through the past over and over (old school, misunderstood Sarno), I feel bound to clarify an essential point that turned my recovery around.

Healing has nothing to do with abstract ideas of faith in the method. This is not a faith cure. I spent years in the mire because I didn’t understand what TMS was. I thought I did but I didn’t and that’s why I couldn’t recover.

Until you get it. Until you understand the whole shebang including how you created your situation and how you are perpetuating it, you won’t recover. Understanding completely eliminates the language of ‘trying’ or ‘giving it a go’ which are actually symptomatic of the problem.

It’s often said that TMS is the knowledge cure. I disagree. Knowledge is useless if you don’t act upon it (procrastination, faff, blunder, endless excuse making...). This is a WISDOM cure. You have to own your failings and indulgences (as humiliating as this may be), and get passed them to the point where you kick your old neurotic self into touch and craft a strong, healthy new person.

There are many excellent resources that will help you to understand why you are suffering and more importantly, will help you to transcend it. Have you truly read them? Applied the teachings to yourself consistently?

I remember Eric “Herbie” Watson talking about Abraham Low on the old tmshelp site! And I never bothered to seek it out. What kind of self-indulgent nonsense is that? I had to leave this forum and abandon healing completely before I started to recover and then I plateaued for years.

I recall the first time the pain went away completely. It was astonishing. It came back. Came and went. By this time I had discovered Joe Dispenza (whom I had been put off reading due to a disparaging thread on this forum) and he changed my entire thinking on TMS. I began to get it. The penny was finally dropping.

I’m reading Abraham Low now and I wish I’d read him years ago. I’m not ashamed to acknowledge all the self-pity, tragedy and trauma that have ‘hijacked’ my life and kept me stuck and bitterly unhappy, but to know and to not do, is to not know. It’s a glorious day when you seize this bullshit by the throat and fling it out of your life for good.

Everyone who has recovered has been exactly where the sufferers are now. Every single one of us. We know. We have felt the way you feel, thought the way you think...until we stopped and consciously changed those feelings and thoughts. No faith. No hope. No miracles. Just a patient, self-compassionate, dark-humoured commitment to change. And until you do the same, you won’t recover.

As always, beautifully put Plum. I think you’ve given me another needed ‘kick in the pants’. Really, how many of those do I need! I’m going to read his book. xo

 

[Balsa11]

As someone who was an epically slow learner and who also got terribly lost in weeds of digging through the past over and over (old school, misunderstood Sarno), I feel bound to clarify an essential point that turned my recovery around.

Healing has nothing to do with abstract ideas of faith in the method. This is not a faith cure. I spent years in the mire because I didn’t understand what TMS was. I thought I did but I didn’t and that’s why I couldn’t recover.

Until you get it. Until you understand the whole shebang including how you created your situation and how you are perpetuating it, you won’t recover. Understanding completely eliminates the language of ‘trying’ or ‘giving it a go’ which are actually symptomatic of the problem.

It’s often said that TMS is the knowledge cure. I disagree. Knowledge is useless if you don’t act upon it (procrastination, faff, blunder, endless excuse making...). This is a WISDOM cure. You have to own your failings and indulgences (as humiliating as this may be), and get passed them to the point where you kick your old neurotic self into touch and craft a strong, healthy new person.

There are many excellent resources that will help you to understand why you are suffering and more importantly, will help you to transcend it. Have you truly read them? Applied the teachings to yourself consistently?

I remember Eric “Herbie” Watson talking about Abraham Low on the old tmshelp site! And I never bothered to seek it out. What kind of self-indulgent nonsense is that? I had to leave this forum and abandon healing completely before I started to recover and then I plateaued for years.

I recall the first time the pain went away completely. It was astonishing. It came back. Came and went. By this time I had discovered Joe Dispenza (whom I had been put off reading due to a disparaging thread on this forum) and he changed my entire thinking on TMS. I began to get it. The penny was finally dropping.

I’m reading Abraham Low now and I wish I’d read him years ago. I’m not ashamed to acknowledge all the self-pity, tragedy and trauma that have ‘hijacked’ my life and kept me stuck and bitterly unhappy, but to know and to not do, is to not know. It’s a glorious day when you seize this bullshit by the throat and fling it out of your life for good.

Everyone who has recovered has been exactly where the sufferers are now. Every single one of us. We know. We have felt the way you feel, thought the way you think...until we stopped and consciously changed those feelings and thoughts. No faith. No hope. No miracles. Just a patient, self-compassionate, dark-humoured commitment to change. And until you do the same, you won’t recover.

Even something as simple as wallowing as little as possible works pretty well

 

[TrustIt]

By this time I had discovered Joe Dispenza (whom I had been put off reading due to a disparaging thread on this forum) and he changed my entire thinking on TMS.

i have commented on several threads about dr. joe dispenza. i am a huge fan. his books and workshops saved me so much anguish. i found that i was a different person in that environment....away from my routine, out of my comfort zone. i wondered why that was. it made no sense that all my "stuff" should just vanish for 5 days and then come back when i came back home. that comfort zone can be like the "battered wife syndrome", in that the familiarity, bad as it feels, SEEMS to be more comfortable than the unknown. we become addicted to the chemicals generated by negative emotions without realizing it. i learned that the unknown is where the secret lies. bottom line is to just LET GO. all of it...the desperate need to fix and trying to THINK our way through it. it's the thinking that perpetuates the old self. who are you if you aren't your name? your career? your body? your pain? i strongly suggest going to dr. joe's YT channel and just binge watch the healing testimonies. they are just as inspiring as those TMS testimonials on Steve Ozanich's channel. like @plum said, it compliments the TMS approach. of all his books, i suggest "You Are the Placebo". while i'm on the subject of helpful books, i would also like to suggest David Hawkins' "Letting Go".

 

[Sita]

Here is one transformation, Robert, for dr. Joe. This story spoke to me, I can relate. Less than 5 min.

 

[RogueWave]

Brilliantly stated, @plum and @TrustIt. I wish there was a ‘love’ button instead of just ‘like.’

If anyone wants follow up on Dispenza’s stuff, I have a lecture series of his on my Google drive. Please send me a DM and I’ll give the link. Of all of the lectures he’s done, I think it’s his best work. Very clear explanations with videos, scans, etc depicting how we get stuck in survival states, now it affects the body, and how to get out of it.

It’s funny looking back now, but a buddy of mine many years ago was joking around and he said ‘I bet if you put paint on peoples’ shoes in the morning, and tracked every step they took throughout the whole day, that most days they would step in exactly the same footprints, over and over.’ We laughed about this, but it is amazing how true this is (along with thoughts, words, etc) once you start to really pay attention.

 

[Hillbilly]

Thanks to those of you who posted the free resources offered by Dr. Joe. That’s just the type of thing I came looking for here in hopes of helping my son regain his full faculties.

Public forums aren’t my thing anymore, so I won’t be posting publicly again. Please send me direct messages if I can be of assistance. I wish all of you a full, healthy and happy life.

 

[MariaK]

I give up. Can't live with it any longer

This is really long, because I spent the other night reading the entire 30 page thread. Except for some of the unrelated posts. I still have more to say, but that's for another day. Hopefully, it will help you, Eskimo or someone else.

I think, for me, part of the problem with this approach is that it is so abstract and nebulous. It's very hard for people to explain what helped them. And many times they don't take the time to even try. I've made progress with various symptoms that I've had for 27 years. Physical pain wasn't one of my symptoms until I began to realize I had a mind/body illness. Then it began trying to fool me with all kinds of physical pain. Because pain was never one of my issues, it was plain to see what was happening, especially once I learned what symptom substitution was. Usually I am able to make the pain go away in a matter of seconds, sometimes a few minutes. Mostly by ignoring the symptom and not being afraid it is back and will never go away, etc. This took a laser like focus to learn how to do. I recently had success with my main sticking point, which is my Chronic Fatigues (CFS). I haven't tried most of the things recommended on here or most of the things that you've tried. Yet, I'm making progress, so I know something about what I'm talking about. But despite the progress I've made, I get nothing really from some of the statements from people saying to "just get on with your life" or "accept it" or "just let go". It definitely wouldn't have helped me when I started. And I don't feel it's very useful now. I'm not criticizing other people's truths. People can only share what has worked for them and use the language that means something to them. But I'm saying that, so that you don't judge yourself for not "getting it". In case you are judging yourself.

Also, it seems like people often talk about those ideas as a starting point. And I view them as an end point that you get to through a certain process. I kind of get what people are getting at, because in the past year I've reached a new place of letting go and not thinking about it. But that was through a long process. And I'd have to do a lot of thinking to explain what that process has been. Trying to overcome my illnesses has always had a very abstract quality.

I also don't think that using the approaches on this website are simple or easy. And that if you just did it right, you'd be well. If it were so easy, why are there so many people constantly asking for clarification about how to do it? Why are there people who have thorough knowledge of how it works, who have overcome say 10 or 20 years of severe pain. Only to have a new illness pop up that they struggle to overcome? Why are there so many people who mention they didn't get well, until they found the right book or the right explanation that finally made sense to them? And it's not the same book for everyone. And why do different people have polar opposite beliefs about how it works? My point is that I don't think it is simple or quick or easy. At least, not for everyone. It's one thing if you know that you are actively avoiding doing things people have suggested, eskimoeskimo. But you keep asking "how" (to accept and let go and get on with your life) and I don't seem to see a lot of people taking the time to explain it in detail. People who understand it way better than I do. Maybe they have, repeatedly, in your other posts over the past ten years. And that's why they're so frustrated with you. I only just discovered you a few weeks ago.

If I hadn't already done a ton of my own thinking and analyzing before I found the TMS website, I wouldn't have had any idea what to practice and what to disregard or hold off on. One of the first things I learned was that I'm supposed to figure out what I'm feeling all the time. But I knew that that was just going to keep me stuck in the very thing that was the problem. I needed to uncouple my mind from the reflex to constantly ask what was wrong with me. And that took me a couple years at least, of persistent work. I had been sick for several decades, so it was such a reflex to ask that question. If I hadn't thought for myself, I would have done what the website says and I would have felt worse and not had a clue why and would have likely assumed it was my fault. Like others have mentioned, you need to figure out your own path. I would recommend just letting go of trying to decide if you'll stay on this forum or not, or use this approach or not. Just put the decision on the shelf for a few weeks, if you know how to do that. What helped me to very slowly figure things out, was to take those few moments when I would feel a little better and try to understand what I was doing that made me feel better. It was a very slow process, but it has helped me get well. I know that overanalyzing things can be a problem for a lot of us. But for me, I feel like I have to analyze things until I'm ready not to.

The main thing that has helped me is ignoring the symptom and not fearing it or projecting into the future that it will come back. But that took a lot of practice. Persistent practice. I can't even have mild fear about it or I will have symptoms. I can see how for some people that feels impossible to do, especially with physical pain. And I don't think I would have been able to do it if I had discovered Sarno's books earlier in my illness. I would have been like, "I'm having like half a dozen symptoms all at the same time. I have no idea how to ignore them!" It is only because I reached a point of desperation with my health, where I had to go into a kind of emotionally cut off, compartmentalized state, that I was able to get a tiny bit of relief from my symptoms. I know that is the opposite of what is recommended on this site. But that is what I had to do for several years. Before that I was severely suicidal about the state of my life and how debilitated I was. It suddenly occurred to me, after 15 years of being sick, that I might never get well. I always assumed I'd get well. I obsessed all the time about killing myself. So, I went into a kind of denial. It gave me just enough relief from my symptoms, that I could then learn how to ignore them. I don't see how I could have learned any other way, because I was having so many symptoms and some that I wasn't even aware of. Each of us has our own unique psychology that makes up who were are and what issues are contributing to our illness. And so that is just the truth for me, that I had to cut off like that emotionally. I was in a total crisis. I had a ton of other stressful things that were going on in my life at the same time, that I had no clue were exacerbating my symptoms. And several years later, I learned from reading an article of Dr. Schubiner's sometimes my depression and anxiety were symptoms substitutions. So, I was constantly being bombarded with symptoms and couldn't get relief. Now it helps me, even when I have legitimate reasons to be depressed, to check in with myself to see if it is symptom substitution. I've noticed that a depression will kick in, when I had just been feeling hopeful a few days before or when I was having important insights.

I could relate to what you said Eskimo about the place in one of Dr. Sarno's books where he lists like 5 personality types that are TMS types. I think it is on the TMS Wiki page, too. I remember seeing that and saying, "You've just listed like 5 different types of people. From the codependent door mat, to the rage-aholic. Anyone can find themselves in that list." It seemed kind of fishy to me. Not that I think Dr. Sarno was up to anything intentional. But it did make me question the approach a little. Or a mother he mentions, who is pissed off that her husband isn't doing his fair share. And I thought, "Then shouldn't most moms have TMS?" It seemed like he was saying life causes TMS, which wasn't much of an explanation. I didn't want to let myself be healed by a sort of false idea. But I knew I had symptom substitution, so I knew I had TMS. On very rare occasions I could make a connection between an event and symptoms. And I believed that he had helped people. Though, I questioned his statistics a bit, once I found tmswiki and saw how many people were struggling. I didn't have to believe all of it, is what I'm saying. Or need all of it to make sense and fit together. (A hard sell, I know). I just needed to believe there was a psychological cause to my illness.

I know I haven't answered a lot of the "how" question for you, yet either! I need to think about that more. But one important realization for me, is how some of my symptoms are caused by the things I tell myself about my illness. So, if you haven't done it already, maybe it would help you to journal about the negative things you tell yourself in relation to your illness. You mentioned guilt for example. I realized that part of my fatigue was a deep, deep, deep message that I don't deserve this moment. I don't deserve it, because I'm not functioning well and I'm not working. And because I don't deserve to enjoy this moment, I can't ever get any relief, so that I can recharge my batteries and have a little energy. I mean "deep" as in deeply ingrained. It is so sad to think of the negative things I've been telling myself for decades, all while suffering horribly with very little clue how to get out. Judgement and blame just keep me stuck. So, for me, compassion for myself and not being judgemental are keys to getting better.

 

[miffybunny]

I'm going to use the pronoun "you" in the universal sense for anyone who needs to hear this:

It's definitely not easy, but it is simple. It come down to a few basic principles. The human body is actually not THAT complicated. Once you have visited a slew of doctors and everything catastrophic and life threatening has been ruled out (infections, broken bones, terminal cancer), THEN it is psychological. Point blank. Period. End of Story. Stop looking for reasons as to why it's not, and STOP arguing with people why it could be, because trust and believe, that's not how to get our of chronic pain, which is simply a learned habit. Start being honest with yourself and ask yourself why you don't really want to get better. What would that actually mean if you weren't "sick" or "suffering"??? Who would you be without that pain or those symptoms to distract you and preoccupy you every second? Be honest with YOURSELF. Everyone who has come out the other side, as @plum said, gets it! We have all been there but at a certain point you have to take responsibility for yourself, stop making excuses and cut the victim crap. Self compassion and self pity are 2 different things. Self pity is self indulgent and will keep you stuck.

As far as the principles that apply to EVERYONE, they are as follows: Knowledge of how the brain works (this is logic and science), Emotions (dealing with them), Thoughts (changing chronic thought patterns that actually alter psychology and the perception of pain), Mindset (of indifference to symptoms as they are harmless) and lastly, addressing life stressors and your own life. THAT'S IT. What that looks like exactly, is for YOU to figure out. You are the author of your own story. No one can tell you HOW to live your life.

With regards to personality traits, I just want to address your comments about the profile list, @MariaK for the benefit of others reading here. There is a general type : people pleaser, goodist, responsible, high achiever, overly conscientious, worrier, perfectionistic and self critical. I've never seen rage-aholic or codependent once on any list. If anything TMS'ers tend and repress rage and are highly self motivated. While it's true that personality is incredibly nuanced and individual , all the TMS literature points to a certain profile and that is why anxiety in this population manifests in the body. It's a more sophisticated defense mechanism because the person is really only hurting themselves. People who cope with anxiety in different ways do not present with TMS on this level of chronicity or severity. I do certainly agree with you about the limiting beliefs and stories we tell ourselves, that create these learned habits and memorized suffering. Even if you don't fit the personality profile, it doesn't matter. All it takes is thought habits or fear or preoccupation or repression of emotions to perpetuate TMS. As Dr. Schubiner said, it only requires one of these things to act as a catalyst for the brain's strategy.

 

[plum]

This is really long, because I spent the other night reading the entire 30 page thread. Except for some of the unrelated posts. I still have more to say, but that's for another day. Hopefully, it will help you, Eskimo or someone else.

I think, for me, part of the problem with this approach is that it is so abstract and nebulous. It's very hard for people to explain what helped them. And many times they don't take the time to even try. I've made progress with various symptoms that I've had for 27 years. Physical pain wasn't one of my symptoms until I began to realize I had a mind/body illness. Then it began trying to fool me with all kinds of physical pain. Because pain was never one of my issues, it was plain to see what was happening, especially once I learned what symptom substitution was. Usually I am able to make the pain go away in a matter of seconds, sometimes a few minutes. Mostly by ignoring the symptom and not being afraid it is back and will never go away, etc. This took a laser like focus to learn how to do. I recently had success with my main sticking point, which is my Chronic Fatigues (CFS). I haven't tried most of the things recommended on here or most of the things that you've tried. Yet, I'm making progress, so I know something about what I'm talking about. But despite the progress I've made, I get nothing really from some of the statements from people saying to "just get on with your life" or "accept it" or "just let go". It definitely wouldn't have helped me when I started. And I don't feel it's very useful now. I'm not criticizing other people's truths. People can only share what has worked for them and use the language that means something to them. But I'm saying that, so that you don't judge yourself for not "getting it". In case you are judging yourself.

Also, it seems like people often talk about those ideas as a starting point. And I view them as an end point that you get to through a certain process. I kind of get what people are getting at, because in the past year I've reached a new place of letting go and not thinking about it. But that was through a long process. And I'd have to do a lot of thinking to explain what that process has been. Trying to overcome my illnesses has always had a very abstract quality.

I also don't think that using the approaches on this website are simple or easy. And that if you just did it right, you'd be well. If it were so easy, why are there so many people constantly asking for clarification about how to do it? Why are there people who have thorough knowledge of how it works, who have overcome say 10 or 20 years of severe pain. Only to have a new illness pop up that they struggle to overcome? Why are there so many people who mention they didn't get well, until they found the right book or the right explanation that finally made sense to them? And it's not the same book for everyone. And why do different people have polar opposite beliefs about how it works? My point is that I don't think it is simple or quick or easy. At least, not for everyone. It's one thing if you know that you are actively avoiding doing things people have suggested, eskimoeskimo. But you keep asking "how" (to accept and let go and get on with your life) and I don't seem to see a lot of people taking the time to explain it in detail. People who understand it way better than I do. Maybe they have, repeatedly, in your other posts over the past ten years. And that's why they're so frustrated with you. I only just discovered you a few weeks ago.

If I hadn't already done a ton of my own thinking and analyzing before I found the TMS website, I wouldn't have had any idea what to practice and what to disregard or hold off on. One of the first things I learned was that I'm supposed to figure out what I'm feeling all the time. But I knew that that was just going to keep me stuck in the very thing that was the problem. I needed to uncouple my mind from the reflex to constantly ask what was wrong with me. And that took me a couple years at least, of persistent work. I had been sick for several decades, so it was such a reflex to ask that question. If I hadn't thought for myself, I would have done what the website says and I would have felt worse and not had a clue why and would have likely assumed it was my fault. Like others have mentioned, you need to figure out your own path. I would recommend just letting go of trying to decide if you'll stay on this forum or not, or use this approach or not. Just put the decision on the shelf for a few weeks, if you know how to do that. What helped me to very slowly figure things out, was to take those few moments when I would feel a little better and try to understand what I was doing that made me feel better. It was a very slow process, but it has helped me get well. I know that overanalyzing things can be a problem for a lot of us. But for me, I feel like I have to analyze things until I'm ready not to.

The main thing that has helped me is ignoring the symptom and not fearing it or projecting into the future that it will come back. But that took a lot of practice. Persistent practice. I can't even have mild fear about it or I will have symptoms. I can see how for some people that feels impossible to do, especially with physical pain. And I don't think I would have been able to do it if I had discovered Sarno's books earlier in my illness. I would have been like, "I'm having like half a dozen symptoms all at the same time. I have no idea how to ignore them!" It is only because I reached a point of desperation with my health, where I had to go into a kind of emotionally cut off, compartmentalized state, that I was able to get a tiny bit of relief from my symptoms. I know that is the opposite of what is recommended on this site. But that is what I had to do for several years. Before that I was severely suicidal about the state of my life and how debilitated I was. It suddenly occurred to me, after 15 years of being sick, that I might never get well. I always assumed I'd get well. I obsessed all the time about killing myself. So, I went into a kind of denial. It gave me just enough relief from my symptoms, that I could then learn how to ignore them. I don't see how I could have learned any other way, because I was having so many symptoms and some that I wasn't even aware of. Each of us has our own unique psychology that makes up who were are and what issues are contributing to our illness. And so that is just the truth for me, that I had to cut off like that emotionally. I was in a total crisis. I had a ton of other stressful things that were going on in my life at the same time, that I had no clue were exacerbating my symptoms. And several years later, I learned from reading an article of Dr. Schubiner's sometimes my depression and anxiety were symptoms substitutions. So, I was constantly being bombarded with symptoms and couldn't get relief. Now it helps me, even when I have legitimate reasons to be depressed, to check in with myself to see if it is symptom substitution. I've noticed that a depression will kick in, when I had just been feeling hopeful a few days before or when I was having important insights.

I could relate to what you said Eskimo about the place in one of Dr. Sarno's books where he lists like 5 personality types that are TMS types. I think it is on the TMS Wiki page, too. I remember seeing that and saying, "You've just listed like 5 different types of people. From the codependent door mat, to the rage-aholic. Anyone can find themselves in that list." It seemed kind of fishy to me. Not that I think Dr. Sarno was up to anything intentional. But it did make me question the approach a little. Or a mother he mentions, who is pissed off that her husband isn't doing his fair share. And I thought, "Then shouldn't most moms have TMS?" It seemed like he was saying life causes TMS, which wasn't much of an explanation. I didn't want to let myself be healed by a sort of false idea. But I knew I had symptom substitution, so I knew I had TMS. On very rare occasions I could make a connection between an event and symptoms. And I believed that he had helped people. Though, I questioned his statistics a bit, once I found tmswiki and saw how many people were struggling. I didn't have to believe all of it, is what I'm saying. Or need all of it to make sense and fit together. (A hard sell, I know). I just needed to believe there was a psychological cause to my illness.

I know I haven't answered a lot of the "how" question for you, yet either! I need to think about that more. But one important realization for me, is how some of my symptoms are caused by the things I tell myself about my illness. So, if you haven't done it already, maybe it would help you to journal about the negative things you tell yourself in relation to your illness. You mentioned guilt for example. I realized that part of my fatigue was a deep, deep, deep message that I don't deserve this moment. I don't deserve it, because I'm not functioning well and I'm not working. And because I don't deserve to enjoy this moment, I can't ever get any relief, so that I can recharge my batteries and have a little energy. I mean "deep" as in deeply ingrained. It is so sad to think of the negative things I've been telling myself for decades, all while suffering horribly with very little clue how to get out. Judgement and blame just keep me stuck. So, for me, compassion for myself and not being judgemental are keys to getting better.

Maria,

it’s incredibly generous of you to craft such a long post for Eskimo but perhaps because you are new here you don’t truly appreciate how much time, love, explanation and support a good many of us have given to him and countless other people both on the forum and in private. What we have written in this thread is a potent distillation of our many posts (I have almost reached 2,000 messages), and as such offers condensed collective wisdom. Our personal journeys with TMS can easily be accessed by anyone desiring to understand how we reached this point, all our past posts and comments are available for reading.

My own healing ran contra to much of the proscribed advice yet it still delivered me to these same truths. I have shared much of my struggles over the years I have been here and spent hours delving through the minutiae to help others. We all have. We’ve all penned reams about how we’ve healed.

I feel it’s important to clarify this lest you mistakenly believe we are being casual and cavalier when we have been anything but. The people on this forum are some of the most generous, devoted and loving souls I have ever known, and all give grandly of their insights and time. I think this is worthy of respect.

 

[plum]

This extract is germane to the current discussion. As someone who has experienced suicidal ideation many times and has used many of the phrases listed here I completely understand how wretched this state is...but it is self-pitying victimhood. There truly comes a point where you have to own this, and to do so is a pivotal act of compassion whereby you have the choice to stop accommodating these behaviours and decide to change. What greater act of self-love can there be than to forgive yourself this chaos and choose to do what is necessary to heal. It’s also an act of love to share this with someone who is desperately struggling because you know that this is the lifeline they need.

edit: my husband has had Parkinson’s for 16 years and he has never, not once indulged in self-pity of this kind because he has taught himself to be strong, peaceful, gentle with himself and aware of this beautiful quote: “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about”.

In learning to tend to our own pain, excesses and indulgences we are not imposing upon others, people who may be struggling with unimaginable burdens and stresses. TMS is harmless. Awful but actually harmless. If we are prepared to put ourselves through the tumbler we can emerge exquisitely polished.

MENTAL HEALTH THROUGH WILL-TRAINING pages 197-198

Most suspect of insincerity and most damaging to the patient's reputation is his incurable fondness for monstrously exaggerating the intenseness of his symptoms. If month after month and year after year he clamors that he "simply can't stand it," that "if something isn't done immediately" he is
"surely going to end it all"; that he "can't take it any longer"; and that today he is "positively at the end of his rope"; if these hackneyed phrases are repeated monotonously spell after spell and tantrum after tantrum the relatives cannot fail to realize how well the patient "can stand it," how little he is inclined to"end it all," and how the rope has a mysterious way of lengthen- ing without reaching its end. The threats are then ignored and the alarms treated with contemptuous indifference. There is
no point mulitplying these examples although it would be easy for me to cull additional hundreds or thousands from my records.

They all tell the same story: the nervous symptom is not con- vincing, and if the nervous patient wants to be believed he must make it his supreme goal to compel conviction. That's what Caroline did. In a panic which seemed to shake her with elemental force she did not cry for help but thought of one thing only: to convince her husband that her plight was beyond remedy.

That the patient's complaint sounds unconvincing to the relatives is a calamity. But that calamity turns into outright tragedy if the patient is unable to convince himself. And con-viction is denied him irrevocably.


If a person is unable to believe himself he loses or weakens his self-respect. If he is unable to make others believe him he loses or weakens their respect for him, that is, he ruins or im- pairs his reputation. It is difficult to live without proper self- respect. But life becomes an almost unbearable affliction if both self-respect and reputation are wanting or markedly defective. From this vantage point it is easy to understand the tragic plight of the long-term nervous patient.

After years of futile and ludi- crous complaining his self-respect is in tatters and his reputation torn to shreds. He could restore both should he decide resolutely to give up his plaints and lamentations. If he fails to do that he is doomed to lead a life of indignity and self-contempt, a life of stigmatization and social isolation.

An existence of this kind is possible only if somehow, by hook or by crook, the illusion of uncontrollability is maintained and fortified against all evidence to the contrary. The doctrine of helplessness and hopelessness must then be hammered unceasingly and unrelentingly into the patient's own head (to save his self-respect) and into the heads of the relatives (to save his reputation). Hence, the imperative urge to carry on a veritable crusade of convincing, that is, com- plaining. The proudest achievement which Recovery can claim is the thoroughness with which it has purged its members of their pernicious habits of wailing and lamenting. Trained in the techniques of spotting and commanding their muscles our patients have ceased complaining and are now convincing.

 

[tgirl]

I'm going to use the pronoun "you" in the universal sense for anyone who needs to hear this:

It's definitely not easy, but it is simple. It come down to a few basic principles. The human body is actually not THAT complicated. Once you have visited a slew of doctors and everything catastrophic and life threatening has been ruled out (infections, broken bones, terminal cancer), THEN it is psychological. Point blank. Period. End of Story. Stop looking for reasons as to why it's not, and STOP arguing with people why it could be, because trust and believe, that's not how to get our of chronic pain, which is simply a learned habit. Start being honest with yourself and ask yourself why you don't really want to get better. What would that actually mean if you weren't "sick" or "suffering"??? Who would you be without that pain or those symptoms to distract you and preoccupy you every second? Be honest with YOURSELF. Everyone who has come out the other side, as @plum said, gets it! We have all been there but at a certain point you have to take responsibility for yourself, stop making excuses and cut the victim crap. Self compassion and self pity are 2 different things. Self pity is self indulgent and will keep you stuck.

As far as the principles that apply to EVERYONE, they are as follows: Knowledge of how the brain works (this is logic and science), Emotions (dealing with them), Thoughts (changing chronic thought patterns that actually alter psychology and the perception of pain), Mindset (of indifference to symptoms as they are harmless) and lastly, addressing life stressors and your own life. THAT'S IT. What that looks like exactly, is for YOU to figure out. You are the author of your own story. No one can tell you HOW to live your life.

With regards to personality traits, I just want to address your comments about the profile list, @MariaK for the benefit of others reading here. There is a general type : people pleaser, goodist, responsible, high achiever, overly conscientious, worrier, perfectionistic and overly conscientious. I've never seen rage-aholic or codependent once on any list. If anything TMS'ers tend and repress rage and are highly self motivated. While it's true that personality is incredibly nuanced and individual , all the TMS literature points to a certain profile and that is why anxiety in this population manifests in the body. It's a more sophisticated defense mechanism because the person is really only hurting themselves. People who cope with anxiety in different ways do not present with TMS on this level of chronicity or severity. I do certainly agree with you about the limiting beliefs and stories we tell ourselves, that create these learned habits and memorized suffering. Even if you don't fit the personality profile, it doesn't matter. All it takes is thought habits or fear or preoccupation or repression of emotions to perpetuate TMS. As Dr. Schubiner said, it only requires one of these things to act as a catalyst for the brain's strategy.

Great post Miffybunny. You mentioned personality traits and there is something about the traits of TMS sufferers that perplexes me. As far as being a people pleaser or a goodist, I feel I might be the opposite, and due to my ruminating nature I have come up with a possible reason for this. I’m wondering if you or others reading this have an opinion. It’s occurred to me that I might keep myself out of situations where I have to do excessive ‘nice’ things for others or have to be overly responsible. It’s almost as though I possess the opposite characteristics (some of them, anyway) of the typical TMSer, but the reason might be that I actively avoid these situations. Confrontation is not my strong point. I know this issue isn’t highly important, and one can certainly have TMS possessing one trait only, but I do think about it. I suppose this could be construed as my looking for reasons I don’t fit the model, but really it’s more of an observation. Hopefully this makes sense.

 

[Miller]

This thread is EPIC. It's so helpful ... I feel like I am smashing it at the moment, with this thread as motivation that I can do it!

 

[Balsa11]

Great post Miffybunny. You mentioned personality traits and there is something about the traits of TMS suffers that perplexes me. As far as being a people pleaser or a goodist, I feel I might be the opposite, and due to my ruminating nature I have come up with a possible reason for this. I’m wondering if you or others reading this have an opinion. It’s occurred to me that I might keep myself out of situations where I have to do excessive ‘nice’ things for others or have to be overly responsible. It’s almost as though I possess the opposite characteristics (some of them, anyway) of the typical TMSer, but the reason might be that I actively avoid these situations. Confrontation is not my strong point. I know this issue isn’t highly important, and one can certainly have TMS possessing one trait only, but I do think about it. I suppose this could be construed as my looking for reasons I don’t fit the model, but really it’s more of an observation. Hopefully this makes sense.

Same here haha, it's mostly fear of failure and a habit of avoidance. I get pretty withdrawn and annoyingly self absorbed. Now it's time for my good qualities to take over. My laughing at myself time window will close soon.

 

[Balsa11]

Same here haha, it's mostly fear of failure and a habit of avoidance. I get pretty withdrawn and annoyingly self absorbed. Now it's time for my good qualities to take over. My laughing at myself time window will close soon.

When I read about fawning I couldn't believe people could do that and I thought that's a short term superpower to a limited extent. I thought anything was better than a freeze response, panicking, or breaking down into tears. But I completely forgot how I dodged depressive thoughts once and usually have a stable mood.

 

[plum]

As far as being a people pleaser or a goodist, I feel I might be the opposite, and due to my ruminating nature I have come up with a possible reason for this. I’m wondering if you or others reading this have an opinion.

I tussled with this for a long time in the early days. When I was young I was exceptionally carefree, relaxed and a typical type B personality. None of those TMS traits were on my radar at all. As a young woman I lived a bohemian lifestyle, associated with artists and rebels and generally indulged in creative pursuits. I was irresponsible, freedom-loving and lazy. I was also the child of a codependent mother and dating a man with a narcissistic mother.

These forces inevitably collided, and then went into meltdown when himself became ill. All the TMS traits started appearing in me like a tick list. Born or made? Who knows? I’m not sure it really matters. It’s good to take a personal inventory though, and use this to help you recover.

I definitely had to deal with codependence, which was preceded by a ‘fawn’ response due to abuse. It took me a long time to recognise both and even longer to see how they played into the TMS game. But it’s all there as @miffybunny explains, it’s all part of the same defence mechanism and crucially, all healed by the same means.

I’d be mindful that you don’t let this become a subtle form of self-sabotage because I think I did that and it’s not helpful.

 

[tgirl]

I tussled with this for a long time in the early days. When I was young I was exceptionally carefree, relaxed and a typical type B personality. None of those TMS traits were on my radar at all. As a young woman I lived a bohemian lifestyle, associated with artists and rebels and generally indulged in creative pursuits. I was irresponsible, freedom-loving and lazy. I was also the child of a codependent mother and dating a man with a narcissistic mother.

These forces inevitably collided, and then went into meltdown when himself became ill. All the TMS traits started appearing in me like a tick list. Born or made? Who knows? I’m not sure it really matters. It’s good to take a personal inventory though, and use this to help you recover.

I definitely had to deal with codependence, which was preceded by a ‘fawn’ response due to abuse. It took me a long time to recognise both and even longer to see how they played into the TMS game. But it’s all there as @miffybunny explains, it’s all part of the same defence mechanism and crucially, all healed by the same means.

I’d be mindful that you don’t let this become a subtle form of self-sabotage because I think I did that and it’s not helpful.

I think you are right when you say not to let it become a form of self-sabotage. In the past when I read that TMS people had a such and such personality I immediately thought, well I don’t totally fit into that definition, so maybe this isn’t me. I think I have enough other traits, such as years of strange symptoms that just went away, and so on, that I can let go of the personality trait portion of the TMS definition.

It is interesting when you ask are TMS traits born or made. I agree, who knows and maybe it doesn’t matter, but still interesting.

Thank you for all of your insight Plum.