The Presence Process - Share Experiences & Ask Questions

[BrianC]

When we say God, that's according to me an belief or concept itself. When we say God is real, how do you know, what or who is God, what is real and why? The word God is in itself a learned concept we get from any source around us. We constantly interpreting reality around us based on beliefs that are not our own and we not even sure if they are true or not. What do we actually mean when we say God, how do you define it. We say he, or some say she or both, but we're projecting our own concepts upon something or somebody. Maybe its not an somebody but something beyond what we can grasp at our current state of understanding.

Actually, we know there has to be a God because things exist. Like the saying, "I think, therefore I am." So that's a simple one.

Conceptualizing God is another matter entirely. We do the best we can with that, and that will depend on how we're influenced by our religion while growing up. Nothing we can do about that. god is neither male nor female. Gender has to do with procreation. A God who creates everything doesn't procreate with another God--He/It just creates a child by willing it. The reason God presents Himself as a male to the Hebrews is because of the way He built males to be strong protectors and the authority figure of the family. The man's authority is mainly due to his being built for protection. God's conveying strength and protection for His children (mankind). That's all. But both genders share aspects of His nature. Anyone who believes in male and female gods hasn't thought that through very well. lol

Regarding the idea of God being given to us and not being our own, that's actually not always the case. Researchers found remote tribes throughout the years, untouched by civilization. Some of those tribes had no religion whatsoever. So they asked the children if they believed there was something or someone out there greater than all of us (I forget how they worded the question). The children always answered yes and said it was because they saw that things were created and someone had to have created them. I believe they also commented that they felt or sensed God, as well. One remote village in India was found by Catholic missionaries. So the missionaries stayed. They learned that there was no crime in the village and everyone was extremely loving and kind. The people didn't "sin," as a Christian would say. And yet as the Catholic missionaries taught the people about God, sin began creeping into their society. After several years, their society devolved greatly. Why? Because they were introduced to the religious concept of good and bad, right and wrong, which created shame. And once shame gets in your heart, it drives you to want to sin to get away from the feeling. That's all sin is--an attempt to avoid the way you feel because you don't like or accept it at that moment. Those people had no shame before. The Ancient Hebrews were like that. They didn't have a concept of good and bad, right and wrong. To them, it was all about function and dysfunction, and shame and honor--Eastern concepts. The whole world was Eastern philosophy before 585 B.C. when the sophists introduced Western philosophy. So Christians are trying to understand an Eastern philosophy way of life (or religion, sort of) through Western philosophy concepts. That doesn't work too well. That's why they misunderstand a lot of things in the Bible and come up with false doctrines as a result. But anyway, the kids knew there was a God naturally. And that's exactly what the Bible says, that everyone knows there's a God because they see creation, just as those kids said.

You stated that maybe God isn't a somebody but rather a something. That's actually not possible. The fact that there is intelligence within our creation means an intelligent entity must have created it. One cannot create something greater than himself and his own intellect. If something creates then it has personality. Therefore, it is not a non-personal "thing." It has to be a person.

Thats an interpretation as well or an belief. I do see that people that have had spiritual experiences mention something similar, but then again are those experiences a reflection of their deep seated beliefs. Like people in NDE's meet beings that reflect their religious beliefs. Like Christians see a being of light and its jesus, buddhist see buddha etc.

Nevertheless, i do start to see through the present process through direct experience that whats happening outside me is a reflection of the content of my own mind, that is beliefs, emotions etc. Also when the emotions or beliefs are dealt with something else will be reflected outside me. Who is creating those situations, The Self, Soul, God or what? If other people are send to us to reflect whats inside us, that indeed means we're all like actors directed by a choreographer, whatever or whoever that is. Is that the purpose of life, or are there many other purposes why we are here?

Maybe we just don't know enough about reality or the nature of consciousness that we can't afford to have definitive answers, but instead of answers we should keep questioning.

I don't see a problem with conceptualizing reality as best we can, but questioning things should be a constant. If we don't conceptualize, we won't grasp things at all. Concepts at least help us grasp God and reality to some degree. But yes, questioning is something I constantly do. Testing and questioning. That's why I discovered and proved that some Christian doctrines are incorrect.

Buddhists actually see something very similar to what Christians see in NDEs. Here's a quote from a PhD who researchers NDEs among people of different religions:

______EXCERPT from Religious Interpretations of Death, Afterlife & NDEs_______
Becker (1984) comments "that ancient Japanese Buddhist meditative and deathbed visions closely parallel modern American near-death and deathbed visions" (p. 51). The Tibetan Book of the Dead (1973) describes the Bardo, the three stages of the transitionary "disembodied state" following death. In the first stage, the departed have visions of the "Blinding Clear Light of Pure Reality." In the second stage, the departed encounter a succession of "deities." In the third stage the departed is judged based upon past deeds by the "Dharma Raja, King and Judge of the Dead." These stages are similar in content to other reported near-death experiences from other religions and cultures. These similarities include a movement through levels - such as passing through a tunnel, visions of pure light, meeting incorporeal beings, powers of astral projections or out-of-body-experience, and a judgment about one's life.
______END OF EXCERPT_______

The main difference we see in the tellings of NDEs from different cultures is how they interpret the things they saw. They're seeing the same things, generally speaking, as evidenced above, but they can only describe things in terms they understand. So an American who's Christian can only describe what he or she saw using words and concepts he or she understands. Christians understand God and Jesus and Heaven, etc., while Buddhists would use different terms for those same beings or places.

I think that's the most important message in the Bible, but people are people, we like to organize reality because otherwise our minds don't feel safe. So people keep creating belief systems aka religions. Part of it is also control, Not only from the powers that be, but most people. People feel threatened when somebody else beliefs something totally different and don't feel safe, so we start manipulating other people to make them believe what we do.

I think that's the core problem of humanity, we identify with our beliefs, we think that;s who we are, our identities, a set of beliefs, emotions etc. But i think we are not, we are awareness that have lost our true identity, our soul, self, or godspark or whatever you might call it. Maybe the buddhist were more close to it, but like most people, they again made an religion out of it. I feel God, Self or whatever sends us special people to point us back to the truth, like jesus, buddha etc, but then the mind is getting in the way and starts interpreting it and we end up with religions again. also the powers that be, don't like it that people are really free, because that threatens their power.

Regarding Jesus being equated with Buddha or any other religious figure, that's hard to do. Jesus is the only one of them who claimed to be God Himself and die for the sins of the world. In Ancient Egypt, there was a savior figure and gods, but they're pretty twisted and their form of saving is quite a bit different than Jesus. We can't prove those people lived where as we have exceptional proof that Jesus lived.

Thats why i listen more to people that had authentic spiritual experiences, especially people that were not involved in any religion, new age, or philosophical systems.

Even though they say they aren't involved in a religion, it doesn't mean they aren't a Jesuit priest operative or a satanic ritual abuse victim who's multiple and programmed to mislead people. Totally depends. I keep a very healthy dose of skepticism in mind at all times.

I see what you're saying but also that psychologist has its own set of beliefs and interprets those experiences accordingly.

Yes, but psychologists are trained to remove their beliefs from the equation and just look at the facts. But at the same time, there's a lot of psychologists out there who still define things through the way they see the world. And the field of psychology has a lot of corruption and control in it, unfortunately. I do tend to trust the NDE researching psychologist a bit more than others, though. They seem more authentic and level headed.

Yes i seen several of those near death experiences an what i noticed is that some of the persons were toured around hell with a being they identified as jesus and showed more compassion towards those souls there then the being identified as jesus. I feel indeed its there to instill fear into people and gives a false image of God or whatever is the organizing principle of reality. I always think to myself, if people don't belief that i don't exist, would i put them in hell to be tortured there for eternity. If people don't belief i exist then good on them, makes me laugh, but would that be a reason to torture them forever, definitely no. So how can a being or God that is unconditional love do that? that just makes sense.

Also indeed, the people that had those experiences can be experiencing the reflections of their own inner state, like here on earth when you are deeply troubled inside you experience a deeply troubled outside. Makes more sense that hell is a state of being in the non-physical world, reflected as a thought reflective environment where you spent time till you dealt with it and then naturally you move on to a more loving environment.

Yeah, all of those NDEs where someone like Jesus or Moses takes someone on a tour of Hell are always fake. They have none of the hallmarks of NDEs and they're usually pushing some religious agenda. The 23 Minutes in Hell book is clearly designed to promote a scary Hell.

What clued me in to the fact that Hell wasn't eternal was the fact that if I were born in another country in a different religion, I wouldn't know Jesus. When I realized that, I felt like God was asking me, "From what you know of Me, do you think I'd make anyone suffer forever?" I immediately thought, "No." So I started researching the translation of "eternal" and quickly found that it doesn't mean eternal. Didn't take me long to prove Hell was something very different than religion thinks it is and functions very different than we think it does. Doesn't make sense for anyone to suffer forever for choices he made during his life which were shaped solely by where he was born, how he was raised, etc. Hell isn't to punish anyone. Punish, in Hebrew, actually means pruning. It's a good thing, a corrective thing. Judgment means virtually the same thing. Those are the two words that describe Hell in the Bible. The word "eternal" actually means "the world to come," and indicates the place we go when we die (the spirit realm).

But yes move on and focus on TPP.

Sounds good. You said there was something on page 14 you wanted to discuss?

 

[morreion]

Sounds good. You said there was something on page 14 you wanted to discuss?

We already did, but it got lost in the religious discussion.

Am not going to go further into the discussion of the nature of god, spiritual experiences etc although it's an interesting discussion because otherwise its only to continue and want to stick to the purpose of this forum and that's TPP.

Anyway, have been able to stay partly with my feelings for the last couple of days. Had a lot of hate coming up during a night a couple of days ago. Had to do with betrayal and being ignored by my stepchildren and my own child that's living with me. Could stay with it for a couple of hours, observing the hateful thoughts and associated feelings, but was getting to the point of feeling exhausted and wanting to have some sleep. I did get out of bed and had a cigarette just to calm down so i could have a sleep cause it caused my body to cramp up.

Then in the morning i suddenly was engulfed by feeling of sadness and hopelessness. Could stay with it, i felt it came from my stomach area and just let it be. This seemed to relax my body a bit and the feelings subsided after a couple of hours. Then suddenly in the afternoon i felt fear coming up and not feeling save in public. I could stay with that feeling as well. Then next day again feelings of sadness and hopelessness and feelings of being stuck and not be able to escape.

I notice that if i stay with the feelings and observe it, i can observe also my defense mechanisms. In the first stage i can just be with the feelings, then i notice there is an urge to distract myself with activities. if i just keep observing that and don't give in to do distractive activities, the next thing i notice is that i start to dissociate and have an urge to become absent. If i stay with that and am able to be with that and observe that, the next phase will be becoming agitated and having the urge to move around.

Did that this morning when my daughter was playing up and saying all kinds of hateful things to me. She was saying how much she hated me and that she wanted to live with her mother, who by the way has an alcohol addiction. In the end i made the mistake of lashing out after being able to just not reacting and just listening to whatever painful things she was saying. i felt a lot of hurt coming up and reacted in the end and had a cigarette again. Not ideal but give myself credit that i was able to stay with it for a prolonged period of time. I know she's reacting to her pain and is taking it out on me because she can't live with her mother and see her siblings often. She blames me and the boyfriend of my ex although the situation is more complicated but she's to young to understand.

I realize she's my messenger but still that doesn't make it easier. The real issue is my ability to feel those threatening feelings but am getting slowly better at it.

The reason she's reacted towards me because i don't give in to all of her demands. I used to because of my survival mechanisms. That is to please so i can stay save, keep people happy so they leave you alone and they're not a thread to you. Also have a fear of losing everything, ending up on the street and dye in a horrible way. Part of me is just getting tired of that and getting to the point that i start to care less of survival.

 

[BrianC]

We already did, but it got lost in the religious discussion.

Am not going to go further into the discussion of the nature of god, spiritual experiences etc although it's an interesting discussion because otherwise its only to continue and want to stick to the purpose of this forum and that's TPP.

Anyway, have been able to stay partly with my feelings for the last couple of days. Had a lot of hate coming up during a night a couple of days ago. Had to do with betrayal and being ignored by my stepchildren and my own child that's living with me. Could stay with it for a couple of hours, observing the hateful thoughts and associated feelings, but was getting to the point of feeling exhausted and wanting to have some sleep. I did get out of bed and had a cigarette just to calm down so i could have a sleep cause it caused my body to cramp up.

Then in the morning i suddenly was engulfed by feeling of sadness and hopelessness. Could stay with it, i felt it came from my stomach area and just let it be. This seemed to relax my body a bit and the feelings subsided after a couple of hours. Then suddenly in the afternoon i felt fear coming up and not feeling save in public. I could stay with that feeling as well. Then next day again feelings of sadness and hopelessness and feelings of being stuck and not be able to escape.

I notice that if i stay with the feelings and observe it, i can observe also my defense mechanisms. In the first stage i can just be with the feelings, then i notice there is an urge to distract myself with activities. if i just keep observing that and don't give in to do distractive activities, the next thing i notice is that i start to dissociate and have an urge to become absent. If i stay with that and am able to be with that and observe that, the next phase will be becoming agitated and having the urge to move around.

Did that this morning when my daughter was playing up and saying all kinds of hateful things to me. She was saying how much she hated me and that she wanted to live with her mother, who by the way has an alcohol addiction. In the end i made the mistake of lashing out after being able to just not reacting and just listening to whatever painful things she was saying. i felt a lot of hurt coming up and reacted in the end and had a cigarette again. Not ideal but give myself credit that i was able to stay with it for a prolonged period of time. I know she's reacting to her pain and is taking it out on me because she can't live with her mother and see her siblings often. She blames me and the boyfriend of my ex although the situation is more complicated but she's to young to understand.

I realize she's my messenger but still that doesn't make it easier. The real issue is my ability to feel those threatening feelings but am getting slowly better at it.

The reason she's reacted towards me because i don't give in to all of her demands. I used to because of my survival mechanisms. That is to please so i can stay save, keep people happy so they leave you alone and they're not a thread to you. Also have a fear of losing everything, ending up on the street and dye in a horrible way. Part of me is just getting tired of that and getting to the point that i start to care less of survival.

That's good that you're able to be with the emotions and not give in a lot of the time. That's a very good start to the process. If you keep that up, you'll give in less and less if the feelings integrate. Just keep in mind that the reason the feelings integrate is because the subconscious belief generating the negative emotions changes to the truth, or at least a much better false truth. LOL

The process I use is to express the feelings first through feeling them without reacting to them. They will almost always progress through to sadness. But while they're progressing to sadness, I put myself in the place of the little kid inside of my who's feeling those emotions and I voice what I feel he's saying. That tells me what he's upset about. Often, it takes me teaching my subconscious the truth about whatever he's upset about before he can properly grieve and integrate the feelings.

TPP is counting on the things you say repeatedly in your head to change your subconacious beliefs so they will integrate. That works to a degree, and works quite well for a lot of people. For me, though, I had to talk to those parts of myself who wouldn't integrate and I had to figure out what their false beliefs are and correct those beliefs. It could be something as simple as that part of my subconscious believing it is weak. I dealt with that this morning, actually. It came from when I was bullied for a short time at age 11. My subconscious got the wrong idea about itself. I laid out a solid case and then taught him the truth about himself. He knows the truth now, but he hasn't cried enough yet to integrate the feelings. I'll do more crying tomorrow and eventually that will cause that part of me to integrate.

I hope that gives you some ideas of what you can do if you get stuck. I've worked on healing a single part of my subconscious/Heart for more than a week or two, so I have to be patient sometimes. I stopped putting any deadlines on when each part of me should be healing. It takes a different amount of time for each part of the heart to heal.

 

[morreion]

I hope that gives you some ideas of what you can do if you get stuck.

My problem is that if i keep feeling my feelings and stay present with it long enough, that means days, i get a terrible back pain. This happened twice now. My lower back stiffens up and becomes very painful. I know Michael Brown says you have to stay with the physical pain as well since its an felt resonance but i'm a single dad and have to look after my daughter. I just can't lie down and be with the pain since last time it took days and got progressively worse. I had to go out and get some stuff done but the pain was so bad that i was afraid that something bad would happen to my back. So i had cigarettes and muscle relaxers. That took the pain away a bit but also the emotions. Felt really hopeless because of that. I'm trying to stay present but feel have no choice in those circumstances then to repress.

Anyway, the feelings associated with it are hopelessness, being stuck, desperation and feeling betrayed by my own body and soul. Makes me feel giving up and end it all but know that i can't do it because of my daughter. Also because i have a feeling of increased presence, it's like i'm observing it all and then the feeling of ending it is also observed and as such i won't do it. sounds a bit weird i guess. It's like i feel increased presence and at the same time those feelings, like a conflict or so.

 

[Jocko1]

My problem is that if i keep feeling my feelings and stay present with it long enough, that means days, i get a terrible back pain. This happened twice now. My lower back stiffens up and becomes very painful. I know Michael Brown says you have to stay with the physical pain as well since its an felt resonance but i'm a single dad and have to look after my daughter. I just can't lie down and be with the pain since last time it took days and got progressively worse. I had to go out and get some stuff done but the pain was so bad that i was afraid that something bad would happen to my back. So i had cigarettes and muscle relaxers. That took the pain away a bit but also the emotions. Felt really hopeless because of that. I'm trying to stay present but feel have no choice in those circumstances then to repress.

Anyway, the feelings associated with it are hopelessness, being stuck, desperation and feeling betrayed by my own body and soul. Makes me feel giving up and end it all but know that i can't do it because of my daughter. Also because i have a feeling of increased presence, it's like i'm observing it all and then the feeling of ending it is also observed and as such i won't do it. sounds a bit weird i guess. It's like i feel increased presence and at the same time those feelings, like a conflict or so.

Single Dad here with TMS. I’ve got 2 kids. I know how you feel. My advice is throw away muscle relaxants and cigarettes (and booze if you do that also) it’s all a mask. Start intense exercise. My pain is slowly fading after almost 5 years since starting the above advice 18 months ago. Start slowly with exercise. When you get upset or feel emotions coming on get out a pen and notebook write it all out and rip it up. I’m still working on meditation, but that also seems to help. Tell the pain to go F itself because you have the most precious gift in the world, a daughter.

 

[BrianC]

Single Dad here with TMS. I’ve got 2 kids. I know how you feel. My advice is throw away muscle relaxants and cigarettes (and booze if you do that also) it’s all a mask. Start intense exercise. My pain is slowly fading after almost 5 years since starting the above advice 18 months ago. Start slowly with exercise. When you get upset or feel emotions coming on get out a pen and notebook write it all out and rip it up. I’m still working on meditation, but that also seems to help. Tell the pain to go F itself because you have the most precious gift in the world, a daughter.

Hi, Jacko. Welcome to the conversation and thanks for the input!

The only thing I'd discourage is telling the pain to go f*** itself.

In the Presence Processes, there's a very different approach to dealing with pain than other methods. We don't run from the pain. We embrace it and be with it.

Resisting the pain and being scared of it makes it much, much worse. When you stop resisting it and start seeing it as a sign that part of your subconscious (heart) has some type of issue that needs to be addressed, you can resolve it eventually and it will stop producing the pain or health problem it was causing.

According to psychologists, the subconscious splits as we grow up, so we end up having several pieces of it that have learned false truths about the world or their self or God which cause them to get stuck at whatever age they're at, unable mature or be happy. So it's like a little kid. A lack of unconditional love is the other issue that causes the heart to split like that. Both are needed to get each part to heal and reintegrate back into the rest of the heart/subconscious.

In TPP, we're basically meditating to block out the mind, since it's the biggest coping mechanism, which allows those painful emotions to surface. Then we love them unconditional as if they're our kid (us as a little kid), more or less. There are things you repeat in your head throughout the week to reprogram the lies in the subconscious.

Eventually, the truth and the unconditionally love cause the heart to umharden and heal, which heals the body. So before its healed, those split pieces are causing emotional pain and health problems. After they're healed, that stuff all goes away.

We gain a lot of strength through the process and end up enjoying the pain eventually. I know that sounds weird, but it's true. lol Loving on the pain and knowing it's making progress makes it feel good.

 

[BrianC]

My problem is that if i keep feeling my feelings and stay present with it long enough, that means days, i get a terrible back pain. This happened twice now. My lower back stiffens up and becomes very painful. I know Michael Brown says you have to stay with the physical pain as well since its an felt resonance but i'm a single dad and have to look after my daughter. I just can't lie down and be with the pain since last time it took days and got progressively worse. I had to go out and get some stuff done but the pain was so bad that i was afraid that something bad would happen to my back. So i had cigarettes and muscle relaxers. That took the pain away a bit but also the emotions. Felt really hopeless because of that. I'm trying to stay present but feel have no choice in those circumstances then to repress.

Anyway, the feelings associated with it are hopelessness, being stuck, desperation and feeling betrayed by my own body and soul. Makes me feel giving up and end it all but know that i can't do it because of my daughter. Also because i have a feeling of increased presence, it's like i'm observing it all and then the feeling of ending it is also observed and as such i won't do it. sounds a bit weird i guess. It's like i feel increased presence and at the same time those feelings, like a conflict or so.

I'm guessing you know the feelings are just feelings, not reality, so that's good. I tried to kill myself a long time ago in my early 20s. As soon as I failed, I said, "Okay, God, You made Your point. You're not going to let me die. I'll never try that again and I'll face my problems and figure out what's causing all of this."

From that point on, I never tried it again. That boundary I set was all I needed, as well as redirecting my energy to finding a solution. Finally found it in two things: TPP and the method I created later.

But it really important to understand they the feelings are just feelings--they won't kill you. They're just wanting to be loved unconditionally and they want the truth. If you make it through TPP once or twice and don't see some marked improvement, you may have to take a more direct approach like my method uses.

Mind if I ask what your dad was like and what your experience was with him growing up? How did he handle discipline?

My guess is that your hopelessness has something to do with your dynamic with him and your mother. Some lie you accidentally picked up early on that tells you you're worthless and deserve to be punished. It may not have been told to you, but your parents' actions may have given you an idea like that about yourself. Or maybe you felt like a burden to your parents as a child. So killing yourself could be your solution to not being a burden to others. Or maybe you just fear the pain never going away. You'd know better than I would, of course. I'm just throwing possibilities out there to see if any of them resonate with you.

 

[morreion]

From that point on, I never tried it again.

I realize that the thoughts and feelings of wanting to die and ending my life are part of the trauma and are emotional signatures and i won't actually physically will kill myself. It is part of the cluster of painful emotions, like desperation, hopelessness, feeling stuck etc.

I don't do the breathing part of TPP , i tried though but the result was tremendous tension in my body due to the defense mechanism kicking in. I use mindfulness to learn to stay present and let the circumstances and people in my life bring up the emotions. That works for me and as such i feel more and more emotions. For me that is a slower way of dealing with it and its less threatening to my wounded parts of my psyche. I guess getting used to the pain more slowly works sometimes better then doing it fast, like doing it with the breathing exercises.

Like you tweak the exercises and developed your own one. Guess you have to trust your own intuition with that.

Mind if I ask what your dad was like and what your experience was with him growing up? How did he handle discipline?

My guess is that your hopelessness has something to do with your dynamic with him and your mother.

When i think about my dad and mum i don't feel any feelings of hopelessness. To the contrary, i always felt really safe with them. My dad was emotionally walled in due to his experiences in the concentration camp, war and failed marriages, but he was always a good listener. I had my anger because i had to go to a church when i was young and he was over protective but was able to express my anger towards him about that and he really took it well i must say.

I really wasn't disciplined that much, they were more talking to me when they thought we did something wrong. I always had a good sense of right and wrong and also a good intuition. Also school wasn't a problem for me, i liked school and learning, was actually quite bored cause i found everything very easy. Maybe it's because i have a high IQ, was tested and it showed i had an IQ of 138. But that only helped me partly with dealing with my emotions i guess. It only helped me devouring knowledge and books and finding ways to help myself. At the same time it also helped my survival and coping mechanisms. So the two have maybe cancelled each other out.

So yes it's a mystery where my trauma comes from. I only can say that i had night visitors (spirits or non physical beings) and was being told by them that it was problems from other lives effecting my life now. But yes, then we end up in a debate again in the reality of past lives and the nature of reality.

Only what i can say for sure is that i have traumatic feelings arising now, whatever the cause of it is. Feel that everything in my life now was mend to bring up all the pain, like the messengers idea in TPP.

Tell the pain to go F itself because you have the most precious gift in the world, a daughter.

I understand what you are saying and the frustration, but that is denying reality. The pain is there and telling to f.. off is giving my subconsciousness or wounded parts a message that they're not welcome and will only strengthen the defense mechanism and the pain won't go away when i tell my back not to hurt anymore . I feel acceptance is the way to go and it's better to find compromises when i'm dealing with for instance the incapacitating back pain. I try to talk to my own consciousness and ask if it can show the pain in such a manner that i can deal with it in the circumstances i'm in with my daughter. Also when i'm self medicating when in severe pain, i try to keep it to a bare minimum and have a conversation with my wounded self that i'm doing it because i have to take care of my daughter and will keep feeling as much as i possible can and be there for it. so i try to find compromises.

 

[BrianC]

I realize that the thoughts and feelings of wanting to die and ending my life are part of the trauma and are emotional signatures and i won't actually physically will kill myself. It is part of the cluster of painful emotions, like desperation, hopelessness, feeling stuck etc.

I don't do the breathing part of TPP , i tried though but the result was tremendous tension in my body due to the defense mechanism kicking in. I use mindfulness to learn to stay present and let the circumstances and people in my life bring up the emotions. That works for me and as such i feel more and more emotions. For me that is a slower way of dealing with it and its less threatening to my wounded parts of my psyche. I guess getting used to the pain more slowly works sometimes better then doing it fast, like doing it with the breathing exercises.

Like you tweak the exercises and developed your own one. Guess you have to trust your own intuition with that.



When i think about my dad and mum i don't feel any feelings of hopelessness. To the contrary, i always felt really safe with them. My dad was emotionally walled in due to his experiences in the concentration camp, war and failed marriages, but he was always a good listener. I had my anger because i had to go to a church when i was young and he was over protective but was able to express my anger towards him about that and he really took it well i must say.

I really wasn't disciplined that much, they were more talking to me when they thought we did something wrong. I always had a good sense of right and wrong and also a good intuition. Also school wasn't a problem for me, i liked school and learning, was actually quite bored cause i found everything very easy. Maybe it's because i have a high IQ, was tested and it showed i had an IQ of 138. But that only helped me partly with dealing with my emotions i guess. It only helped me devouring knowledge and books and finding ways to help myself. At the same time it also helped my survival and coping mechanisms. So the two have maybe cancelled each other out.

So yes it's a mystery where my trauma comes from. I only can say that i had night visitors (spirits or non physical beings) and was being told by them that it was problems from other lives effecting my life now. But yes, then we end up in a debate again in the reality of past lives and the nature of reality.

Only what i can say for sure is that i have traumatic feelings arising now, whatever the cause of it is. Feel that everything in my life now was mend to bring up all the pain, like the messengers idea in TPP.


I understand what you are saying and the frustration, but that is denying reality. The pain is there and telling to f.. off is giving my subconsciousness or wounded parts a message that they're not welcome and will only strengthen the defense mechanism and the pain won't go away when i tell my back not to hurt anymore . I feel acceptance is the way to go and it's better to find compromises when i'm dealing with for instance the incapacitating back pain. I try to talk to my own consciousness and ask if it can show the pain in such a manner that i can deal with it in the circumstances i'm in with my daughter. Also when i'm self medicating when in severe pain, i try to keep it to a bare minimum and have a conversation with my wounded self that i'm doing it because i have to take care of my daughter and will keep feeling as much as i possible can and be there for it. so i try to find compromises.

The fact that spirits were telling you your issues come from past lives is very concerning. If it were me, I wouldn't believe a thing they said. As far as past lives, I thought I already mentioned that I think it's very likely we can choose to live more than one life here if we want to. Heck, we may have lived several already. I just don't believe in the idea of us being forced to reincarnate in order to resolve the sins of our past lives. In my opinion, that's a control mechanism like an eternal Hell of torment.

I'm not really sure what to tell you on that front, but I'm sure you'll come to better conclusions that what I would speculate. You know your situation infinitely more than I do.

I wish tests of intellect were better, but sadly, they're very lacking. Then again, it'd be very difficult to get a true measure of people's intellect because it's hard to test them in their element. Everyone is smart in certain areas and not so gifted in other areas. Tests have a very difficult time testing people in their element. Your 138 IQ puts you in the top 1% of the world. I score in the top 1%, too, usually a 136, but for some reason, I scored 142 once. Not sure how that happened that time. Must've been having a really good day or got lucky. lol Regardless, though, that's not a good gauge of intellect. Just means we excel at those particular tests. I think the heart being in balance with the intellect is what really matters. Emotional intelligence is very important.

Not doing the breathing may not just slow your progress down--it may cause you to hit a wall at some point, unable to make more progress. But hey, you gotta do what you gotta. If there is any way to do the breathing, though, I highly recommend it. The mind is the biggest coping mechanism. Shutting it down for a short time is extremely effective in bringing up repressed emotions. I hope you're eventually able to do it. I think you'd see a lot of progress. But you're probably smart to take it very slow like you're doing. Hard to say, really. Maybe it'll prepare you for the breathing later.

 

[Jocko1]

I just started my 5th day of the 1st week. I’m doing the breathing techniques as described but my mind keeps wondering as I’m doing it. Is this normal? It’s frustrating doing a practice to stay present and my mind goes where it wants.

 

[BrianC]

I just started my 5th day of the 1st week. I’m doing the breathing techniques as described but my mind keeps wondering as I’m doing it. Is this normal? It’s frustrating doing a practice to stay present and my mind goes where it wants.

Sorry for the relay in responding. Good to have you in the thread Jocko.

Yes, that's totally normal for you mind to wonder. In fact, there are people who have been meditating like this for decades and teach it to others and even their mind still wonders every once in a while. It's far, far more frequent when you're new to this. But as you get more and more issues resolved, it becomes less frequent. If you could do it without losing your focus, I'd think there's something wrong with you. LOL

 

[Jocko1]

Thanks Brian for your reply. I’d like to know how can you get issues resolved if you can’t stayed focussed? Isn’t presence a prerequisite to that? I’m having a hard time understanding how this works.

 

[BrianC]

Thanks Brian for your reply. I’d like to know how can you get issues resolved if you can’t stayed focussed? Isn’t presence a prerequisite to that? I’m having a hard time understanding how this works.

Don't forget that the whole reason the mind can't stay focused is because of the psychological issues within the heart (subconscious) and their conditioning of avoidance. If you started this process and could keep your mind completely still, it would probably mean you have little to no emotional issues. If that were the case, you wouldn't really need to be doing TPP, right? lol

It's true that it can take longer at first, due to the mind being untrained at stillness and the psychological issues driving it to want to avoid, but that's not only perfectly normal, it's expected. This process is partly about developing patience.

Also, you have to look at it this way: no one is perfect at something right away. It takes time and practice. If you've been constantly keeping your mind busy all your life, you're not magically going to be able to focus on keeping your mind blank without any practice. As with everything in life, it takes a lot of practice to get good at it. And in this case, some resolving of emotional issues, as well.

As you get better at silencing your mind and just saying the phrase in your head, you'll notice that, eventually, your dysfunctioning feelings will surface. As they surface, resolve, and integrate, you'll find that it's easier to focus.

So the focus comes both from practice and resolving emotional issues in the subconscious. Everyone, across the board, has trouble focusing at first. But all you need is the effort and intention of calming your mind daily, and your heart will eventually be unable to hold back its feelings. They'll surface.

Just the sheer act of sitting and doing nothing, accomplishing what seems to be nothing, can trigger emotions to surface for processing. I've purposely sat around at home before with the intent of triggering one of those parts of my subconscious to surface so I could help him (it) integrate. It worked. That afternoon, he'd had enough sitting around doing nothing. He derived his self-worth from accomplishment and staying busy--the illusion of making progress and having worth. Once that part of me surfaced, I talked him through the lie that he'd believed growing up that was driving him to constantly stay busy. He believed it was a lie and learned the truth--that what you do in life has nothing to do with your self-worth. Immediately, I felt him (it) integrate. The feeling went from an uncomfortable feeling to a great feeling in no time. Took maybe 10 minutes to talk him through it (that was before I'd heard of The Presence Process TPP).

I say "him" because I look at each part of my subconscious as if it's a kid. Basically, each one is a piece of me from childhood that separated from the rest of my heart and got stuck at they age due to a lie it believed about himself or the world. The lie produces uncomfortable emotions that keep it in place and cause it not to be able to grow and flourish. So it stays young and hurt. Had it known the truth and also been shown unconditional love by my parents and me, it wouldn't have gotten stuck in the first place. Once the lie is corrected and I show him unconditional love, he integrates.

In TPP, the way you address the lies is by saying the weekly sentences. Wow, it's been so long since I read the book, I'm forgetting what those are called! LOL Man, I need a refresher. Anyway, so those are what correct the lies. As the lies are corrected, the emotions come to the surface eventually to be processed (expressed) and integrated. When that method doesn't work, I do what I mentioned in my story above--I share the truth directly with the part of me that's having the emotional issues that won't seem to resolve. TPP worked great for me at first. I'm so thankful I did it five times. But it could only get me so far because my subconscious demands that I prove things to it. LOL So that's why I have to speak directly to the parts of my subconscious and convince them of the truth. I don't recommend bother with that method until you've done at least two 10-week PPs (Presence Processes).

I know I got slightly off on a tangent, but do you understand now why the issues start to surface even though you're unfocused right now?

 

[Jocko1]

Brian,
Thanks for your reply. I do see it now. I’ll continue working at it.
Thank you!

 

[BrianC]

No problem! Good luck!

 

[Martinam]

Hello, lovely people! I am Martina! I am finding this forum as really useful sharing of PP experiences! Long story short: I have few spine diagnoses as a consequence of cancer radiation treatment which I had as a teenager. That's why I have pain on daily basis, but also I do believe that partially is connected with emotional baggage that most of us are carrying. I got into more consciousness living in order to live better life and to let go the past. Michael Brown is explaining that perfectly! My life was process and it still is. In 2018. I end up"accendently " living in Spain with family which introduced me to the Process and I did my first Process there with their daily support. It was life changing for me, but I must add that I did a lot of spiritual work before. Now, in Serbia I am doing the Process for the second time. I tried to find someone to do it together, but it was hard, therefore, I am doing it publicly on YouTube. So support may come in different ways! If you want to see how that looks like, ask questions... you are welcome! This week I will post my first week but here is my previous experience of the book and introduction
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5GumHepIVAmfir8Ou4pZXOpwxcXOhSFu (Guidelines trough Presence Process- powerful life-changing method - YouTube)

 

[BrianC]

Hello, lovely people! I am Martina! I am finding this forum as really useful sharing of PP experiences! Long story short: I have few spine diagnoses as a consequence of cancer radiation treatment which I had as a teenager. That's why I have pain on daily basis, but also I do believe that partially is connected with emotional baggage that most of us are carrying. I got into more consciousness living in order to live better life and to let go the past. Michael Brown is explaining that perfectly! My life was process and it still is. In 2018. I end up"accendently " living in Spain with family which introduced me to the Process and I did my first Process there with their daily support. It was life changing for me, but I must add that I did a lot of spiritual work before. Now, in Serbia I am doing the Process for the second time. I tried to find someone to do it together, but it was hard, therefore, I am doing it publicly on YouTube. So support may come in different ways! If you want to see how that looks like, ask questions... you are welcome! This week I will post my first week but here is my previous experience of the book and introduction
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5GumHepIVAmfir8Ou4pZXOpwxcXOhSFu (Guidelines trough Presence Process- powerful life-changing method - YouTube)

Thanks for the post! I'm sure your experience will help people here going through the process!

 

[Martinam]

Thank you for welcoming me!
I start following your previous conversations of many years ago, and I must say, you talk about your experiences in TPP in great detail and very open and accurate way. You are doing that better than Micheal Brown in his Q&A. I have maybe silly question, but were so open about your fears and diseases before Process?
After doing it for the first time at the end of year 2018, I never stopped analysing and noticing Messengers.
Did you do Process all three times ?
I am actually now at 4th week of my second time, although I just published on YouTube the first week. After the first week my physical experience got really turbulent with people and health.
My first journey was also very extreme in some ways. I had an inspirational action to return to my country, where all began, to my parents house. So I am here now, doing the second round and being surround with past. It's very easy to connect dots of my childhood with my adulthood, but is still difficult to not answer, its very emotionally painful. Did anyone because of Process had a desire to go back?
Please forgive me on my English, I am not a native speaker.

 

[BrianC]

Thank you for welcoming me!
I start following your previous conversations of many years ago, and I must say, you talk about your experiences in TPP in great detail and very open and accurate way. You are doing that better than Micheal Brown in his Q&A. I have maybe silly question, but were so open about your fears and diseases before Process?
After doing it for the first time at the end of year 2018, I never stopped analysing and noticing Messengers.
Did you do Process all three times ?
I am actually now at 4th week of my second time, although I just published on YouTube the first week. After the first week my physical experience got really turbulent with people and health.
My first journey was also very extreme in some ways. I had an inspirational action to return to my country, where all began, to my parents house. So I am here now, doing the second round and being surround with past. It's very easy to connect dots of my childhood with my adulthood, but is still difficult to not answer, its very emotionally painful. Did anyone because of Process had a desire to go back?
Please forgive me on my English, I am not a native speaker.

Yes, I was pretty open about my fears and experiences before doing The PresenceProcess (TPP).

I did TPP 5 times in a row.

I don't understand your last question. You asked if anyone had a desire to go back because of TPP. I don't know what you mean by that.

Thats great that you're on your second Presence Process (PP). It's well worth it to do it at least twice. Can't wait to hear about your experiences. If it's turbulent, that means it working well.

 

[Martinam]

Before TPP I was very much into how past create the way how we behave in certain situations as an adults. How our parents create our personalities subconsciously. I was always running away from my parents, I realized that just few years ago. My childhood was a horrible place to remember, but after few weeks of TPP I had unstoppable need to go back. BACK for me is to my country, to my house, to my parents. So the question was about that if someone because of Pp really go back into the past? Like physically, intentionally confronting what was so hurtful for us.