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Really Struggling with Knee Pain

Thank you for journaling. It is amazing how active you have been amidst the symptoms. You are a warrior! I am having TMS knee pain. Xrays show arthritis (71 years) but not to the point of replacement. I am virtually pain free unless I put it under significant load and then it feels like I am spraining it. I am going to try to strengthen which totally makes sense to me but it has been a path you have tried but seemingly with little luck. Any advice?
 
Thank you for the kind words!

Are you practicing TMS techniques or are you new at all of this? That will change my response.

For now I would say not to be too concerned about the arthritis, that's normal aging according to Sarno. Especially if you're feeling pain in one knee but not the other (arthritis is almost certainly identical in both knees). As for strength training, I believe it is beneficial for its own purpose, but not as a cure for knee pain (which aligns with Sarno's book when performing any kind of physical therapy - do it and enjoy it, but not as a cure).

I still get knee pain in certain movements kind of like you describe, I tell myself these are "conditioned responses" - and I believe it too because the pain will come and go, which would not make sense if there was a structural issue.
 
Yes, I am practicing TMS techniques. A little stiffness and soreness I attribute to arthritis. For instance I walked a couple of miles on uneven ground today carrying 20 pounds. My knee was stiff for a while after. Serious pain I attribute to TMS. I think stretching and strengthening will help with stiffness and soreness. What podcasts or blogs have you found helpful?
 
Oh I like podcasts - try Eddy Lindenstein's "Mind and Body Fitness" and also Nicole Sach's "Cure for Chronic Pain". I find these nice to listen to while riding my bike or in your case taking hikes.

Here's my go to toolbox when I get TMS issues:

- Revisit my books (Sarno's mostly but I like the Ozanich book too)
- Listen to podcasts (see above)
- Read this forum (especially the success stories)
- Keep a light heart about it all (TMS issues are exacerbated by catastrophic thinking)
- Do some journaling and/or freeform writing
 
Have had kind of a rough 1.5-2 months with some things happened that have created a lot of stress and anxiety. As a result I've had issues with sleep and some of my old bugaboos cropping back up, like knee pain.

One of the things that was always odd with my knee pain is that it would often hurt most laying in bed, or upon waking. Very odd timing, right? I used to rationalize that it would "stiffen up" overnight and that's why it hurt more then than say, while I was actually running or cycling.

Well one of those most stubborn symptoms with this knee pain in particular that has stuck around (or would crop up first after an absence of symptoms) was this pain after a period sleeping. Seems to be hard resolve.

Well I made an observation recently - something odd that I think I will add to my "evidence sheet" for this particular knee problem. Ya see, recently I had taken a little melatonin (just 1mg) before bed feeling like I needed a particular good night of rest (because I have been enduring some hard running training recently and sleep is the best recovery). Anyway, I noticed after this melatonin dosage that my knee pain was pretty much non-existant upon waking! Odd right?

Well as I thought about it, actually it makes a ton of sense. Melatonin works pretty well for me in settling down my anxiety (and therefore allowing me to sleep). When I'm taking it - whether it's placebo or not - I tend to calm-the-heck-down at night as opposed to my normal rumination/worry that I'm prone to do. Well if the melatonin causes that side effect - and the knee pain is a result of my tms (i.e. tension, worry, anxiety, etc) - then it actually makes sense that I wouldn't see that particular side effect.

Now, I'm not going the path of thinking I need even these small doses of melatonin each night just to cure my knee pain - but it does give me just a bit more ammunition that the knee pain is purely TMS.
 
Dear Mr. Hip. I have read all your story. Can I ask you what symptoms you have?
Both knees hurt and my kneecaps feel unstable when I feel pain. Then when I walk it gets better. I have a burning sensation on the inside of my knee. I have the feeling that it is TMS because I have already suffered from it and I overcame it when the mother of a dear friend was very ill. I had to abandon my obsessive fear of my knee s
 
I think knee pain is like back pain when it comes to TMS. Doctors do countless, needless and useless back surgeries today. They have everyone terrified of needing knee replacement or back surgery. Sarno said arthritis is benign. It’s nothing to worry about. Think of it as nothing. Who cares? Ignore it. Knees are surrounded by tendons, nerves and muscles. Every single one of those can be influenced by TMS. It’s a TMS playground. As long as you don’t have a true knee injury that needs attention, the best way around all knee concerns is to ignore them and don’t give your TMS brain any more power. (Have you ever noticed when people get one back surgery, they need another? They get one knee surgery and they need it on the other knee? Because it’s TMS. )
 
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From Chapter 5, The MindBody Prescription, by John Sarno:

“Knee Tendonitis

While virtually any tendon in the body may be the target for TMS, some are more frequently involved than others. The knee is one of the most common sites. The pain may be anywhere in the front or back of the knee; a great many tendons attach around that joint. The largest is the patellar tendon, containing within it the patella (kneecap); it is the tendon of the quadriceps muscle, the weight-bearing muscle that keeps the knee from buckling during walking or running. The pain is usually in only part of the tendon, either above or below the kneecap. There are many others, including the hamstring tendons and those from muscles below the knee. The ligaments around the joint are important structures that help support it and may be a target for pain. All of this is easily ascertained on physical examination; the involved tendon hurts when you press on it. The problem does not involve the knee joint but the tendons attached to bones around the joint. Knee pain is often blamed on a condition known as chon-dromalacia. It is a roughening on the underside of the kneecap, diagnosed by X ray and, in my experience, painless. Once more we have a situation in which an X-ray abnormality is blamed for pain because the doctor is unaware of the existence of TMS. Pain may also be attributed to an unstable patella, or that old standby, arthritis. Occasionally a small tear in a meniscus (cartilage) is said to be the cause of the pain. Meniscus tears can be seen on imaging studies and are very often painless but will be blamed for pain really caused by TMS tendonitis. Not uncommonly these patients have arthroscopic surgery. I saw such a patient recently. After the arthroscopic procedure he continued to have pain, so the surgeon did a second one on the grounds that a fold of tissue was causing the pain. But the pain continued. Though this patient came to see me for his back, I informed him of the true nature of his knee pain and he was able to solve both problems simultaneously. Although it is less common, swelling of the knee may accompany tendonitis. When I first became aware of this I felt a little insecure about advising the patient that it was part of TMS. In the light of consistent success in treatment, I am now quite comfortable with that diagnosis.”

And this, from Chapter 3:

“When sensory fibers are oxygen-deprived, a variety of symptoms may ensue, including pain of all kinds, burning or pressure sensations, numbness or tingling.”
 
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Diana-M said:
From Chapter 5, The MindBody Prescription, by John Sarno:

“Knee Tendonitis

While virtually any tendon in the body may be the target for TMS, some are more frequently involved than others. The knee is one of the most common sites. The pain may be anywhere in the front or back of the knee; a great many tendons attach around that joint. The largest is the patellar tendon, containing within it the patella (kneecap); it is the tendon of the quadriceps muscle, the weight-bearing muscle that keeps the knee from buckling during walking or running. The pain is usually in only part of the tendon, either above or below the kneecap. There are many others, including the hamstring tendons and those from muscles below the knee. The ligaments around the joint are important structures that help support it and may be a target for pain. All of this is easily ascertained on physical examination; the involved tendon hurts when you press on it. The problem does not involve the knee joint but the tendons attached to bones around the joint. Knee pain is often blamed on a condition known as chon-dromalacia. It is a roughening on the underside of the kneecap, diagnosed by X ray and, in my experience, painless. Once more we have a situation in which an X-ray abnormality is blamed for pain because the doctor is unaware of the existence of TMS. Pain may also be attributed to an unstable patella, or that old standby, arthritis. Occasionally a small tear in a meniscus (cartilage) is said to be the cause of the pain. Meniscus tears can be seen on imaging studies and are very often painless but will be blamed for pain really caused by TMS tendonitis. Not uncommonly these patients have arthroscopic surgery. I saw such a patient recently. After the arthroscopic procedure he continued to have pain, so the surgeon did a second one on the grounds that a fold of tissue was causing the pain. But the pain continued. Though this patient came to see me for his back, I informed him of the true nature of his knee pain and he was able to solve both problems simultaneously. Although it is less common, swelling of the knee may accompany tendonitis. When I first became aware of this I felt a little insecure about advising the patient that it was part of TMS. In the light of consistent success in treatment, I am now quite comfortable with that diagnosis.”
Click to expand...

Thank you very much. You are really kind.
I'm reading the book you mentioned, but I don't feel pain in the tendon and I feel a strange instability of the kneecap with a fairly fixed pain (it doesn't move much as it should perhaps be for TMS). I don't know what to think. Then isn't it strange that it also hurts at night when my brain is "off"?
I ask questions because believing it would be important. I have a significant history of psychosomatic illnesses.
 
Giofe86 said:
Thank you very much. You are really kind.
I'm reading the book you mentioned, but I don't feel pain in the tendon and I feel a strange instability of the kneecap with a fairly fixed pain (it doesn't move much as it should perhaps be for TMS). I don't know what to think. Then isn't it strange that it also hurts at night when my brain is "off"?
I ask questions because believing it would be important. I have a significant history of psychosomatic illnesses.
Click to expand...
I have a huge ton of symptoms these days, and they often act up at night. I think your subconscious can really go at it when you’re asleep. If it were structural, wouldn’t it hurt only when you’re moving around? I have knee pain (that moves all around), stiffness, burning, instability, my knees lock. You name it. I know it’s TMS. Sometimes it even goes away altogether. The only logical thing that makes sense is TMS.
 
Diana-M said:
Ho un sacco di sintomi in questo periodo, e spesso si manifestano di notte. Credo che il subconscio possa davvero scatenarli mentre dormi. Se fosse strutturale, non farebbe male solo quando ti muovi? Ho dolore al ginocchio (che si muove in tutto il corpo), rigidità, bruciore, instabilità, le ginocchia si bloccano. Di tutto. So che è la stimolazione magnetica transcranica (TMS). A volte scompare persino del tutto. L'unica cosa logica che abbia senso è la stimolazione magnetica transcranica.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your answer. Why are you sure?
 
No injuries. A functional overload. I did 10 squats and both knees got inflamed. I must also say that, already while I was doing the exercise (recommended by the physiotherapist) I was anxious and feared the pain
 
This all sounds like TMS to me. I would keep reading The MindBody Prescription. Spend time on the forum. Read success stories. That should help get you some clarity.
 
Diana-M said:
This all sounds like TMS to me. I would keep reading The MindBody Prescription. Spend time on the forum. Read success stories. That should help get you some clarity.
Click to expand...
I feel the same way. I don't know if I should be happy about it or not. I had the same problem in 2019 and it went away when a friend's mother got seriously ill to the point of dying. I lived with him and other friends all those moments. Maybe the mix of friends and drama helped me mentally.
 
Yes, it is the same for me, but I always have a burning sensation.
Do you experience kneecap instability or crackling?
 
Not sure what you mean by instability - for some people that is "giving out" (ie. buckling), for others it is just pain when in a loaded position.

I would give no credence to "crackling" whatsoever." Our bodies especially our joints make all kinds of odd noises all the time. Usually when it's joints it is just gas bubbles moving around.
 
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I have pain even when I sleep, but my knees make me uncomfortable. I go up the stairs with crutches. When the pain improves, I am happier.
 
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