Really Struggling with Knee Pain

[Mr Hip Guy]

Hi - I'm not sure what you mean, and also the text of mine you quoted is in a different language?

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

Really no other place to put it but here, it's not really related to my issue(s) but just an observation.

I was just reading running blog that I've been following for 10+ years. The author of the blog is older (now 70+) who didn't start running until he was in his late 50's but he hadn't posted anything on his blog in 6mo until just now. Turns out he had some bouts of back pain and MRI revealed pinched nerves etc. He has been in a wheel chair for a few months and has announced he is giving up running. Compounding the problem is that he might consider running again but his wife has "Multiple System Atrophy" and is unable to mobilize, he laudably doesn't want to leave her alone in order to run/train.

It's all sad and there is nothing I can do to help, so I'm just making a comment here.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Compounding the problem is that he might consider running again but his wife has "Multiple System Atrophy" and is unable to mobilize, he laudably doesn't want to leave her alone in order to run/train.

Even sadder is the distinct possibility that, rather than "compounding the problem", his wife's condition might in fact be the CAUSE of classic Sarno-style repressed rage, thus the reason he is rather suddenly (within six months?) suffering from TMS symptoms.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

Even sadder is the distinct possibility that, rather than "compounding the problem", his wife's condition might in fact be the CAUSE of classic Sarno-style repressed rage, thus the reason he is rather suddenly (within six months?) suffering from TMS symptoms.

Yes exactly. I forgot to mention the MRI said stress fracture of the fibula/tibia in addition to the pinched nerve. Both of which have come on after a decade of getting used to running? So suspicious.

The wife was a runner as well and is now bed ridden in her 70s.

 

[Thomas M. Shields]

Interesting thread.

I too suffer from runner's knee - a source of much frustration since running alleviates my anxiety like nothing else - but I cannot decide if it's structural or not. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

In favour of it being TMS

- I have always been active (now 40 years old) but my knee pain emerged alongside anxiety and chronic fatigue (the latter of which went away, thank goodness).
- There is no pain at all when I'm not on my feet and no discernable tenderness around the joint.
- It is a perfectly symmetrical ailment.
- I'm fine with lunges and squats, although slight bends of knee in my day to day life can bring much pain.

In favour of it being structural (I think)

- The pain is consistent in its patterns of emergence and persistence. It gets steadily worse with each run until it becomes difficult for me to walk. After a long rest, I can usually manage 2 or 3 runs pain free and then the 4th run starts with a feeling of discomfort.
- The pain subsides gradually with rest until I can walk around pain free.

I lean towards thinking it's structural. The fact that it improves with rest and worsens with exercise in a predictable linear fashion suggests structural to me.

 

[dlane2530]

After a long rest, I can usually manage 2 or 3 runs pain free and then the 4th run starts with a feeling of discomfort.

I am not a doctor but this seems fishy to me. Structurally, if it can handle 3 runs it can handle 4, as long as you are not doing something like pushing too hard or not taking rest days while you recover. It sounds to me like your mind has put up the 4th run as a barrier.

If it was structural and is still recovering in some way, you could take it a little easier...you don't have to push it too the limit...but I think it working sometimes and not others in the same activity is fishy, especially if there's a pattern where you're making progress and then you *start* the activity with pain.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

Interesting thread.

I too suffer from runner's knee - a source of much frustration since running alleviates my anxiety like nothing else - but I cannot decide if it's structural or not. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

In favour of it being TMS

- I have always been active (now 40 years old) but my knee pain emerged alongside anxiety and chronic fatigue (the latter of which went away, thank goodness).
- There is no pain at all when I'm not on my feet and no discernable tenderness around the joint.
- It is a perfectly symmetrical ailment.
- I'm fine with lunges and squats, although slight bends of knee in my day to day life can bring much pain.

In favour of it being structural (I think)

- The pain is consistent in its patterns of emergence and persistence. It gets steadily worse with each run until it becomes difficult for me to walk. After a long rest, I can usually manage 2 or 3 runs pain free and then the 4th run starts with a feeling of discomfort.
- The pain subsides gradually with rest until I can walk around pain free.

I lean towards thinking it's structural. The fact that it improves with rest and worsens with exercise in a predictable linear fashion suggests structural to me.

Sorry to hear you're having knee issues. I realize I haven't updated this thread with my symptoms but my knee is about as good as it's ever been. I actually rarely feel pain anymore, and I even marvel still when I descend stairs or do any other activity that used to elicit pain, but it doesn't!

I like that you're doing Evidence Sheets, I'd suggest leaning into that and add as many other line items (to each side) as you can. For me, one of the big ones was how my pain would "come and go" and I'd have "good days and bad days" - previously that would confuse the heck out of me and I therefore tried to find patterns/causes but only later did I realize this is classic TMS behavior.

As for your structural causation, just for clarification what do you mean by 2 or 3 runs are pain free but the 4th isn't? Is that the 4th consecutive day? Or is it 4 runs in a week? 2 weeks? I think like Diane said above, your mind is trying to latch onto a pattern for you to fixate on, but it's also possible that you're overusing it and feeling pain as a result.

 

[Thomas M. Shields]

Sorry to hear you're having knee issues. I realize I haven't updated this thread with my symptoms but my knee is about as good as it's ever been. I actually rarely feel pain anymore, and I even marvel still when I descend stairs or do any other activity that used to elicit pain, but it doesn't!

I like that you're doing Evidence Sheets, I'd suggest leaning into that and add as many other line items (to each side) as you can. For me, one of the big ones was how my pain would "come and go" and I'd have "good days and bad days" - previously that would confuse the heck out of me and I therefore tried to find patterns/causes but only later did I realize this is classic TMS behavior.

As for your structural causation, just for clarification what do you mean by 2 or 3 runs are pain free but the 4th isn't? Is that the 4th consecutive day? Or is it 4 runs in a week? 2 weeks? I think like Diane said above, your mind is trying to latch onto a pattern for you to fixate on, but it's also possible that you're overusing it and feeling pain as a result.

Thanks for your reply.

My runs barely test my cardio and I usually put two days rest in between each one for good measure. I didn't mean to imply that run 4 is strictly the point at which I hit the pain barrier but the discomfort usually starts creeping in around that time and becomes too much to bear by the 8 or 9th.

I'm going to take 4-6 weeks out to work on my flexibility and lower body strength and then try to ease my way back into the running to see if I fare any better.

As I noted before, running is the most reliable remedy I've found for anxiety and it frustrates me immensely that, for the first time in my life, my nice lean limbs are letting me down. Swimming is the only other form of exercise that offers the meditative aspect of running but the pools near me are filthy. Walking and cycling are passable substitutes.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

I haven't heard much in terms of what your symptoms are except for pain. Is the pain during the running? Is it immediate? If so, does it lessen after a mile or 2 warmup? Does it subside after? Are you sore? If so, for how long? Classic Runners Knee is also considered "Movie knee" as it manifests when in the sitting position. Going up, and especially down stairs is usually problematic. The pain symptoms would determine what kind of knee issue you potentially have.

As for alternative activities, uphill walking on a steep treadmill is something you might want to try. It's mindless and therefore meditative, and at 4mph and 15% incline, it's roughly the equivalent of running 9-10 min/mile flat.

 

[Giofe86]

Sorry to hear you're having knee issues. I realize I haven't updated this thread with my symptoms but my knee is about as good as it's ever been. I actually rarely feel pain anymore, and I even marvel still when I descend stairs or do any other activity that used to elicit pain, but it doesn't!

I like that you're doing Evidence Sheets, I'd suggest leaning into that and add as many other line items (to each side) as you can. For me, one of the big ones was how my pain would "come and go" and I'd have "good days and bad days" - previously that would confuse the heck out of me and I therefore tried to find patterns/causes but only later did I realize this is classic TMS behavior.

As for your structural causation, just for clarification what do you mean by 2 or 3 runs are pain free but the 4th isn't? Is that the 4th consecutive day? Or is it 4 runs in a week? 2 weeks? I think like Diane said above, your mind is trying to latch onto a pattern for you to fixate on, but it's also possible that you're overusing it and feeling pain as a result.

I am very happy about your message. I am crying for you. Really.
For us it is a great hope. Could you help the group with your advice and write a summary of your success story (Symptoms, Treatment, Work). I am almost sure I have TMS, but I would like to understand how to be sure, even unconsciously. Have you worked on your emotions or just on fear?

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

I am very happy about your message. I am crying for you. Really.
For us it is a great hope. Could you help the group with your advice and write a summary of your success story (Symptoms, Treatment, Work). I am almost sure I have TMS, but I would like to understand how to be sure, even unconsciously. Have you worked on your emotions or just on fear?

Hi - My success story is pretty much this thread, although maybe you're right I should post an actual synopsis in the official Success Stories section.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Could you help the group

That's a big ask, and as a moderator with 14 years here, I need to express that it's not appropriate. For one thing, this is a request from you alone, not from "the group".

There are tons of stories and resources here on the forum and on the main TMSWiki.org. You've only ever interacted on this thread, which may be one of several reasons that you are stuck.

Doing this work effectively requires a few prerequisites. One is to be willing and able to open your mind to the many different ways in which you can recover and develop lifelong skills to manage your TMS. Another is to accept that no one is going to hold your hand and tell you exactly what to do, because that doesn't work. You have to put in the work.

@Mr Hip Guy, I agree with you that this comprehensive thread DOES constitute your success story as well as an ongoing narrative of what it takes. I myself never wrote a separate success story, for various reasons.

 

[Giofe86]

That's a big ask, and as a moderator with 14 years here, I need to express that it's not appropriate. For one thing, this is a request from you alone, not from "the group".

There are tons of stories and resources here on the forum and on the main TMSWiki.org. You've only ever interacted on this thread, which may be one of several reasons that you are stuck.

Doing this work effectively requires a few prerequisites. One is to be willing and able to open your mind to the many different ways in which you can recover and develop lifelong skills to manage your TMS. Another is to accept that no one is going to hold your hand and tell you exactly what to do, because that doesn't work. You have to put in the work.

@Mr Hip Guy, I agree with you that this comprehensive thread DOES constitute your success story as well as an ongoing narrative of what it takes. I myself never wrote a separate success story, for various reasons.

Thank you for your answer.

I don't know where to start. It all started with 10 squats and some overload, 8 months ago. From then on I immediately felt scared and, after a few hours, pain. I read "Mindbody Prescription" and "The way Out". Now I'm reading "Unlearn your pain".

But I have two main problems: 1. Having so many tools, maybe too many. 2. I would like to understand which symptoms are compatible with TMS.

I feel pain in both knees, on the inside and under the kneecap, but also itching, sensitivity to the skin (even a drop of water or the sun bothers me). When walking sometimes it goes well, other times less. When sitting it always goes badly. When lying down is when I feel the most changes: the more anxious I am, the worse it is. If I bend my knees while sleeping on my side I feel more pain.

My personality is typical of TMS (perfectionism, goodism, guilt, constant pressure, insecurity, anxiety, parent with anxiety and severity). I have had many psychosomatic illnesses in my life. Even last summer I got a slight ankle sprain in June and the pain came back in September. Then it disappeared after reading the results of the MRI (completely clean).

Now I have anxiety and fear attacks, almost shortness of breath, which I can't cope with. I have read the theories of Scott Dye, Paul Ingraham (website Painscience), Doug Kelsey and others according to which we should expand the envelope of the function starting from the little that we can do without pain. This thesis, fascinating, creates a bit of fear in me. It seems to me, in fact, a gradual exposure to danger (compatible with TMS approach), but I would not like to load too much or go up the stairs without crutches with the risk of having more inflammation and burning.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

@Giofe86, I would recommend a structured program which includes emotional self-examination, following Sarno's theory of repression. The classic is the Unlearn Your Pain workbook from Dr Howard Schubiner, MD. Our free Structured Educational Program is probably based on that workbook. You can find it at our main TMSwiki.org website. It is completely free of cost or any kind of registration. Pay attention to the advice for getting the most out of it. Nicole Sachs has paid courses, but listening to her free podcasts is a good accompaniment to any program because she follows the emotional mindfulness/awareness protocol of Dr Sarno.

Also, if you would like support, I would urge you to start your own thread on the Support subforum, rather than continuing on somebody else's thread.

My final piece of advice is to stop with the physical descriptions, and start thinking psychologically!

 

[Giofe86]

@Giofe86, I would recommend a structured program which includes emotional self-examination, following Sarno's theory of repression. The classic is the Unlearn Your Pain workbook from Dr Howard Schubiner, MD. Our free Structured Educational Program is probably based on that workbook. You can find it at our main TMSwiki.org website. It is completely free of cost or any kind of registration. Pay attention to the advice for getting the most out of it. Nicole Sachs has paid courses, but listening to her free podcasts is a good accompaniment to any program because she follows the emotional mindfulness/awareness protocol of Dr Sarno.

Also, if you would like support, I would urge you to start your own thread on the Support subforum, rather than continuing on somebody else's thread.

My final piece of advice is to stop with the physical descriptions, and start thinking psychologically!

Thank you for your help. I am already trying with Unlearn your pain program.

Just two questions (since you're reading my story, I'll open a thread later):
1. Do you think I have TMS? It's weird for me to feel the same pain all the time. It moves around, but mostly on the inside of my knees. My daughter was born in May. In June I sprained my ankle. Only in September did I have pain in the same ankle, which disappeared only at the end of November after a completely "clean" MRI. A doctor friend of mine says it seems like a sort of postpartum depression. But it's strange that it all starts from overload exercises. It seems like there's a cause!
The knee MRI is the same as 3 years ago (first degree chondromalacia), but I don't want to convince myself that I have TMS incorrectly. In the forum it seems that everything is linked to TMS, but I don't think that every disease has such an important psychological basis. Am I wrong?
2. I had serious problem for 8 months in 2018 with the same symptoms. I felt better after spending about 5-10 days with a friend, caring for his dying mother. -80% on right knee, -30% on left. I had an unfair surgery in 2010 on my left knee. An arthroscopy with no activity, just for the profit of the scam surgeon.

Thank you very much for your time.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

Thank you for your answer.

I don't know where to start. It all started with 10 squats and some overload, 8 months ago. From then on I immediately felt scared and, after a few hours, pain. I read "Mindbody Prescription" and "The way Out". Now I'm reading "Unlearn your pain".

But I have two main problems: 1. Having so many tools, maybe too many. 2. I would like to understand which symptoms are compatible with TMS.

I feel pain in both knees, on the inside and under the kneecap, but also itching, sensitivity to the skin (even a drop of water or the sun bothers me). When walking sometimes it goes well, other times less. When sitting it always goes badly. When lying down is when I feel the most changes: the more anxious I am, the worse it is. If I bend my knees while sleeping on my side I feel more pain.

My personality is typical of TMS (perfectionism, goodism, guilt, constant pressure, insecurity, anxiety, parent with anxiety and severity). I have had many psychosomatic illnesses in my life. Even last summer I got a slight ankle sprain in June and the pain came back in September. Then it disappeared after reading the results of the MRI (completely clean).

Now I have anxiety and fear attacks, almost shortness of breath, which I can't cope with. I have read the theories of Scott Dye, Paul Ingraham (website Painscience), Doug Kelsey and others according to which we should expand the envelope of the function starting from the little that we can do without pain. This thesis, fascinating, creates a bit of fear in me. It seems to me, in fact, a gradual exposure to danger (compatible with TMS approach), but I would not like to load too much or go up the stairs without crutches with the risk of having more inflammation and burning.

This almost sounds like the result if someone asked ChatGPT to describe a typical TMS sufferer. You should rule out ligament/tendon tears with a doctor, but absolutely these are major signs of TMS. You need to do the work though, JanAtheCPA has wonderfully provided guidance to you above and this thread is full of what has worked for me. Good luck.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Your question

Do you think I have TMS?

My response is still

if you would like support, I would urge you to start your own thread on the Support subforum, rather than continuing on somebody else's thread.

Also

this thread is full of what has worked for me. Good luck.

 

[Owyhee1]

I’m a decades long Sarno/TMS student. Cured of severe back pain decades ago.

In the last few weeks been dealing with PFPS, not suspecting it was TMS. After a decade of infrequent cycling, I began riding 60 miles a week this spring.

As I ramped up my intensity and mileage to over 100 a week, my left knee began aching. I backed it back down these past few weeks which has kept the pain very low, but persistent.

Tonight I finally started thinking maybe it’s TMS, and have read this entire thread.

I’m encouraged and will begin immediately working on this. I’m 66 years old and have rekindled my life long love of cycling, this thread should give me the jump start I need!

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

This is awesome, thanks for sharing.

FYI - My knee is as good as ever. I rarely even think about it.

 

[Owyhee1]

In the last 7 days I have daily worked on TMS as I know it (I’m not up to speed on all the latest). My understanding comes pretty much from “The Divided Mind”

I cycled close to normal this week, ordering the knee pain to go away as needed. This has worked well, except my back blew up this AM. (Which is far better than knee pain for me)

I will have no problem dealing with back pain, which is a bit better this afternoon.

Anyway, this all confirms my PFPS is TMS or equivalent, which is a huge relief.