Hi everyone, I'll be posting a preliminary version of the chat log here later today. I just wanted to make a placeholder thread that people can respond to until then to share their reactions to the event. Until then, check out the following pages and threads! http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/The_Great_Pain_Deception http://tmswiki.org/forum/threads/tms-the-man-sarno.285/ http://tmswiki.org/forum/threads/tm...on-of-ch-1-2-of-the-great-pain-deception.407/ Next week we will continue our regular discussion of chapters 1-5 of the book. Update: Here's a preliminary chat log. I'm off to take a shower and take some me time, but I will do a bit more editing later. In making this rush transcript, I’ve deleted most admin stuff (i.e. many of Matthew's contributions), but many thanks to Matthew for moderating today. JanA: I think Matthew is moderating today, but I can help guests change their names and text colors guest773: is this the right place to "hear" steve? JanA: Hi 773, yes, that's right - Forest just confirmed Steve O is going to join us today Danielle: Really?!? JanA: 773, do you want to change to a screen name? Danielle: Danielle: woohoo. JanA: I know! guest773: ok...don't know how tho JanA: 773, left-click on the number to the left of the text box JanA: I mean, the guest773 guest773: guest773 changes nickname to cindyo6 JanA: There ya go - Hi Cindy! cindyo6: TY! JanA: TY? cindyo6: TY = thank you, for helping me change from 773 to cindyo6 JanA: You're welcome! guest191: guest191 changes nickname to Steve Ozanich Forest: I just got a text from Matthew saying that he might be a little late. He's the moderator today. Forest: And it looks like we have our honored guest! Forest: Steve is here! Danielle: beach girl: Hi Steve! Melanie: Hi Steve, LOVING your book!!! beach girl: Loving the book. Steve Ozanich: thanks for the invite, it was an honor Forest: We are so honored to have you here, Steve. JanA: Yes, the book is awesome Melanie: It's an honor to get to talk with you, can't put the book down. Steve Ozanich: I hope my book is helping many people beach girl: thanks to you Steve - I took a walk sans pain meds! cindyo: the book is incredible, and it IS a REAL honor to have you here, steve Steve Ozanich: I wrote it to help people from suffering JanA: I wrote on the forum that I had an important AHA moment just in Chapter 1 Danielle: Hi Steve, thanks for coming! Steve Ozanich: how are is everybody into it? Veronica: I'm starting chapter 5. BG, glad to hear you are doing so much better! Danielle: just finished chapter 5 Steve Ozanich: it appears it's taking about 3 months to get through on average beach girl: thanks - I'm braver now JanA: I'm still only part-way through Ch. 3 :^( Forest: Beach Girl did a video of her own watershed moment. You can watch it and comment here: http://www.TMSwiki.org/forum/threads/breaking-pain-news.413/ JanA: 3 months! Forest: There's a lot in there... the paragraphs are quite dense. beach girl: after chapter 5 - I knew I could do it. MorComm: Chapter 3 last night. cindyo: it's so dense and full of information. a huge undertaking to write it, i'm sure wilberfan: Hey, Jan... [waves at SteveO] Steve Ozanich: I would love to see that video of the watershed of beachy JanA: "beachy" LOL! beach girl: it is still making me smile Steve Ozanich: hey Wilber been a long time since we spoke, you're in the book ya know wilberfan: Hey, Steve...any reactions to the book you didn't anticipate...? Steve Ozanich: yes, I have been astonished at how many people ask me about medical questions Forest: It's a thrilling video.... Beach Girl is actually Annie from the Gordon call: http://www.TMSwiki.org/forum/threads/breaking-pain-news.413/ www.TMSwiki.org/forum/threads/i-am-annie.380/page-3 JanA: Steve, they do that all over the forum wilberfan: you mean, like, non-TMS questions...? Steve Ozanich: I wanted to talk to annie later I listened to the gordon call Forest: Glad to hear it. It's really good, isn't it? beach girl: oh wow - that's me! Steve Ozanich: people are asking me all about their health but I'm only a TMS guy JanA: wilberfan, on the forum we often have to remind people we're not medical pros! Forest: So I'm realizing that this is a special "meeting of the tribes," here. Steve Ozanich: the redhead was an integral part of the writing and my healing, great woman JanA: Steve, how do YOU handle those medical questions wilberfan: Steve, has the book had a bigger (or lesser) impact than you anticipated...? Steve Ozanich: I tell them that I'm not a doctor just a researched and former TMS sufferer Steve Ozanich: any specific question on my book Forest: We've got many visitors from the "RapidRecovery" Yahoo Group, a group that SteveO has been a member of for a long time. It's run by Fred Amir, another guy who has a great success story and wrote a book about it. http://www.TMSwiki.org/ppd/Rapid_Recovery_From_Back_and_Neck_Pain Melanie: OMG, I want to know about hitting your leg until you could sit. Steve Ozanich: I studied Thich Nhat Hanh and many philosophers to heal beach girl: that appeals to me a lot Steve Ozanich: oh the night of the leg beating Danielle: Steve I had one about your use of progressive relaxation MorComm: Steve Ozanich, But so many TMS symptoms are similar to symptoms due to medical conditions. It's hard to avoid, isn't it? By just eliminating medical causes you're sort of diagnosing, aren't you? Steve Ozanich: I knew that I had to create a distraction from the pain by forcing another distraction and it worked in a half hour Danielle: You said that you did soothing stuff in the evenings like relaxation practices? Melanie: and how hard did she need to hit you to get the distraction? beach girl: that resonated with me Steve Ozanich: I refuse to diagnose anyone, I tell them upfront, but I tell them how to heal from TMS, Forest: By the way, I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that unlike our regular drop in chats, edited logs of our book discussions are made publicly available. Thus, make sure to keep private info private and/or use a good pseudonym. Steve Ozanich: they must determine if they have it like I did, MorComm: Steve Ozanich, You sort of run out of physical diagnoses after a long period of time. Then, it dawns on you. After that, it becomes obvious. Steve Ozanich: well, everything is TMS unless it's an injury or poison to the system or congenital Forest: Also, because we have a special guest here, let's keep things relatively focused on discussions with him (is that okay, Steve?). We want to make the best use we can of this opportunity. JanA: Danielle asked about progressive relaxation - the antithesis of leg-beating Steve Ozanich: only an MD can make the diagnosis but each person owns their life JanA: Good way to put it! Steve Ozanich: It's vital to use relaxation techniques, people underestimate them JanA: writing that down guest378: The belief that there is structural damage is difficult to overcome. When pain in a specific location goes on for years, it's a pretty good bet that it's TMS wilberfan: I used to have terrible "leg aches" as a child--wonder if I was a budding Type T back then...? Danielle: But the relaxation technique should not focus on a particular body part? beach girl: yes Steve - that is what helped me a lot beach girl: down time - morning and night beach girl: just time for me Steve Ozanich: the most difficult thing in healing is overcoming the medical doctors’ errors in teaching us what we have beach girl: down time Forest: Relaxation techniques seem helpful for getting the parasympathetic nervous system to balance out the sympathetic nervous system and break the TMS effect Danielle: like there is one style of yoga that i love, and it releases the spine a lot and puts me in really deep relaxation, but the focus is on releasing the spine starting at the tailbone MorComm: Steve Ozanich, I find pranayama breathing exercises and meditation quite effective at getting a distance on the obsessional elements that drive TMS. Yes. Steve Ozanich: I focused on certain body areas like my back sometimes but they should be done for overall body too Forest: By the way, if you want to say something to specific person, you can click on their name in the chat log. Danielle: so i wonder if that is too structural, because i know if i get a deep release in my pelvis then all the pain goes away Veronica: Svaroopa, Danielle? What if you think of it as being focused on releasing energy starting at the base of the spine vs. the structure? guest378: Any here tried the Alexander Technique? Book by Missy Vineyard is helping me greatly, it's very much in line with what Steve is talking about. Steve Ozanich: yes, I am a pranayama instructor Melanie: Steve Ozanich, when I am in the swimming pool, I have absolutely NO pain. Everyone keeps saying it's the unweighting but could it just be de-stressing? Steve Ozanich: the swimming pool is a placebo I went through that phase too Danielle: guest378 i used to do a ton of the alexander technique, even did half the training. it is awesome but it was not enough at the time MorComm: Melanie, same when i ride my road bike. good to create an opening in the pain like that. it's an important first step. Steve Ozanich: sorry if I can't catch all your questions it's like playing dodgeball by myself against 20 people Danielle: haha JanA: Danielle, if you are having pain in a particular place, I believe that any kind of visualization of it releasing is valuable JanA: Because you are using your MIND JanA: Steve - we understand! guest378: Alexander Technique is about training your mind away from the sensations of the body Danielle: JanA, it's not pain there (i have pain all over), bur releasing a certain place, which releases the spine, helps the pain everywhere. so it's confusing. Steve Ozanich: let me watch for a minute to see the flow beach girl: isn't that thinking physically? MorComm: Steve Ozanich, it's like that every Sat. except this time there are a lot more attendees. Danielle: guest378 yeah that is very cool about it. but a lot of people teach it too structurally. Steve Ozanich: is there a specific TMS question I can be of help on? something in my book not clear? wilberfan: I'm only up to chapter 2... ;-) beach girl: I have skipped around a bit - but ch.5 really got me going! JanA: Steve, I like this question of where do you draw the line between treatment that is a crutch vs. treatment that is self-actualizing MatthewNJ<MOD>: @ Steve Ozanich, did you see a TMS doctor? sorry I haven't read your book yet Steve Ozanich: the first 2 chpaters are the toughest Melanie: The book is fabulous. There are so many paragraphs I need to read a few times to get the most out of them. Steve Ozanich: I never saw a TMS doc at that time there weren’t any MatthewNJ<MOD>: @Steve Ozanich, k, thnaks beach girl: your journey is very inspiring Steve Ozanich: I took my life in my hands becuase I fit the personality as Dr, Sarno described perfectly Forest: Steve asked if there's a specific question he can be of help on, perhaps something from his book. Let's try to focus on that if there are such questions. Alternatively, if someone came here looking for general help and support, perhaps they can get some help from Steve. Danielle: yeah highlights all over the place wilberfan: What years did your experience cover...? MorComm: Steve Ozanich, So when did you realize that it was all TMS in retrospect? At what point did the illumination occur? After reading Sarno? Forest: Yeah, it's a very dense read. I've skimmed the first five chapters, but skipped around an awful lot. I feel like I need to go back and reread them. Steve Ozanich: I think people willl need to read my book a few times it is packed with info guest378: It took me three months to read Stevie's book, I have tailbone pain so I only read on the treadmill at the gym. His book was (is) very inspiring. Steve Ozanich: it took 10 years working with some very bright people to finish Forest: Any specific questions about the book? Dig deep into your memories Steve Ozanich: it looks like they are just beginning the book maybe too soon to offer an opinion' Steve Ozanich: any questions on TMS? I would love to help clear some things up JanA: Steve, you already explained the process behind Chapter 1, I was excited to understand that JanA: Oops, I meant to say, on the forum Melanie: Steve, in general it seems you took to physical exercise a lot and made baby steps while running, hitting golf balls, etc. Were you also doing mental exercises during that period? wilberfan: Steve, my ongoing (30+ year) issue is "Chronic Fatigue"... (both the redhead and I!) You cover that oh-so-briefly... Anywhere else you could send me for more info...? Steve Ozanich: yes, I did the physical and the mental all except the journaling I found that to make me worse JanA: Let's talk about journaling! That's a problem for a lot of people! JanA: Some of us think it's essential wilberfan: JanA, it used to piss me off to have to journal...! beach girl: I think you have to like to write JanA: Others would love to hear that it's not Steve Ozanich: I never had fatigue but you can go back to Freud info guest760: SteveO, were some of the other issues you mentioned in your book TMS too? i.e. elbow guest961: Hi Steve have read the whole book and its amazing. I can see why it took 10 years to write. I will have to re-read it many more times to get the best out of it. Has helped so much already thank you Forest: Hold on, let's focus on the journaling idea for a bit. MorComm: Steve Ozanich, journaling transformed my TMS pain into ongoing anxiety. But when I discovered that the two were equivalents, journaling seemed to help release a lot of repressed emotionality. Steve Ozanich: I broke my eblow so that was not TMS Steve Ozanich: I think journaling is great doc sarno does too, but I knew where it was going I wanted to skip to the end Steve Ozanich: I can quickly talk if you want? Melanie: Sorry, it's just exciting seeing the author here when we are all reading his book. wilberfan: That would certainly help the 'flow'... MorComm: Steve Ozanich, please do! wilberfan: Yeah, next weekend let's get Sarno or Sopher in here... ;-) Steve Ozanich: I can't thank dr sarno enough I told him he saved my life wilberfan: I'll bet he's (literally) heard that a LOT... Steve Ozanich: he said he never gets tired of hearing it and he thanked me for writing the book wilberfan: I think it's great to have a "layman" book out there--by someone who's actually gone THROUGH all of it... Steve Ozanich: I was honored to have him endorse it but he told me the resistance would be great and he was right wilberfan: Even though most of the existing books were written by "former TMS sufferers" (most of them doctors, tho...) Steve Ozanich: I wrote to show people that anyone can heal no matter how bad or how long the pain is there wilberfan: It's such an inspirational example... it "proves" what can be accomplished... Forest: One of my favorite parts of the book is where you say, “From the thousand people, or so, Iâ€™ve communicated with regarding TMS, it has taken an average of about five months to two years to heal.” It seems like that is an antidote to calendar watching. Steve Ozanich: I'm receiving hundreds of emails now from around the world from people saying it has helped them Steve Ozanich: So far it is doing what I had hoped Danielle: it is really inspirational, especially because it wasn't quick for you guest378: The hardest thing is to buy the TMS idea 100%, we tend to want to believe "something" is broken so we can fix it. beach girl: ok - I won't email you then - I said it here Steve Steve Ozanich: The most important aspect is belief Forest: One thing I found inspiring is how you kept at it. I found that inspiring because I think a lot of people struggle with it. beach girl: YES MatthewNJ<MOD>: @guest378, something IS broken, we tend to miss that and treat the wrong thing! Steve Ozanich: but we are so inundated with false info from MDs that we fear taking out life into our hands Melanie: How long was your healing journey from where you truly believed until you had no pain? Forest: What tips do you have for people who are struggling with committing to full belief? wilberfan: I found it extraordinarily helpful to get the constant reassurances and encouragement from Fred's Yahoo group... (this was 10 years ago?) MorComm: guest378, yes, my mind keeps grabbing at the structural diagnosis no matter how much I know about TMS. Perhaps, it's our scientific materialist culture. TMS goes against the grain. MatthewNJ<MOD>: @Steve Ozanich, right and then we treat the symptom NOT the real cause Steve Ozanich: but as Andre Weil stated as a physician he can't really do anything all healing comes from within Steve Ozanich: yes treating symptoms is great for moneymaking but bad for health beach girl: his breathing cd is great Danielle: yeah Steve when you said you were 99.9999% sure of the diagnosis but it still quite enough, that hits home!! Forest: I've been noticing that more and more myself. When people struggle accepting the diagnosis, I realize that true acceptance has to come from them. Steve Ozanich: Dr Sopher has said the emporer has no clothers MatthewNJ<MOD>: totally agree Steve Ozanich: you either see TMS or you dont Steve Ozanich: only about 20% believe in it Forest: So no tips for those who are struggling? (struggling to get to 100% acceptance?) Steve Ozanich: and about 95% of them heal MatthewNJ<MOD>: and when you SEE it the world changes! it did for me Melanie: I just ordered Dr. Sarno's CD, I believe you said it really helped you listen to it again and again. Steve Ozanich: if you're struggling please be persistent Steve Ozanich: I had many setbacks Forest: I knew you'd have some! Steve Ozanich: but what is your alternative? MatthewNJ<MOD>: my suggestion would be to stop struggling, and accept, love yourself beach girl: @Melanie - I think it's all in how we get "it" guest378: The reason it is hard to become a "believer" is that the physical symptoms are so in our face, believing TMS feels like denial. guest961: steve do you really think deep down only 20% of Doctors believe in it? Steve Ozanich: You cannot heal until you learn to love yourself good observation Matthew Steve Ozanich: TMS is a kind of self-loathing Steve Ozanich: low self-esteemed self-punishment MatthewNJ<MOD>: I think LOTS of doctors believe, but if their patients don't, they can't help them from a TMS perspective guest760: What about mitral valve prolapse - Sarno says its TMS but Sopher doesn't think so beach girl: yes - the inner critic beating us up wilberfan: Jeez, no WONDER I had so many symptoms... :-\ MorComm: Steve Ozanich, so will anyone with perfectionist traits and low self-esteem fall victim to TMS? Or does it take some catalytic traumatic event to trigger the response? Steve Ozanich: everyone who lives will experience TMS it is universal and unavoidable JanA: That's what I think Steve Ozanich: we cannot escape pain it a part of the human condition' MatthewNJ<MOD>: @ Steve Ozanich, I agree too guest961: and how much of the nature versus nurture is responsible Steve Ozanich: it's when it lowers our quality of life that we take action to rebalance Steve Ozanich: TMS is a message and a distraction JanA: 961, that's the $10mil question guest378: One of themost difficult things about chronic pain is that it promotes extreme self-centeredness, we are endlessly thinking"poor me" even though we are NOT aware of it. Steve Ozanich: which one jan? MorComm: Steve Ozanich, I had a recurrent cough like yours right after a so-called herniated disk that followed immediately after my mother's death. Didn't realize the cough was TMS too until I read your story in Chapt. 3. Your book helped me detect larger patterns over time. JanA: Steve, nature vs. nurture s the source Steve Ozanich: thanks Morcomm I hope it helped you Forest: By the way, I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that unlike our regular drop in chats, edited logs of our book discussions are made publicly available. Thus, make sure to keep private info private and/or use a good pseudonym. JanA: Although it’s probably nurture Steve Ozanich: yes, nature vs nurture Steve Ozanich: nature provides congenital probems but its mostly environmental Steve Ozanich: there’s no genetics in TMS JanA: I believe that a pathological condition can be made worse by TMS - or relieved to some extent by TMS awareness guest961: i am interested in what you think steve of the nature versus nurture. I did notice you had written you didn’t think it was hereditary, but do you think we are born as a blank canvas or with a personality that could be a fertile breeding ground for TMS? Steve Ozanich: yes, it’s called psychological overlay Steve Ozanich: all illnes and pain have some psych components to them because we add fear JanA: Jan writing that down, too MorComm: JanA, yes, I think TMS does interact and intensify existing real medical conditions. That's sort of a blurry area. But pure TMS, no. MatthewNJ<MOD>: @guest961, I suggest your read or youtube Dr. Bruce Lipton "Biology of Belief" MatthewNJ<MOD>: that is all about environment Steve Ozanich: yes I spoke with Lipton in writing MatthewNJ<MOD>: @Steve Ozanich, and fear is all around us daily, FED to us by the news media guest961: thanks will do MatthewNJ<MOD>: @Steve Ozanich, amazing guy Steve Ozanich: I spoke to some of the brightest minds out there including Simonton and MacClean Steve Ozanich: yes I speak heavily on the media in my book and the job they do to keep us in fear guest961: just can’t understand why 2 people brought up in same environment can turn out so different Steve Ozanich: the only fear is ignorance Forest: Great Q, 961 Steve Ozanich: people react differently due to personality Steve Ozanich: one sees the light the other the darkness wilberfan: I would have used the word "temprament", but yes.... Steve Ozanich: we create our outer worlds by our inner perceptions Forest: I believe someone had a question about whether Mitral Valve Prolapse is TMS? Forest: By the way, I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that unlike our regular drop in chats, edited logs of our book discussions are made publicly available. Thus, make sure to keep private info private and/or use a good pseudonym. guest961: oops yes i was the darkness but as in you book in the circle turning to face the light Steve Ozanich: I cant diagnose but I believe it is TMS, MVP I had it too wilberfan: Ditto... Steve Ozanich: I know without doubt I gave MVP to myself I remember the anxiety then wilberfan: Same with the redhead, I believe... wilberfan: (a mutual friend of steve and I, just FYI) Steve Ozanich: my mind altered my heart I have no doubt Forest: Steve, what our visitors are most interested in is generally how to heal. How would you summarize the Steve Ozanich approach to healing? Steve Ozanich: several people told me their heart murmurs disappeared after TMS healing guest760: About MVP - how can the brain affect the valve? I understand how it can anxiety. Danielle: cool! (about the heart murmurs) JanA: I sometimes feel like I'm really "out there" if I think that a pathological condition might have a TMS component so I love hearing this Steve Ozanich: first in healing you must fully believe in TMS it’s like being kinda pregnant MatthewNJ<MOD>: Dr. Bob Evans has told me that he believes almost anything can be TMS, short of a Broken leg Forest: That's what we're here for, JanA Steve Ozanich: you must accept the TMS concept Steve Ozanich: then you should forget everything you think you know about pain beach girl: if we're accepting - then why the setbacks? JanA: I keep reminding myself that the brain is in control of every single thing that occurs in our bodies Steve Ozanich: dont forget the physical exam first! Steve Ozanich: then set goals MatthewNJ<MOD>: @beach girl because you are human Steve Ozanich: keep re-doing and rereading the TMS info Melanie: physical goals? Steve Ozanich: it’s like a sponge the size of a car that you’re making wet with an eye dropper MorComm: Steve Ozanich, seems like stopping going to pilates and seeing the acupuncturist have actually resulted in a reduction in my pain. Not that those activities in and of themselves are so bad, fun in fact, and relaxing. But they do seem to reinforce the physical diagnosis. I'm much bettter without them. Steve Ozanich: you need to soak that car sized sponge to alter the brains behavior but it takes one drop at a time JanA: Morcomm, same here Forest: Hold on MC, I'm not sure if Steve is finished with the last Q... Steve Ozanich: be patient and never try to heal beach girl: Jan - write that down Steve Ozanich: the more you try to heal the worse you get Forest: I like that metaphor about the car and the eye dropper. It's really crucially important to be patient. Forest: So true! JanA: Jan writing it down - the sponge, right? Really good Steve Ozanich: the idea is to forget about healing and live beach girl: really good jan Forest: Amen! beach girl: YES Steve Ozanich: take away the reason for the pain not the pain MatthewNJ<MOD>: @Steve Ozanich, very Tao I LKE it guest961: Steve you wrote a great bit in your book going from 'you think you have TMS to you KNOW you have TMS with all the bits in the middle and think that is they key to really start healing. Forest: When you get a chance, if you could explain a bit more about the goals... MorComm: Steve Ozanich, yes stop trying and chill out. Kinda difficult to do when you're obsessed with your symptoms though. Steve Ozanich: dr sarno said he has no technique for taking away pain, only stress Forest: And that is through understanding? guest378: Something inside us caused TMS, that same energy can uncause it, yes? beach girl: that is the tough one for me - stress' Steve Ozanich: the pain is a byproduct of persoanlity thats why I spend so much time on it in the book Forest: How does one take away the stress? Steve Ozanich: yes, you caused your TMS and you can undo it Forest: That's one thing I really liked about the tiny bit I've read of the book. It helped me better understand myself. Steve Ozanich: it is not blam ng the victim cause he doesnt know he did it Steve Ozanich: its outside awareness Forest: Do you have anything else to add about taking away the stress or about the Steve Ozanich recovery plan? Steve Ozanich: yes the brain wants you to obsess thats the purpsoe of TMS you have to break that fixation MorComm: Steve Ozanich, but it's still self-imposed, right? but not willed and rational. Steve Ozanich: it is self imposed because we want to be good people to fit in and to get along Forest: I tell people that a lot in the forum, but I don't have specific techniques to offer them. Any specific techniques? Gordon suggests mindfulness. I guess it is just hard.... Steve Ozanich: we cafre too much at times and this enrages us becuase we never learned how to express anger properly MorComm: Steve Ozanich, which gets back to that hypertrophic superego that's trying to be heroic, right? beach girl: something has to click Steve Ozanich: the superego is at the heart ot it all although thats a lierary device for explaning human nature Melanie: Are there any good books that help us to learn how to express anger? Steve Ozanich: we have to live with others we cant kill them when we get mad so we turn that anger inward guest378: Mindfullness is to broad a term. We need to be involved with the prefrontal cortex specifically, that's the part of the mind that we can give instructions too that will cause change Steve Ozanich: yes Facing the Fire byh John Lee MorComm: Steve Ozanich, yes, the SE is a concept, not a real physical place in the brain. very culture-specific, I'd guess. Melanie: thanks, wrote that down : ) wilberfan: Melanie, I love John Lee's books about anger... Steve Ozanich: but I loved Thich Nhat Hans Anger:Wisdom for Cooling the Flames too Steve Ozanich: Hanh made me a better person wilberfan: Yes, "Facing the Fire" was awesome... Forest: Any specific chapters in Facing the Fire that moved you? Steve Ozanich: just parts where he gathered the men into groups and told them they were safe and they broke down crying that resonated with me Forest: Steve, are there any topics that you'd like to return to that you started talking about earlier? Forest: Thanks Steve Ozanich: we repress so much we never know until we get symptoms how much we do Forest: We are sending you quite a torrent of questions Steve Ozanich: the superego is very controlling Steve Ozanich: I'm not a good typer either..lol guest961: If we have spent a lifetime with that superego and cannot escape the present stressors that fuel the flames how do we get some control back Steve Ozanich: I would rather speak verbally to people wilberfan: All these questions might make him VERY angry! :-D MorComm: Steve Ozanich, yes, i was a very successful repressor for at least 50 years. i learned a lot from my conflicted parents! Steve Ozanich: everyone over my house tonight for TMS talks Forest: Perhaps we could organize another of these like we did with Alan Gordon. I'd be happy to set it up. JanA: I like 961's question Melanie: It is hard to know what is repressed, from which part of life. Which book would be better for finding the anger that is repressed? Forest: LOL wilberfan: Cool. I'll bring steaks... guest961: yes and he is most probably a goodist thank you Steve Steve Ozanich: I thin Lee's book Steve Ozanich: Hahn’s book was about life and people he's a great man Melanie: Thank you so much, I'll order it. Forest: I think that we are asking Steve many of the hardest questions that may not have any good answers. I think it's worth asking anyway, though. beach girl: sorry steve could you spell that again? beach girl: Hanh? JanA: yes BG, page 269 in the book Steve Ozanich: Thich Nhat Nanh Forest: John Lee's Facing the Fire: http://www.amazon.com/Facing-Fire-Experiencing-Expressing-Appropriately/dp/0553372408 Danielle: @Forest yeah the call is a good idea! beach girl: thank you Steve Ozanich: its pronounced "tik nat han" Melanie: Thank you Forest! Forest: Thich Nhat Hanh's Anger: Wisdom for Cooling the Flames: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_18?url=search-alias=stripbooks&field-keywords=wisdom for cooling the flames&sprefix=wisdom for cooling,stripbooks,161 beach girl: Thank you Steve Steve Ozanich: he's a Buddhist monk who oversees Plum Village and one of the oldest monasteries in the world Steve Ozanich: we all have anger Steve Ozanich: but those who express it are ok Steve Ozanich: anger is energy so not a bad thing Steve Ozanich: unless it destroys you and others beach girl: we are a Buddhist home here Forest: I feel like I'm making so much progress in expressing my anger in the last few months. Participation in this chat and our forum has really helped. I feel very lucky for that. Steve Ozanich: so it must be directed somweher, but TMSers direct it inward beach girl: yes MorComm: Steve Ozanich, oh, anger has helped me accomplish a lot, as long as it's not misdirected at human targets guest961: except if its expressed badly at a TMS prone person Melanie: YES Steve Ozanich: yes we can use anger wisely Steve Ozanich: hahn would say send anger your love beach girl: I do that now' Forest: What does that mean? Melanie: but wouldn't that be forgiving it before it is expressed? beach girl: send love and light after anger Steve Ozanich: to embrace it since it is part of you JanA: ah, love for yourself beach girl: it helps Steve Ozanich: try to understand it not get mad at it try to figure why you have it Forest: But, beach girl, can we *decide* to send love and light or is that just more repression; trying to feel something we don't feel? beach girl: AND person you are angry with' Steve Ozanich: its organic' beach girl: yes Melanie: exactly Forest Steve Ozanich: it comes from Jungs work beach girl: part of spiritual journey I'm on too' Forest: You really like Jung. It's inspired me to get a book about him called A Primer of Jungian Psychology MorComm: Steve Ozanich, i find that sending compassion and love to myself while doing breathing exercises is quite effective at relieving TMS pain. Steve Ozanich: "one does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious" beach girl: do I have what you are describing Steve? Melanie: Someone in this room told me it doesn't have to be anger, could just be fear, hurt and sadness. What do you think about that Steve? Steve Ozanich: wishing on rainbows does little for us, but facing our flaws is everything Forest: so true, Steve... beach girl: well, doing that too Steve Ozanich: he called it withdrawing your shadow Steve Ozanich: it is painful to look at ourselves as we truly are so we give ourselves pain as a favor Melanie: Is it always anger/rage? beach girl: I think I need to read more of your book Forest: me, too! It will take a long time, though.... Steve Ozanich: easier to experience pain than seeing flaws in ourselves MorComm: Steve Ozanich, whatever I've read in Jung about the shadow I think of how much of what he says came before him in William Blake and the prophetic books. I see Jung in D.H. Lawrence too. Archetypes really are universal! beach girl: but I think I sort of get it Steve Ozanich: pain is acceptable in sciety but not emotional scars beach girl: right.on Steve Ozanich: yes, jungs work was preceded by 2000 years but he phrased it wilberfan: Do more emotionally expressive cultures have LESS TMS? MorComm: Steve Ozanich, exactly. better to have a 'bad back' than emotional problems. people at work can relate to a physical diagnosis better. Steve Ozanich: what dr, sarno has said was know long ago but he brough it back Steve Ozanich: we get rewarded for physical problems throgh days off compensation etc guest961: in your forward marc sopher said no side effect from reading. unfortunately didn’t think this was true as making the darkness concious was upsetting. MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Yes, the whole Hermetic tradition in the West precedes Jung. Steve Ozanich: but we don’t go into owrk and say "hey I'm scared, can I have Monday off?" Forest: LOL Forest: Perhaps we need to learn to do that... beach girl: I do beach girl: but I'm the boss wilberfan: Yeah. "I hate this job, AND my boss... I need two-weeks off..." Steve Ozanich: we get stigmatized as looney Forest: But you're your own boss, BG! Steve Ozanich: things are turning slowly though JanA: 961, examine the reaction, you might find the answer beach girl: see above beach girl: good one jan Steve Ozanich: all suffering comes from the resistance of truth JanA: 961 - "no side effects" means as from meds, surgery Steve Ozanich: we deny even to ourselves who we are and how we react to belong Forest: It may be scary, but just accepting the truth is so much better in the long run. JanA: but emotional reaction - that's what you want to have happen! guest961: JanA thanks yes think finding the answers but can see why the mind may give you pain to protect you. Steve Ozanich: first love yourself before you can learn to love others Danielle: (darn, lost connection, will have to check out the logs!) Steve Ozanich: you cant love someone of you dont love yourself so TMSers are often hard to love JanA: Jan writing it down... Forest: The logs will be posted here: http://TMSwiki.org/forum/forums/general-ppd-TMS-discussion-forum.2/ Steve Ozanich: if I spelled 3 words right I will be stunned...lol beach girl: lol JanA: beach girl: I appreciate the authors name' wilberfan: Yeah, dude...who typed your book for you...! :-D Forest: I love that you accept your misspellings, but I'll fix them in the log JanA: Forest! Forest: Everyone else's, too.... JanA: You don't have time! beach girl: forest=goodist guest961: wanted to say to Steve big thanks that his booked helped face the truth ( that I hadnt a clue was there !!) Steve Ozanich: so you can see paion is a byproduct of life, love isolation, rejection, fear Steve Ozanich: thank you Forest: Any other Qs? Steve Ozanich: it means a lot to hear it is working out there after such hard work to get it out JanA: I'm only in Ch 3, but already I think this may become an encyclopedia of TMS/MBS JanA: So much info and so many sources and resources Melanie: <---chapter 16 already, can't put it down beach girl: I have wanted to read more. Time and stress are huge issues with me' JanA: Excellent attributions Forest: Indeed. I prepared a bunch of questions for chapters 3-5, but perhaps we can go over those next week. Steve Ozanich: 'I've received several emails saying it was an encyclopedia of TMS, that’s what I wanted wilberfan: I liked the author photo... Didn't know Steve cleaned up so good... wilberfan: Steve Ozanich: that was a stuntman beach girl: lol MorComm: JanA, yes, i recognize so many of my own TMS symptoms in Steve's book. It's amazing. They manifest there in their pure form. wilberfan: Stunt Author! JanA: Steve, who IS this? Your inner bully? Forest: To be honest, I'm a slow reader and want to spend more time with those chapters. 1-5 is 117 pages! Steve Ozanich: dr sopher helped me see more TMS symptoms too Steve Ozanich: burning mouth syndrome blew me away Forest: Perhaps we can get him on here some time, too. JanA: Oh, my symptom list is getting longer all the time Steve Ozanich: the mind will use whateve it can to keep you from the dangerous emotions Melanie: Steve, you made me realize I have had TMS for many years but just thought I had normal allergies, aches and pains. You really put it all together. Danielle: burning mouth syndrome? Forest: Eventually, I'd really love to get Dr. Sarno in a call in, but he intimidates me! Danielle: forest--ooh what a treat! JanA: Scary, Forest! MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Until I read Chap. 3, I never realized that my cough following the herniatic disk had a psychic component too. A whole host of complaints. Obvious after reading your book though. Forest: But I'm in touch with my fear. beach girl: we'd all just sit here Steve Ozanich: doc sarno answers requests of him by not saying anythinbg..lol Forest: What do you mean? Steve Ozanich: he just igonres the question beach girl: lol Forest: Because we need to look inside ourselves? Forest: Or he's just too busy? Steve Ozanich: I've asked him a few times to do the intro to my audio book but he talks about the weather Melanie: LOL, how old is he? JanA: He's retired! Lucky him! Forest: I suppose he's earned it.... Forest: 89 or 90, Ithink Steve Ozanich: I think hes 87now Melanie: Yeah, he has earned it. Melanie: My Mom is 97 and does the same thing....talks about something else. JanA: born 1923 per Wikipedia Steve Ozanich: anyone having trouble understanding anything about TMS? JanA: Melanie, LOL! Steve Ozanich: something deeply confusinjg? Steve Ozanich: don’t be shy JanA: Steve, I guess my problem is in helping others, knowing when to recommend deeper therapy Forest: I have a question, when you mentioned your recovery plan, Steve, you mentioned goals. Did you say more about them? wilberfan: Why isn't there a pill to cure it? JanA: Good Q, Forest wilberfan: That's deeply confusing... Melanie: Yes please, would love to hear about goals. Steve Ozanich: jan A first? Forest: great! JanA: if there's an answer :^) Steve Ozanich: you recommend therpay when the SI just keeps shifting, relentlessly Steve Ozanich: forrest next Forest: JanA: Good answer! Steve Ozanich: The goals are physical goals but not to reduce pain! just movement goals Steve Ozanich: if you cant walk then crawl, if you cant stand then push your feet into the ground, do what you CAN do Melanie: Awww, that was confusing in the book. Was thinking I needed to become lots more physical to get better. Steve Ozanich: this challenges the brain by telling it you don’t fear movement Steve Ozanich: it wants to keep you down Steve Ozanich: deny it by overcoming what sarno called the physicophobia Forest: Excellent. Steve Ozanich: I see epople all the time say they can’t go because they cant sit that long MorComm: Steve Ozanich, i've found that just setting higher and higher goals for my road bike riding keeps diminishing symptoms as i achieve them. takes time, for me at least. Melanie: Sounds good. Seems like the goals would be something different to concentrate on...instead of the body. JanA: good insight, Melanie Steve Ozanich: this is palying right into the hands of the brains strategy Steve Ozanich: very good, focus on the goal and away from the body Steve Ozanich: I called it a cognitive transversal Melanie: I'm still wanting my husband to beat my left leg.....he says he just can't do it. Forest: "Crossing from one thing on to another?" JanA: Mel Forest: Would you ever recommend the beating leg thing to someone else, Steve? If so, when? Steve Ozanich: changing your awareness from bod\y to goal or another body area that feels gooood MorComm: Steve Ozanich, but that's a real skill. takes a while to learn how to do it. Steve Ozanich: In my book I said that leg beating was akin to a bull in a china closet I was new to TMS and naive guest961: after reading your book set myself a few goals of doing things i would really enjoy. I visualize it and now believe I will do it beach girl: yeah- no leg beating for me. Steve Ozanich: good! stick with your goals! don’t quit! Forest: Would you say that doing things you enjoy is a crucial part of healing? Melanie: Lol beach girl, but it worked for him. beach girl: that is steve - we're all different Melanie: But being able to sit would be .....wonderful. Steve Ozanich: yes, and no, we also must learn to so things we don’t lie to do but we should reward oursleves for all movement beach girl: agreed elanie Steve Ozanich: if you dont reward yourself quickly you get delayed reinforcement beach girl: melanie beach girl: I'm still on a high from my beach walk! Forest: Melanie, would you like specific feedback from Steve on your current state of healing? Forest: BG? Steve Ozanich: reward movement with pleasure it builds new neuropetide chains beach girl: I recall it when in pain MorComm: Steve Ozanich, but it's that feeling of accomplishment extending you range also a reward? Melanie: Steve, what would you do now to relieve your butt pain? beach girl: yes forest? JanA: MC - if you love yourself enough to acknowledge it Steve Ozanich: besides getting a divorce? I would stay active, and begin breathing exercises and meditation MorComm: JanA, yes, it is an index of returning self-esteem. Forest: Any specific Qs, BG? Perhaps not... perhaps you know what you need to do and it's just a matter of time. Steve Ozanich: there’s a difference between loving self and narcissism beach girl: I need to read more of Steve's book Melanie: Thanks for the answer Steve. Steve Ozanich: we build false personas to hide ourselves or masks beach girl: but thank you forest Forest: guest961: Steve any tips or books to read on dealing with a narcisstic person? Steve Ozanich: 'underneath is the real you in natures glory to add value to the wolrd MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Masks! So Yeatsian! Steve Ozanich: not with narcissim no sorry Steve Ozanich: I';m sure there are plenty beach girl: Great line Steve!!! Steve Ozanich: I read jung freud and cannon and groddeck, etc MorComm: Steve Ozanich, narcissism by its very nature is enraging. self-esteem is quite another matter. Melanie: So that sounds like you feel the real problem is to be found more in the present than in the past? Forest: Any favorite Freud and Jung books? Steve Ozanich: groddeck was the most fascinating person I read about Forest: Great q, Melanie... Steve Ozanich: he was a true healer guest961: that what I think has fuelled my TMS and dont have any skills to deal with it. wonder if thats a source of of rage for some? Steve Ozanich: I'm looking for Melanie’s question? JanA: 961, you can only control your reaction to it Forest: So that sounds like you feel the real problem is to be found more in the present than in the past? Melanie: thanks Forest Forest: (that's Melanie's question) Steve Ozanich: yes, even though we are who we are due to the past, we need to focus on the prsent guest961: JanA ----yes thats the difficulty is controlling my reaction repressing because have obviously been an expert at that all my life without realising it. so how not to repress is my dilemma (and enraging ha ha!!!) Melanie: wow, that is eye opening to me, would have never guessed that!!! Steve Ozanich: even Pennebaker the journaling guru said to focus on the present issues Forest: It feels like the interaction between the past and the present is the most interesting. Steve Ozanich: sometimes the we cant let go of the past until we face it it just has a hold on us' Steve Ozanich: if you're debilitated then you may need to look back Forest: Alan's seminar a couple of weeks ago did an amazing job of opening my eyes to that. We shouldn't just journal about the past. Rather, we should try to understand how the past creates an inner bully today. http://TMSwiki.org/forum/threads/june-9-drop-in-chat-with-alan-gordon-lcsw.340/ Steve Ozanich: remember the story of helen? MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Yes. In Sarno. It's a locus classicus as they say. Steve Ozanich: her pain was too deep to move on Melanie: OO Helen remembering she was molested by her father? Steve Ozanich: she needed to release it first Steve Ozanich: most of ours is not that bad we can focus on today MorComm: Melanie, yes. that story in particular when the rage comes close to the surface. Steve Ozanich: that’s why mindfulness is key to healing Forest: Great point. Forest: Is that because mindfulness is present centered? Forest: Because it helps us understand our emotions? Melanie: But didn't Helen need psychotherapy to heal? Steve Ozanich: if I can get people to think of 3 things they are thankfulk for each night their energ skyrockets Steve Ozanich: yes, but Helen was bedridden for like 2 years that’s serious Steve Ozanich: focus on today, the past is gone, the future not here yet, only today matters MorComm: Steve Ozanich, yes, spending the night out in the pouring rain and you'll realize just how lucky your are to be in a nice warm house with a shower and food. you tend to overlook those things too much. Forest: Perhaps that is a great note to end on wilberfan: guest630: guest630 changes nickname to beach girl guest961: Melanie: Nice MorComm Forest: I'm sure that we could go on all night, imposing on your goodism, but I think it's only fair that we let you go. Steve Ozanich: I really enjoyed myself wilberfan: Thanks, Mr. Steve! JanA: Thank you for coming, Steve Melanie: Thanks so much Steve. beach girl: I wanted to say - I am practing that now Forest: That's what it's about, right? JanA: And thanks for posting on the forum MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Thanks so much for your insights. guest961: Thanks Steve, off to write 10 things I am grateful for today beach girl: thank you steve Forest: Thanks so much for joining us and sharing your thoughts on the forum. Steve Ozanich: its fun for a change talking to people who acept TMS instead of arguing over it Forest: Amen! Melanie: Lol wilberfan: Yay, us! Veronica: Thanks, Steve! Forest: We want to get better! Steve Ozanich: you folks were a shear pleasure JanA: so cool beach girl: Had a date with your book today - and so nice to meet you! wilberfan: group hug, everyone! Steve Ozanich: be of great cheer you can heal just believe... Forest: What a great note to end on..... MorComm: Steve Ozanich, Thanks! Forest: Well, this chat room is always open, so when we end events, it doesn't disappear..... Steve Ozanich quit (timeout) beach girl: cool so much I want to reread wilberfan: LOL okay. nap time for moi... JanA: 961 - check the chat tabs at the top of the text screen, I've sent you a message Forest: I think it's time to wrap things up, though.... Veronica: bye everyone Forest: If anyone needs to use a chat room some other time, you can always come back. Forest: Bye everyone! wilberfan: Next time...! Thanks... Bye! Forest: OH! Melanie: Bye all Forest: Next week let's discuss chapters 3-5 as originally planned. Forest: Some of us need to catch up and I want to make this good. Veronica: sounds good. JanA: lol, MC Forest: And I do have a bunch of great Qs prepared.. JanA: Bye gang, see you on the forum JanA: Yeah, I didn't get much read this week either JanA: good job, Forest - as always Forest: keep watching http://TMSwiki.org/forum/ for updates. JanA: check in later Forest: See you later! We have the chats every Saturday at 3:00. We are currently reading Steve's book, chapter by chapter.