What else is there - Seriously

[Booble]

Booble (great name, BTW) - thank you for the reinforcement. I think what threw me for a loop was this statement by Rogue - "nervous system that has been on high alert for years in most cases is VERY reluctant to come out of it." My TMS brain read that to mean I may never get better, since I have already been working on this for 2+ years. I know he did not mean it that way.

Got it. You can think of "very reluctant" as meaning it's in the habit of doing what it does. You can change that.
Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of Rational Recovery which is a methodology for those with drinking or drug addiction problems? It's a way to basically decide to not drink again and then simply stop. No meetings. No sponsors. No relapses. Choosing to stop and doing so. It's a simple understanding that it's your lizard brain that is persuading you to drink but you control the arms and hands so you can choose otherwise. My husband who was struggling with a drinking problem watched a PowerPoint and then never drank again. He said it was like a light switch being turned on.
The same can be the case with us who allow our fear brains to persuade to stop living and hide in our caves.

 

[Booble]

Question - I may decide to try Acupuncture to see I can reduce pain. Do folks here think this is a mistake as I know Sarno would very much against body treatments.

If you've been reading the posts here from the TMS experts you already know the answer to that.

 

[warren23]

If you've been reading the posts here from the TMS experts you already know the answer to that.

Ha ha Bobble. You're right on, as usual in my experience.

 

[Booble]

Ha ha Bobble. You're right on, as usual in my experience.

The reality is and you know this --- if it's TMS then you might get a nice placebo effect from acupuncture for a day or two and then it will come right back. This is just a distraction keeping you away from solving the real issues.

 

[Cactusflower]

Question - I may decide to try Acupuncture to see I can reduce pain. Do folks here think this is a mistake as I know Sarno would very much against body treatments.

No harm in trying it for a session or two. Perhaps you will benefit from hands on care in a relaxing setting. Perhaps a new human connection is what you need, or just the act of caring for yourself in this way will be of benefit.
Won’t know until you try.

 

[warren23]

Here's something I did not expect, but maybe should have. Over the last couple of weeks, the more engaged in my life I have gotten (going into my office every day last week, and event on Tuesday evening, a trip to the Mountains over the 4th) the pain is often worse than ever. My nervous system obviously does not want to let go of the pain. Has anyone else had this type of experience?

 

[Cactusflower]

Here's something I did not expect, but maybe should have. Over the last couple of weeks, the more engaged in my life I have gotten (going into my office every day last week, and event on Tuesday evening, a trip to the Mountains over the 4th) the pain is often worse than ever. My nervous system obviously does not want to let go of the pain. Has anyone else had this type of experience?

Yes. The more I did, the more pain I had, but other symptoms seemed to slowly melt away. I think part of what you need to look at is all the other symptoms - you've mentioned many, but you need to look for the positive impact instead of dwelling on the things that spell defeat for you.
It's not easy. It won't be 100%, but try and do it occasionally.
Look for the fact you went to the office every day last week no matter what.
Praise yourself for going to an event, and going on a trip even IF it wasn't comfortable.
Part of the work is training your brain that all you are doing is absolutely safe, even if you have symptoms. It's not just your nervous system, it's a habit of the brain. Pain, negative thinking and dwelling on the less positive is like crack to parts of the brain. It's addictive. What is often termed as calming the nervous system, brain re-training and a million other names is to break the cycle of some of this addiction.
That includes not complaining about, talking about the pain and symptoms. Perhaps you might try changing the way you write your posts.

This week I went into the office every day, went to an event Tuesday and a trip over the Mountains despite the symptoms. You've communicated the symptoms are there but you've flipped the script to it being less of a message to yourself of a difficulty and more of a win. This is the types of lessons that Dan teaches in his column methods and how you begin to re-write the narrative in your head. It's what I call mindset. I would suggest that it's not some fake-o positivity lesson. That's something you totally want to avoid - keep it real, but flip things around so that they are not doom-related "obviously does not want to let go of the pain" - that's writing a story you aren't a) fully in control of and b) not necessarily true. "I still have strong symptoms AT THIS TIME" is real. This the reality you are in, and it's what you want to make sure your mind understands. You don't want to project the future, which I think is much of what you've been doing with your fears that you will never improve etc.

Do not read the above as a lack of compassion. I have HEAPS of compassion for you because your story is very much like mine. Your journey is quite similar in many ways to my own. I found that shifting the suffering - which is not the pain - but the anxiety, worry, obsession, heavy negative bias (tipping the scales even a bit helps that nervous system) helped me endure. It helped me really get into the weeds of the work of changing my reactions to responses and begin to see a new truth to what I was going through.

 

[Booble]

My nervous system obviously does not want to let go of the pain. Has anyone else had this type of experience?

Your TMS brain. Giving one last valiant effort to keep you down. Are you going to let it win?
Did you read the story somewhere in this forum about the guy who went hiking, I think the Appalachian Trail or some other long hike? He had TMS pain, he almost didn't go but went anyways, his first couple days the pain increased, the question arose of if he should turn back (which his TMS brain was pushing for), and he decided, decisively, that he was going to continue, no matter what. He said that once he made it clear that he wasn't going to turn back all the pain went away (or lessened, I can't remember).
It's such a perfect story for what is going on with us when our pain/symptoms increase when go out into the world. It tries to get us to stop and then gives up when we make it clear that we are going to continue.

 

[feduccini]

Here's something I did not expect, but maybe should have. Over the last couple of weeks, the more engaged in my life I have gotten (going into my office every day last week, and event on Tuesday evening, a trip to the Mountains over the 4th) the pain is often worse than ever. My nervous system obviously does not want to let go of the pain. Has anyone else had this type of experience?

This experience... well I have it all the time, but as frustrating it is, the symptoms shouldn't be used as metric. We have this nervous system who takes any excuse to signal danger, good or bad.

There's this discussion here about who can heal and who can't. If you think about, the same neuroplasticity that brought TMS to your circuits is the one that creates safer synapses. There's always the possibility of healing, it's just logic. What should be discussed instead is if given person is ready to face all the hard and painful work this healing asks for. Neuroscientist Lorimer Moseley is very clear about this work being incredibly hard. It might sound pessimistic, but I think it's a great advice. It reminds you it's usually a long process, where you are constantly lied to by your own mind about how long it's gonna take.

Anyway, I'll leave this link here since it's a very insightful one about the "go live life" saying, that is sometimes very infuriating to hear.
(And to be clear I'm one of those whose symptoms get painfully debilitating as I keep standing up. There are a lot of "live life" things that are very hard for me. But the part where he says the job of your nervous system is to make you believe the symptom is too intense to cope speaks directly to me.)

 

[Booble]

We have this nervous system who takes any excuse to signal danger, good or bad.

This is such an important statement.

 

[warren23]

This experience... well I have it all the time, but as frustrating it is, the symptoms shouldn't be used as metric. We have this nervous system who takes any excuse to signal danger, good or bad.

There's this discussion here about who can heal and who can't. If you think about, the same neuroplasticity that brought TMS to your circuits is the one that creates safer synapses. There's always the possibility of healing, it's just logic. What should be discussed instead is if given person is ready to face all the hard and painful work this healing asks for. Neuroscientist Lorimer Moseley is very clear about this work being incredibly hard. It might sound pessimistic, but I think it's a great advice. It reminds you it's usually a long process, where you are constantly lied to by your own mind about how long it's gonna take.

Anyway, I'll leave this link here since it's a very insightful one about the "go live life" saying, that is sometimes very infuriating to hear.
(And to be clear I'm one of those whose symptoms get painfully debilitating as I keep standing up. There are a lot of "live life" things that are very hard for me. But the part where he says the job of your nervous system is to make you believe the symptom is too intense to cope speaks directly to me.)

feduccini - thank you - that is a fantastically informative video! The process of living my life with the symptoms is incredibly difficult, but I already tried the other way, or just powered thru and endured the symptoms with this insight. If you don't mind me asking what are your symptoms?

 

[warren23]

Your TMS brain. Giving one last valiant effort to keep you down. Are you going to let it win?
Did you read the story somewhere in this forum about the guy who went hiking, I think the Appalachian Trail or some other long hike? He had TMS pain, he almost didn't go but went anyways, his first couple days the pain increased, the question arose of if he should turn back (which his TMS brain was pushing for), and he decided, decisively, that he was going to continue, no matter what. He said that once he made it clear that he wasn't going to turn back all the pain went away (or lessened, I can't remember).
It's such a perfect story for what is going on with us when our pain/symptoms increase when go out into the world. It tries to get us to stop and then gives up when we make it clear that we are going to continue.

Bobble - yes, I woke up this morning feeling just awful, intense full body aches, back and leg pain GI discomfort. I am incredulous at how poorly I feel, yet I have several business calls and a palates session later today. I am living despite even worse symptoms!

 

[feduccini]

feduccini - thank you - that is a fantastically informative video! The process of living my life with the symptoms in incredibly difficult, but I already tried the other way, or just powered thru and endured the symptoms with this insight. If you don't mind me asking what are your symptoms?

Warren, I'm glad to hear this video helped you. This guy has a very empathetic approach, less dogmatic and more focused on the human side of recovery.

My symptoms are somewhat similar to yours. I had herniated disc surgery a couple of years ago, and the backpain spread after that. Leg pain and numbness, knee pain, shoulder and neck stiffness (specially when driving), IBS sometimes, headaches, and some other symptoms I've been having for a long time and realized are TMS like tinnitus and some sort of cramp on my right hand. Oh and sometimes fatigue.

Strangely I now have a much better sleep than I used to.

 

[warren23]

Your TMS brain. Giving one last valiant effort to keep you down. Are you going to let it win?
Did you read the story somewhere in this forum about the guy who went hiking, I think the Appalachian Trail or some other long hike? He had TMS pain, he almost didn't go but went anyways, his first couple days the pain increased, the question arose of if he should turn back (which his TMS brain was pushing for), and he decided, decisively, that he was going to continue, no matter what. He said that once he made it clear that he wasn't going to turn back all the pain went away (or lessened, I can't remember).
It's such a perfect story for what is going on with us when our pain/symptoms increase when go out into the world. It tries to get us to stop and then gives up when we make it clear that we are going to continue.

Bobble - question for you. My TMS brain seems to be a master at keeping me highly focused on symptoms. As I go more actively into living my life, even with the symptoms, I have noticed the pain has increased even further, which draws me back to focusing on the symptoms and less interested in doing things. In your experience, am I unique in this regard, or can my TMS brain actually work against me this way!

 

[warren23]

Got it. You can think of "very reluctant" as meaning it's in the habit of doing what it does. You can change that.
Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of Rational Recovery which is a methodology for those with drinking or drug addiction problems? It's a way to basically decide to not drink again and then simply stop. No meetings. No sponsors. No relapses. Choosing to stop and doing so. It's a simple understanding that it's your lizard brain that is persuading you to drink but you control the arms and hands so you can choose otherwise. My husband who was struggling with a drinking problem watched a PowerPoint and then never drank again. He said it was like a light switch being turned on.
The same can be the case with us who allow our fear brains to persuade to stop living and hide in our caves.

You referenced a Power Point, do you have a recommended resource for “Rational Recovery”?

 

[warren23]

Bobble - yes, I woke up this morning feeling just awful, intense full body aches, back and leg pain GI discomfort. I am incredulous at how poorly I feel, yet I have several business calls and a palates session later today. I am living despite even worse symptoms!

Adam - really curious about your opinion, too.

 

[BloodMoon]

the part where he says the job of your nervous system is to make you believe the symptom is too intense to cope speaks directly to me.

Me too, and an excellent video imo! Thanks very much for posting it up. The guy's right on the money from my experience. I've come a long way - from being bedridden to functioning really well by comparison - by doing essentially what he advises. However, I still shirk doing some things for a protracted length of time because when I do they really hurt, so I'm going to watch a video of his a day for encouragement to change my mindset about that.

 

[Lee222]

It's not arrogance. It's trying to help people. The TMS brain will do everything it can to stop you from recovering because, by definition, its goal is literally to stop you from experiencing those emotions. So when people say "it doesn't work for me" what we hear is "you've got a really strong protective TMS brain."
The more we try to offer guidance the more you might feel like we are dogmatic a-holes. In my opinion, if you feel such strong negative negative feelings about this, it's because you've got a lot of stuff tucked away that your lizard brain is doing a heck of a job keeping you away from.

Your comment that there should be more negative stories is indicative of all of this. Your brain wants to PROVE that it "doesn't work" so you don't have to go there.

That's fine. It's up to you what you want to do and not do.

That's just arrogance on your part.

If if worked then great, this is gonna be hard for someone as ignorant as you to accept but just because it works for you doesn't mean it will for everyone


For me it made me a lot worse , just a lot of emotions and stress, for no good reason, it's honestly no good for some people, to blame than rather than this great therapy of yours only helps your ego and not much else

 

[warren23]

That's just arrogance on your part.

If if worked then great, this is gonna be hard for someone as ignorant as you to accept but just because it works for you doesn't mean it will for everyone


For me it made me a lot worse , just a lot of emotions and stress, for no good reason, it's honestly no good for some people, to blame than rather than this great therapy of yours only helps your ego and not much else

Lee - Bobble is trying to help you, so that response seems unduly harsh.

My question for you - if the TMS techniques have not worked for you, what are you doing instead to get better?

 

[Lee222]

Lee - that response seems unduly harsh. My question for you - if the TMS techniques have not worked for you, what are you doing instead to get better?

I've got an appointment to get some meds from the doctor, I'm guessing it'll be fluxetine, I hate them but I can't function without them, I've done loads of tms type therapies, I guess I'll start looking for another one , what else can you do?