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What else is there - Seriously

Rogue Wave and Miffybunny, your opinions mean a lot to me, so I want to put this out there, just once, and then hopefully I can move on. People are always saying that symptoms don’t matter, that it can all be TMS. I guess I have felt my symptoms are rather unique, so I’d love to have some reassurance (I know this isn’t ideal) that my sensations fit the TMS mold.

I have experienced other TMS symptoms in the past, and even my doctor said I have been in and out of his office with various symptoms that just went away on their own. He feels I have anxiety. I have been anxious for as long as I can remember, but it seems to be taking on a life of its own. What I have now is a prickly hypersensitive sensation on the skin of both legs. The feelings move around and are sometimes imperceptible. I don’t get it at night in bed when sleeping or reading. Clothing irritates me. In addition, I can get surges through my chest that result in the prickly skin feeling, almost like goosebumps. Even if someone touches the back of my neck I can get this. It all scares the hell out of me and I’ve had it a long time. This is actually my third bout. The first two went away quickly. I’ve done the medical circuit, including 3 neurologists, MRI’s, bloodwork and on and on and on. I feel the medical avenue is closed.

It would be a relief to me to believe 100 percent that this is a mind/body situation. I’m tired of feeling afraid of it. We are advised to check in with our emotions, but the emotion I feel most is fear, fear of the sensations. There are other things that come up too, such as anger etc., but it’s mostly fear.

The advice you two have given in this thread has been amazing and I think about it often. Thank you!

First and foremost, we aren't your primary physician, so we can only give advice, and not make an actual diagnosis.

However, it seems like you've done your due diligence around this, so very likely you are having simple symptoms of GAD (generalized anxiety disorder), which is really what TMS is. I posted this before, but please check this list. It is the most comprehensive list of anxiety symptoms I've ever found online : https://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety-symptoms.shtml#anxiety-symptoms-list (Anxiety Symptoms & Signs)

I don't know your history, but I can guarantee you've probably experienced quite a few things on there!

So let's look at this more objectively, to take some of the emotion out of it. You have an obvious TMS/anxiety history, you've had these symptoms before, and they resolved on their own before. That alone is usually enough to warrant a TMS diagnosis. Also, if it were something else, and you haven't been treating it with anything, it most likely would have progressed significantly in some way.

So I'm going to list a few more of Hillbilly's posts that helped me. A lot of what we are saying is repetition, but sometimes it helps to hear it in a different way. I don't want to take credit for his words, so I'm pasting them here:


"The first and final hurdle to getting well is and was and shall forever be when you no longer care how you feel because you have determined that your ailments are benign and can no longer scare you or keep you from accomplishing anything. A disciplined mental approach to thinking about accomplishing your daily tasks despite bodily rumblings is essential while you recover. Self-discipline is the no. 1 goal. You have to take it seriously and do it always. No exceptions. Despair over how you feel even for an instant has chemical byproducts that worsen the way you feel. Imagine what happens if you despair all day, every day for months or years over symptoms that are created out of despair to begin with. Ironic, isn't it?. The worst thing facing you is emotional chemical releases, which are nothing at all, really. They will burn up in time if allowed to without cycling through the additional negative reactions to how you feel.

"In my opinion, it is best for people in recovery to not read forums of any type after they have reached a point of acceptance that they suffer from a benign process of their nervous system that should be ignored as a barrier to living their daily lives as fully as possible. The reason(s) why are numerous, but you certainly are experiencing the most important, which is that you are highly susceptible to negative influences in your thinking at present, and any strongly worded complaint or description of someone else's can and often does become a reality in your own life.

This you can experience for a lifetime if not put out of your mind and the activities of life taken back up. All crutches, including reassurance, must be removed and the person relearn to trust him/herself and become your own source of strength going forward, not just while you recover, but for the rest of your life. "

"The "tools" of recovery, as they are called, are reminders that counter the thinking and behaviors that make us sick and keep us sick. There is a four-part example on the self-help systems website that explains how all this works. Ultimately, it is the act of humility, or acceptance, that saves us. We give up the fight to win outwardly and look inwardly for our strength to carry on. We cannot increase our stature with others, and this is often at the core of the problems we face. We can seek self-acceptance and accomplish what we need to in order to be productive members of a group (work, family, team, community), and that is the great wisdom of this approach. Accept yourself as no better or worse than anyone else, just a dude trying to get by. The stuff that breaks your back is almost certain to be outside your control.

The ironic thing about this is that the wisdom of the ancients has all revolved around self-control and discipline. The world is crazy, society is corrupt, but with training and discovery of our inner strength, we don't have to play along. We don't have to rail and rant, just decide yes or no. That is a powerful tool. The will says yes or no. Choose. Wisely.

Examples of the "tools" are below:

Treat mental health as a business and not as a game.
Humor is our best friend, temper is our worst enemy.
If you can't change a situation, you can change your attitude towards it.
Be self-led, not symptom-led.
Nervous symptoms and sensations are distressing but not dangerous.
Temper is, among other things, blindness to the other side of the story.
Comfort is a want, not a need.
There is no right or wrong in the trivialities of every day life.
Calm begets calm, temper begets temper.
Don't take our own dear selves too seriously.
Feelings should be expressed and temper suppressed.
Helplessness is not hopelessness.
Some people have a passion for self-distrust.
Temper maintains and intensifies symptoms.
Do things in part acts.
Endorse yourself for the effort, not only for the performance.
Have the courage to make a mistake.
Feelings are not facts.
Do the things you fear and hate to do.
Fear is a belief—beliefs can be changed.
Every act of self-control leads to a sense of self-respect.
 
One more, one of my all-time favorites of his:


"There is a chapter in Abraham Low's book that spells out exactly why people don't recover when they are in the midst of suffering from nerves/TMS. It is simple as pie, so logical, and yet so very, very difficult to come to grips with.

Here he was, an erudite physician with a roomful of cured patients telling their stories of suffering away, being unable to leave their homes, go to work, care for their young. Multiple hospitalizations, shock therapy, addictions, abuse, negligence, a morass of human suffering. New patients and those still suffering after years of treatment were brought in for meetings and given the chance to account for themselves in front of the group and get feedback. The ones who got well absorbed the doctor's explanations and got back to life. Their symptoms hung around for a while, but the power of the many exhortations from the doctor and those who had come through, many of whom were thought to have little hope before, buoyed them between meetings.

The cases were summed up so beautifully and eloquently, that it bears repeating here. He says, and I'm paraphrasing, that the patient sees his suffering as special, unique, is jealous of others who've listened and done as they were instructed, doubts that the suffering of others is nearly so acute as theirs, thinks it's very easy for the doctor to give instructions to do things that cause them to have panics and pains because he doesn't suffer, and on and on. That resonated with me because that is EXACTLY what I thought and believed at the time.

And despite whatever cure rates that he could publish or espouse, some people just simply couldn't believe that their nerves could cause such widespread havoc within the body's functions. He would remind them each week that they didn't find him by accident, that they had all seen a litany of physicians, had a battery of tests, and what ultimately convinced them to try was that there wasn't anything left to do but give in and comply with doctor's orders, to join the group instead of standing on the sidelines and criticizing and holding themselves out as special and unique. Humility is a very powerful healer because it calms, orients, and instructs.

This board and the many like it that are dedicated to functional illnesses and conditions, is literally peppered with examples of this. There's a new symptom of the day, a post about anyone who's dealt with it, asking is this TMS, and does anyone have experience dealing with it. Yes, we've all had it or something similar, yes, it disrupted our lives and drove some of us to the brink of sanity and/or suicide, and yes, it is curable in the same manner that others have followed. But do you believe it and will you do what's necessary to overcome it and take responsibility for your own suffering and your own healing? Only you can answer, and it makes little difference what you can come up with in way of a pithy rebuke or well-documented rebuttal.

What do you believe is causing your symptoms? If you think something other than nerves is to blame, then why did you find this board, how did you post this question, and why are you reading this answer? If it is because you are still gathering information, that's fine. But there isn't anything anyone can say to assuage your suffering other than, "Wow! Sorry to hear that. Hope that doesn't require surgery." For those of us who remember full well how badly we suffered, how we thought, whose minds have been changed through reading and sharing and even arguing, we can simply say accept it. It is nothing, and you are healthy as a horse. Be glad and of good cheer. You will thank us later. For now, you have a life to lead. Go lead it courageously."
 
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Rogue Wave, I so appreciate your response. More than ever, while reading this thread you and Miffybunny have made points that I hadn’t really thought of before, and this has helped to change the way I think about these sensations. Talking about how our physiological state can be altered during protracted times of stress, and that our thoughts can become a loop have helped me to see things differently. Also, the idea of being willing to suffer can end suffering is such an eye opener - some great philosophical stuff there.

I will reread Hillbilly’s and Ace1’s posts and then really try to let it all go. As my husband says in a joking way, I’m the healthiest sick person he’s ever seen. My doctor said he agreed.

Thank you so much for your help. I truly appreciate it.
 
Hi @eskimoeskimoI know you listed what you tried, but can you please give a history of your pain? I'm just curious about a few details before I provide any advice.

Hi RogueWave. Sorry for taking so long to respond. I try not visit this or any other forum anymore - for reasons that you go on to mention in this thread - but I never make any progress with the 'live your life'/stop-looking-for-answers-and-reassurance strategy and out of desperation eventually check in again. So for better of worse, I'm here now.

Very briefly: I've had depression and anxiety (possibly OCD, certainly OCD spectrum) since approximately age 17. Pain started age 19. I'm 31 now. I've had many physical symptoms. Primary was upper back pain for ~5 years, then neck pain for ~7 (far and away my #1 fixation). Pain is never worse than 5/10 pain, but I find it extremely distressing at all times, completely regardless of level. Nothing much of note has been found on MRIs. Some degeneration maybe. No physical interventions - and I've done it all - have made the slightest difference beyond a few minutes. I've been working at this from a strictly TMS perspective for 8 years or more. I have seen many therapists, OCD specialists, TMS therapists, etc etc. I've worked with 3 different psychologists at the Pain Psychology Center, 2 in person. I've spoken lots with Alan Gordon and Howard Schubiner via email and phone. I have driven many TMS'ers mad with my questions and pleas for help (at least two of whom are present on this thread). I have read and reread all of Sarno, Claire Weekes, Abraham Low. I've read and reread all of Hillbilly's posts and Dorado's and the others who emphasize the kind of behavioral approach you're advocating (if I understand you correctly). I've also done thousands of hours of vipassana/mindfulness meditation which is based on a similar perspective on suffering, resistance, etc. I have never, and I mean never, made any meaningful progress. If you want, I could tell you more about the presentation of symptoms, behavioral correlations. I'll leave it there for now because I don't want this to turn into a novel.

Hi @eskimoeskimo Also, besides your pain history, could you please tell me exactly what TMS is, in YOUR words.

I don't know at this stage. I can tell you I no longer buy, and was never that impressed with, the straight ahead Sarno take on repressed emotions, distraction mechanism, etc. I guess at this stage I'm more inclined to think of it in terms of a stress response, somaticized anxiety disorder, learned neural pathways. That sort of thing à la Schubiner. I do believe that there are a lot of contradictory elements in the myriad descriptions of TMS. I'm not comfortable viewing these seeming contradictions as just part and parcel of an 'evolving' understanding of TMS, or as different ways of saying the same thing, or as a choose-your-own-adventure or any of the other ways people here often try to explain away the contradictions. I think chronic pain is complicated and there is a lot we simply do not know, and I'm far from convinced that everyone or even most people can get better. I simply don't know. To be clear, these doubts have cropped up only after years of striving. If you'd asked me 7 years ago I'd have given you the straightforward definition and said it makes damned good sense. Nowadays ... beats me.
 
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Anxiety is simply, quite literally, a body/mind stuck in a survival mode.

If you can't understand how you got there, a good therapist can help. But in my professional opinion, most of Western society is living in some level of chronic fight or flight, which is why chronic pain is so common now. Our muscle tone gets over-stimulated and the thickest, most partially contracted muscles in the body, the postural muscles, are prime targets. If the tension is high enough in the neck, it can also cause headaches of various types.

Life moves quicker now, and we are bombarded with bad news and all types of stress daily, and we stay stuck. Especially if we endured stress in childhood, the body gets very good at maintaining survival mode. Practice makes perfect, right? It's like a car that is stuck in a low gear trying to do 80 on the highway, and yet we can't often act on the stress ("I want to yell at my boss but I can't!), so it's like we are stepping on the gas and the brake at the same time.

I am repeating these things for people that haven't heard it this way before, and to help the rest with a stronger understanding and acceptance through repetition.

What makes this even more difficult is that newer science is showing we can actually become somewhat addicted to stress hormones, so our brain/body will unconsciously try and drive back into survival mode if that's what it's used to, even if it's uncomfortable, painful, or whatever. After all, the survival state is created by chronic release of stress hormones, and just like any substance introduced into the body repeatedly over time, the physiology will eventually change to accommodate that substance. So trying to change one's physiology away from a TMS (or survival state), can be a bit like trying to break an addiction to any substance, which is one of the reasons people who have 'cured' themselves from TMS can have relapses. Biochemically it's not very different than an alcoholic relapsing. Reading and studying TMS is like going to rehab, and people are often good for awhile, and some for life. But sooner or sometimes much later, boom, the 'addiction' reasserts itself.

Leaving aside chronic pain for a moment, I continue to be open to this explanation of anxiety disorder. But I can also say that I've been trying to address anxiety from this perspective for even longer than I've been trying to address chronic pain. I'm currently back in my parents' home, in my childhood bedroom, and found an old dogeared copy of Hope and Help for Your Nerves by Claire Weekes. I first read that over a decade ago. I have read Abraham Low, the DARE books, At Last a Life, and have done a 3 month ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) course. I get the theory, but I have never had any success with it. Sometimes I think I'm just torturing myself, or at least kidding myself, to keep trying again and again to accept the discomfort and push forward with a meaningful life until the brain gets the message. The brain is not getting the message.
 
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I hope the previous post makes sense! If not, please ask questions so I can clarify.

Also, before I write anything else, I'm still assuming those of you reading this have been thoroughly checked out by a medical professional, and have ruled out other causes of pain.

So now I hope it's clear that TMS is an off-shoot of a body in constant, subacute survival mode, which is really just a state of chronic anxiety. I'll used the terms interchangeably. I personally don't believe the brain is doing anything to punish us, distract us, or show us anything. It's just stuck in fight or flight as a result of our brains and environment evolving over time, resulting in an overstimulated sympathetic nervous system.

The body is stuck in a sympathetic-dominant state, and many types of dysfunction stem from that, TMS being just one. Pain is due to overstimulated muscle tone, and oxygen-deprivation is the result.

This is also why most TMS sufferers usually have other chronic problems besides just pain. As I mentioned before, blood and resources are diverted away from digestion and reproductive areas, so problems in those areas are common for TMS sufferers. A body in survival mode can often have sleep problems as well, because it can't go into deeper rest states. The brain obviously wouldn't want you to fall asleep if your life were being threatened! There are for more potential problems that can occur, but that goes beyond this post.

So now it should be more clear why TMS occurs. And when we add the idea of stress hormones being potentially addictive, the changes in our thinking when in survival, and our modern brains' ability to cause physical changes by thought alone, is it any wonder chronic pain is such a massive issue now?

As a quick aside, Dr. Sarno was also correct as to why modern medicine is so bad at treating it: because of imaging technology, docs almost invariably blame the problem on structural issues, because that's what they can see. Very, very unfortunate, but it is extremely difficult to talk patients out of a structural diagnosis once they've seen their scans and had a doc tell them that's why they are in pain!

The fundamental way to cure TMS is to stop the chronic survival mode. As @miffybunny said, it's actually quite simple, in theory. Some people can just accept that and move right through it (those are the 'book cure' people), but for someone like @BloodMoon, who seems to be quite intellectual and headstrong, it can be harder, because they will tend to analyze ever little aspect (which can easily cause more stress). And/or if you've dealt with stress from a young age, the survival mode will be more hardwired in, and will require more effort to break.

But this is why Miffy's advice of 'just go live your life' is so simple, yet profound. Acceptance of suffering will end it eventually, because that alone will break the loop. When you stop reacting to the pain with despair, stress, anger, etc, you will shut off the mechanism that is keeping it going.

YOUR BODY WANTS TO HEAL. Period. And it has fantastic mechanism to do so, but we are inadvertently getting in the way of that recovery.

Let's frame this another way, to anyone reading this who is still suffering: If you really truly accept and understand TMS for what it is (painful but quite harmless) why are you still here??

I realize you still have pain, but you are here because you keep focusing on it, ruminating about it, hoping, searching......remember what I wrote in the last post about the brain in survival mode constantly focusing on the threat, looking for a way out, and trying to predict the worst-case scenario? Yup, you're doing it right now. And you keep doing it, probably throughout the day, more than you realize.

You really have to live, think, and feel in a way as if it's a complete non-issue, and just keep doing that for as long as it takes. I asked the question before as to why some people can be cured by reading, and my opinion is that it's because they lose their fear of TMS by understanding it for what it is. It's not 'calling the brain's bluff/distraction' as Dr. Sarno thought, but rather learning it was harmless/curable caused hope to suddenly appear, and that completely breaks the stress cycle.

Pain, stress, depression, anxiety and the hormones and neurotransmitters that accompany them cannot co-exist in a body with the same substances that produce gratitude, joy, relief, etc.

The ones you feed are the ones that will win.

And with the 'win' comes the state of the body. Stressed or not, pain-free or not..and so forth.

HOW you feed the good ones is up to you. For myself, success stories, reading many of the things I've listed before, and meditation in which I just imagined how it would feel to by symptom-free were key. But other people do it differently. Ultimately you are trading one state of being for another by putting as little attention of the old one, and all the attention on the one you want to be in. There are many techniques for this, but the simplest on is stop giving a shit. Really. It's very difficult to do sometimes, but water will penetrate rock sooner or later. Just be consistent.

Forget about the pain, and observe how often you are focused on any stressor throughout the day. Again, the brain doesn't differentiate between stressors, so if they are the constant focus, how can you expect a different result in the body.

The average adult has 60k-70k thoughts a day, and 80-90% of them are the same as the day before. The same thoughts produce the same words, actions, and chemical releases in the body. We get stuck on the hamster wheel, and it becomes groundhog day, every day, and that includes physical symptoms.

The problem is we wait to feel better to change how we think, feel, and act. But we have that backwards. If we acquire true knowledge of what TMS is, really lose our fear/concern about it, live, think, and speak differently, and as a result shift our body chemistry permanently, the pain will disappear.

I'm not 100% convinced that chronic pain is just another anxiety symptom. Maybe, maybe not. Those older vintage books you cite don't talk about pain as a symptom in the same way. You're comfortable plugging chronic pain in there as synonymous with any other anxiety symptom, but I'm not ready - or more accurately, no longer ready - to make that leap. Maybe some pain is due to stress and fixation. Maybe some pain is structural. Maybe some pain which is structural is magnified by stress and fixation. Who says the body wants to heal? We're evolved to survive to reproductive age and reproduce, not necessarily to live a pain-free life. And there are plenty of diseases and syndromes which interfere with the body's 'desire' to heal. That's what disease is. With cancer, for example, we can't just say 'the body wants to heal' so just get out of the way to let the body do its thing. So the question is still simply: 'is chronic pain in the remediable stress-dysfunction category or the chronic untreatable disease/syndrome category?'

As far as the addiction aspect, interesting food for thought. But I think lots of questions remain to be answered. Just because stress instigates the release of certain hormones or affects the balance of neurotransmitters does not necessarily mean that that resultant brain chemistry is addictive. Yes there are dopamine reward pathways involved in addiction, but that doesn't mean that every hormone or neurotransmitter is 'addictive.' Stress may be correlated with higher cortisol levels and lower serotonin levels, but that does not necessarily mean that the brain is 'addicted' to high cortisol levels and low serotonin levels. To emphasize, I'm not ruling an addiction aspect out at all ... just mulling over.

Your last statement is I think a CBT perspective. Having been in therapy for 12 years, I've done my fair share of CBT exercises. Still waiting for the results.
 
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You really have to live, think, and feel in a way as if it's a complete non-issue, and just keep doing that for as long as it takes.

I find this intuitively appealing. Which is why I've been drawn to Hillbilly, Dorado, Weekes, and Schubiner over Sarno, Ozanich, Sachs ...

But I have found this intuitively appealing for 8 years. I have tried everything under the sun to try to cultivate this attitude towards my pain and other symptoms. And before anyone says it, yes yes yes this includes trying to not try so hard and trying to not try to try to not try so hard and trying to not try and ...

Accept suffering and the suffering ceases .... okay .... how? I'm not the Buddha here
 
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@RogueWave

I see many, many people on this forum who seem to have, and say they have, lost the fear of the pain and moved on with life, but without then experiencing alleviation or even diminishment of their symptoms. There are quite a few posts to that effect here in just the last few days alone.

Come to think of it, even "pain management" entails quite a bit of the CBT and ACT stuff. But they don't expect that that will lead to resolution of symptoms. Rather they are aiming for improved functioning.

Maybe this behavioral approach works for some people and not others, or some types of chronic pain and not others. Even if we accept that chronic pain is not caused by the sorts of structural abnormalities that doctors usually point to doesn't necessarily mean that everybody can get better or that everyone can get better via this approach. Maybe there are 10,000 different types of chronic pain disorder. Who knows
 
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Slight aside here, but since I'm venting my spleen I also want to say ...

Yes I 'saw myself on every page' of Sarno, Low, Weekes. But isn't that the way self-help books always are? It's like astrological readings. It always sounds so personal, so true, so profound, so applicable. But that's just how we're wired. And when we're in pain and desperate all the more so.
 
I sometimes wonder if discovering the TMS world hasn't made my life worse, because this is the only group of people who tell me that my pain can go away. I wonder if I would have suffered less had I just accepted the conventional wisdom that chronic pain rarely (read 'never') resolves. Then again, if what I've been trying to do for 8 years is accept the pain, maybe it's not so different. Lord I'm sick of these conundrums.
 
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I can definitively say that in no other area of my life would I have taken seriously a freudian alternative medicine self-help book just because it has 5,000 positive reviews on Amazon. So does the sunscreen I just bought and it turns out it sucks. Am I only here because I'm desperate and can't stomach the prognosis of permanent pain?
 
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@RogueWave

I see many, many people on this forum who seem to have, and say they have, lost the fear of the pain and moved on with life, but without then experiencing alleviation or even diminishment of their symptoms. There are quite a few posts to that effect here in just the last few days alone.

Come to think of it, even "pain management" entails quite a bit of the CBT and ACT stuff. But they don't expect that that will lead to resolution of symptoms. Rather they are aiming for improved functioning.

Maybe this behavioral approach works for some people and not others, or some types of chronic pain and not others. Even if we accept that chronic pain is not caused by the sorts of structural abnormalities that doctors usually point to doesn't necessarily mean that everybody can get better or that everyone can get better via this approach. Maybe there are 10,000 different types of chronic pain disorder. Who knows

I take issue with 2 things you have written. I'll address this one first: The first sentence of this post is ignoring the millions of people who HAVE eliminated their symptoms. The people who just "get on with life" and deal with the symptoms never overcame the root cause. If they did they did, the symptoms would cease to have a purpose. It's crucial I challenge these assertions because there are thousands of people who read here and many are actively struggling so this needs to be clarified in no uncertain terms. You are omitting truth here and choosing to focus on the negative.

Slight aside here, but since I'm venting my spleen I also want to say ...

Yes I 'saw myself on every page' of Sarno, Low, Weekes. But isn't that the way self-help books always are? It's like astrological readings. It always sounds so personal, so true, so profound, so applicable. But that's just how we're wired. And when we're in pain and desperate all the more so.

To reduce the entire discipline and science of psychology to the realm of fortunetelling is a defense mechanism. Dr. Sarno and other experts in the mind body field have described a specific personality type: perfectionism, goodism, self sacrificing, people pleasing, ....basically people who put a lot of pressure on themselves. I personally know many people who do NOT fit this category. Your comparison to astrology is not apt. Astrology is a hodge podge of traits under 12 signs. I can't believe I'm even typing this tbh.

If you don't believe that you can get better or some never get better @eskimoeskimo , that is your opinion and belief. If you consider psychology to be nothing more than divination and fantasy, this is clearly not the place for you. There is a whole medical world out there you can pursue, OR you can just accept that this is your lot in life as you seem to indicate, but it's a tremendous disservice to others reading here.
 
I think TMS work is experiential, not intellectual, this is why books and seminars are informative but applying what you learn is more difficult because you can't force it, you feel happier, lighter, and more relaxed when you don't fixate intellectually. I still get bothersome symptoms due to doubt, fear, inactivity etc.
 
Hey Eskimo ..... no sorry stuff here. Let it rip mate. I reckon you might be talking for and to a good few members. So much from all directions in this thread. marls
 
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