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What else is there - Seriously

Hey Kozas, hows the Pathway app working out for you. Any recommendations. Thanks marls

I've said that I will give you update and here it is
- it's sadly quite expensive for me, as USD dollar is not the currency in my country. It's more expensive than curable actually.
- to be honest most knowledge there is something I knew before. Nothing new really.
I would advise to invest maybe in some books about TMS or similiar topics. At least for me it's a much cheaper solution. I'm also trying this approach:
I have pain 24/7 but I'm better at not thinking about it. When I started to think something like 'oh my, life was so good before pain' or 'I will never be pain free again' or 'this pain is so horrible' I just visualise that pain is shrinking in my brain for a few moments and this gives me relief to start doing something different. When the pain thought is 'attacking' me again then I visualise again. Just because I can't stop the pain doesn't mean I can't stop pain thoughts. It's hard as hell, but it builds up mental resilience
 
Thanks for that update Kozas. Yes I too am having some success with visualising the “pain shrinking in the brain”. The Michael Moskowitz website has very good info on it and BloodMoon posted the great idea of reading the first chapter (free) of Norman Doidge’s book which explained the process too. Thanks, marls
 
There was another thread about this (can't remember which one) but it's not about the methods or techniques or tools, or which books you read or "researching". That is just focusing on the wrong thing. Stop trying different techniques and start living your life. This whole process is about living your life on your terms and overcoming false beliefs. It's not about methodology or approaches. This is one of the ways that people get in their own way unfortunately. It's not that the "technique" "doesn't "work" for some people". It has literally nothing to do with that. I can't emphasize this enough. Anyone can get better...ANYONE. Techniques are irrelevant at the end of the day. What IS relevant is losing the fear of the symptoms and living your life authentically so the tms no longer serves a purpose. I wish I could shout this from the rooftops because it's where a lot of people get derailed.

If you tried everything else - try @miffybunny 's recommendation.

I can only add this to her points: you need to find your own inner strength and start believing in yourself, your own ability to squeeze the fear out of your system. Unless you are looking up to the method, or doctor, or clinic, or anything external to you to save you, you will not succeed.

Once you start seeing yourself as a warrior who leads the fight, who recruits professionals, friends, strangers to help, but remains in charge of your own destiny, your pain will start going away. When it leaves you for just 3 minutes - give yourself full credit, take it as a great success, don't be disappointed that it is only 3 minutes. Next time it will be 5 minutes, then an hour, then entire full day. Don't despair when pain returns. As long as you know that you were able to beat it for just one day, another pain-free day will come - you will eventually win the fight.

As I went through my journey, my resolve only got stronger, to prove wrong the doctors who misdiagnosed me and who told me that my pain was forever. I think that it was my stubbornness that saved me. I just wanted to prove them all wrong. And I did.

Another, very important one: you need to have something to live for, besides your pain. Live for your family, be example for others, be something. That takes the power from pain and gives it back to you.

I wish you all give it another try. The winners are the ones who try again, after yet another failure.
 
Thanks for that update Kozas. Yes I too am having some success with visualising the “pain shrinking in the brain”. The Michael Moskowitz website has very good info on it and BloodMoon posted the great idea of reading the first chapter (free) of Norman Doidge’s book which explained the process too. Thanks, marls
Hi Marls. Dorado also found and recently posted on another thread this article re Michael Moskowitz https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2019/08/03/rewiring-the-brain-to-get-out-of-pain-the-moskowitz-approach/ (Rewiring the Brain to Get Out of Pain: the Moskowitz Approach - Health Rising) :)
 
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Thanks for that update Kozas. Yes I too am having some success with visualising the “pain shrinking in the brain”. The Michael Moskowitz website has very good info on it and BloodMoon posted the great idea of reading the first chapter (free) of Norman Doidge’s book which explained the process too. Thanks, marls

I've read first chapter of that book and one thing was surprising or me: "Relentlessness" - idea that mere disctraction(with work for example) is not enough and that you should visualize everytime you feel pain.
Well, what about people who feel pain 24/7... I can't visualize 24/7, it wouldn't be smart to visualize while driving car :D Or working, or watching movie, reading book... I'm visualizing few times a day but that book states that it's not enough, that 'casual disctraction'(but I have to work! Or have some life other than dealing with pain) is not enough - 'every time pain is detected push back with full focus' like I said I have 24/7 pain so that would essentialy means abandoning my life... something I wonder is 'medicine' better than 'illness'. Maybe I should let TMS roam free? But I did that for years and that only brought me despair that I will be always in pain. What works best for me(not for pain - for me) is living my life, and doing some TMS works in hope that someday it's gonna pays off. It's like with gym - I'm not strong but I work out because I'm hoping that with time I'm gonna be stronger
 
Well, what about people who feel pain 24/7... I can't visualize 24/7
I too have pain 24/7 and what I'm going to do is perform the visualizations every time the pain spikes significantly and/or shifts to another part of my body (if I'm not having to do something else at that particular time) plus a further 7 times a day. In the article that I posted above, Moskowitz advised his patient, Jan, to do the visualizations 7 times a day (but she was in a position that she could visualize most of the day, so she did that and became pain free relatively quickly). I therefore infer that Moskowitz (at least at that time; I don't know if he's changed his opinion since) believed that visualizing just 7 times a day would/might work. As you will have gathered, the idea is to bring back into proper use the areas of the brain that normally mainly do other things, e.g. are involved in processing visual stuff, that have been hi-jacked to mainly deal with pain instead. On his website, Moskowitz says that some people don't respond to solely doing the visualizations and with those people he suggests other ways to assist in altering/rewiring the brain, e.g. using the sense of smell and touch, which are processed by other areas of the brain http://www.neuroplastix.com/styled-2/page71/soothing.html (Section 5: Soothing | Neuroplastix). (For me, I feel it's got to be worth a try in combination with other things I'm doing, e.g. affirmations.)
 
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I too have pain 24/7 and what I'm going to do is perform the visualizations every time the pain spikes significantly and/or shifts to another part of my body (if I'm not having to do something else at that particular time) plus a further 7 times a day. In the article that I posted above, Moskowitz advised his patient, Jan, to do the visualizations 7 times a day (but she was in a position that she could visualize most of the day, so she did that and became pain free relatively quickly). I therefore infer that Moskowitz (at least at that time; I don't know if he's changed his opinion since) believed that visualizing just 7 times a day would/might work. As you will have gathered, the idea is to bring back into proper use the areas of the brain that normally mainly do other things, e.g. are involved in processing visual stuff, that have been hi-jacked to mainly deal with pain instead. On his website, Moskowitz says that some people don't respond to solely doing the visualizations and with those people he suggests other ways to assist in altering/rewiring the brain, e.g. using the sense of smell and touch, which are processed by other areas of the brain http://www.neuroplastix.com/styled-2/page71/soothing.html (Section 5: Soothing | Neuroplastix). (For me, I feel it's got to be worth a try in combination with other things I'm doing, e.g. affirmations.)

It's worth a good try then I quess!
When it comes to smell I had an idea, I wonder if for example smell of fresh coffee(so something almost everybody likes, including me) WHILE visualizing reducing pain areas in brain could help. It's worth a try like I said... and well good coffee is never harmful ;)
 
Hey Kozas, I’m a 24/7er as well and I’m doing the brain map shrink when i just feel like it. Sometimes extended, sometimes at the traffic lights, drifting of to sleep or in the shower. I don’t know how to describe it really, sorry, but I’m not doing it in a fight TMS way, just that I feel it’s right for me to sooth myself. I’m very into a self-sooth foundation which is decorated with visualisation, breathing, smelling etc. BloodMoon reminded me about affirmations and I’ve loved doing them today. (Oddly, I did have a good day today Hmmm). And now you remind me about how delicious is the smell of coffee. We are all working on our own jigsaw but I love it when someone leans over my shoulder to point out a piece I’ve missed. cheers marls
 
Hey Kozas, I’m a 24/7er as well and I’m doing the brain map shrink when i just feel like it. Sometimes extended, sometimes at the traffic lights, drifting of to sleep or in the shower. I don’t know how to describe it really, sorry, but I’m not doing it in a fight TMS way, just that I feel it’s right for me to sooth myself. I’m very into a self-sooth foundation which is decorated with visualisation, breathing, smelling etc. BloodMoon reminded me about affirmations and I’ve loved doing them today. (Oddly, I did have a good day today Hmmm). And now you remind me about how delicious is the smell of coffee. We are all working on our own jigsaw but I love it when someone leans over my shoulder to point out a piece I’ve missed. cheers marls

Thanks for input. I wanted to ask BloodMoon how long should take one session of visualisation but I see I'm doing it like you - when I think too much about pain(because I have 24/7 like I said I can't do it all the time) I'm doing visualisation even for 10-30 seconds. I close my eyes and images in my mind are so fast - I imagine pain areas and then I'm shrinking them(sometimes I'm using ice or fire extinguisher to change that area from red and hot to calm and safe) and I just open my eyes and get on with dealing with life. It's usually even kinda reducing my physical pain for a while, but what's more important it takes my thought from pain('oh I will never be pain free, life was so good before pain, I'm different and my pain is uncurable') to something like 'ok I dealt with it how I could, now I can think about something different'
 
Yes, yes, yes Kozas, I reckon you are right. Pain 24/7 is one thing but thinking about it negatively 24/7 was even more distressing. I think Claire Weekes used the word “glimpse” and Ive started feeling glimpses of ordinary-brain. You know, thinking about yummy coffee instead of a blasted pain negative. And just quietly affirming positives is negating the pain loop. We’re on it! marls
 
When it comes to smell I had an idea, I wonder if for example smell of fresh coffee(so something almost everybody likes, including me) WHILE visualizing reducing pain areas in brain could help. It's worth a try like I said... and well good coffee is never harmful ;)
On Morowitz's website it recommends peppermint, lemon and lavender - see the penultimate information box on this webpage for more information http://www.neuroplastix.com/styled-2/page71/soothing.html (Section 5: Soothing | Neuroplastix) (I too love the smell of coffee though and will think about and actually physically smell that too!:))

I wanted to ask BloodMoon how long should take one session of visualisation but I see I'm doing it like you - when I think too much about pain(because I have 24/7 like I said I can't do it all the time) I'm doing visualisation even for 10-30 seconds. I close my eyes and images in my mind are so fast - I imagine pain areas and then I'm shrinking them(sometimes I'm using ice or fire extinguisher to change that area from red and hot to calm and safe) and I just open my eyes and get on with dealing with life. It's usually even kinda reducing my physical pain for a while, but what's more important it takes my thought from pain('oh I will never be pain free, life was so good before pain, I'm different and my pain is uncurable') to something like 'ok I dealt with it how I could, now I can think about something different'
I'm no expert on this, but what you're doing sounds good to me. I think we just need to do what we can, when we can - to the extent that we can manage; if we give ourselves too big of a commitment/target it can cause us pressure/stress and make us want to just give up .
 
On Morowitz's website it recommends peppermint, lemon and lavender - see the penultimate information box on this webpage for more information http://www.neuroplastix.com/styled-2/page71/soothing.html (Section 5: Soothing | Neuroplastix) (I too love the smell of coffee though and will think about and actually physically smell that too!:))


I'm no expert on this, but what you're doing sounds good to me. I think we just need to do what we can, when we can - to the extent that we can manage; if we give ourselves too big of a commitment/target it can cause us pressure/stress and make us want to just give up .

Thanks BloodMoon, many good advices. I think I'm gonna leave from this forum for a 3 months and then report back in if it helped me. Sometimes I feel that when you gather information you should stop at certain moment and just turn that information into action. Gathering information and not doing anything is what maybe was holding me up.
 
Yea if "living life" was a cure for chronic pain, I don't think there would be so many people out there suffering with it. I know lots of people who aren't obsessed with their pain, still continue to live normally and productively, but still have 24/7 pain. Of course it helps to try to focus on other things, but everyone knows that; that's not a 'cure' for chronic pain. That's just a bog-standard behavioral approach, or "acceptance and commitment" approach and it hasn't helped me.
Or if not pain, 24/7 anxiety, tension, and weird sensations
 
Yeah I know it doesn't cure pain, but it's still something that helped me live better. Don't get me wrong, I have the same questions as you have, I would be extremely happy to cure my pain or even at least change severity of it. I have 24/7 pain in 4-6 scale(I would say something like 5.5 usually) so while it's very uncomfortable I can still live more or less normal. I would love to have pain more in 2-4 scale, that would be a huge improvement. Recently I'm usuing pathways app on my phone, I used curable for half a year without any change though...

Sometimes it helps, because your brain gets it in that moment. Other times it misses the connection and the fear is greater.
 
My man @eskimoeskimo I'm with you in this suffering but someone like @miffybunny is trying to help. Yes help can sometimes feel a certain way when we are suffering but if we get out if this maze im sure it'll make sense in hindsight.

Here is something I did that convinced me it's my brain: I took a big ole dose of a benzodiazapin medication. Felt almost 100 percent fine. If that is to make you less anxious and it knocked out the pain... Well now I'm getting somewhere? Unfortunately I don't take these medications as the cure is worse that the disease if you get hooked.

But do some outlandish shit and see if you get a window.

Go skydiving, go to a gun show, drive a gokart, walk down the wrong street in Philly at night.... If it's tms I think you'll see a very short change (if you can do the experiment without influencing the results)

Or do the most insane shit you can think of to not be you for a moment.. I dunno, dress up like Batman and hand out pizza to strangers on the street if they can answer your trivia questions. Just be a moron and menace and see if anything changes by sprinting so far outside your normal patterns

If that works then...I dunno , buy a dog.

Maybe not the wrong street at night but something fun
 
I struggle with this too. At the end of the day, if I’m really honest with myself, I’m only practicing “outcome independence” because in the grand scheme of things I want my pain to stop. No other reason. I don’t know how to get out of that trap because obviously my brain knows at all times what I really want. It doesn’t matter how many times I say to myself “I don’t care, the important thing is that I do it anyway, or that I put together a life worth living regardless of pain. Stay or go, pain, I don’t care” .... all day long, but I’m nowhere close to meaning that. More than anything else in the world, I want this f*****g sensation to STOP.

Same outcome independence about pain always pushes my buttons and makes me pissed off it's the one thing I can't do without feeling upset.
 
It's one of the very first lectures that you come to in the app. I have to read the transcript because I can't stand the voice of the woman who reads the lectures. I understand she's one of the founders/creators of the app. She does that thing that some women speakers do called "vocal fry," where the speaker pitches her voice low at the end of sentences and it changes to a growl. Hearing her voice makes me want to hurl my phone across the room. But at the bottom of the screen is an option to read the transcript. Another good Curable lecture is the one called "Pain Catastrophizing."

I think the only way to truly test Outcome Independence is to flat, f****ng give up. Not as a way of achieving results through the back door, as it were, but just throwing up your hands in weary surrender to the circumstances. And I'm not sure "acceptance" (whatever that is) has to be part of it. I think it's more of a draining of expectations. You go to the cupboard of strategies, techniques, modalities and when you open it a moth flies out and it's totally bare. Kind of like when people try a bunch of dating apps and go on a bunch of dates over a period of years and finally conclude there is just no one out there. And the next day they meet The One. As was said above, there is a lot of mystery about how all of this (and indeed, Life Itself) works. Maybe the reason giving up can cause such a shift (if it really IS authentic giving up) is that it clears the decks. Sweeps away all plans, expectations, agendas, and even hope. If hope, as Emily Dickinson says, is "the thing with feathers," then giving up is taking a cast iron frying pan and smashing that annoying, fluffy trickster who has led us on a path to nowhere for years.

I'm up early on a Saturday morning because I was awakened (and have been for many months) by excruciating pain in my legs. Yesterday it had me up at 4. This morning at 5--but only in the right leg today. A couple of years ago it was in my right shoulder and eventually that went away, but my legs started hurting. I won't hijack, but just wanted to say that I'm in this club, too, and I'm constantly searching for answers.

Early morning thoughts... no coffee yet... :)

For leg stuff supported walking or walking with a companion really helps. When it hurts your legs are crying for circulation it's really scary but at least try to change positions more.
 
I like a lot of your replies, so thank you. But i feel like i do have a lot to lose by going by the TMS approach. Everytime i start to live my life again normally and resume activity behind pc/phone etc it gets worse and after some months il stop again. After that it never gets back to the point before and all got worse. So it didnt stay the same at all. Thats why im scared to keep trying.

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

Walking is the best. You can walk for fun and for fitness.
 
I like a lot of your replies, so thank you. But i feel like i do have a lot to lose by going by the TMS approach. Everytime i start to live my life again normally and resume activity behind pc/phone etc it gets worse and after some months il stop again. After that it never gets back to the point before and all got worse. So it didnt stay the same at all. Thats why im scared to keep trying.

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

Walking is the best.
If you tried everything else - try @miffybunny 's recommendation.

I can only add this to her points: you need to find your own inner strength and start believing in yourself, your own ability to squeeze the fear out of your system. Unless you are looking up to the method, or doctor, or clinic, or anything external to you to save you, you will not succeed.

Once you start seeing yourself as a warrior who leads the fight, who recruits professionals, friends, strangers to help, but remains in charge of your own destiny, your pain will start going away. When it leaves you for just 3 minutes - give yourself full credit, take it as a great success, don't be disappointed that it is only 3 minutes. Next time it will be 5 minutes, then an hour, then entire full day. Don't despair when pain returns. As long as you know that you were able to beat it for just one day, another pain-free day will come - you will eventually win the fight.

As I went through my journey, my resolve only got stronger, to prove wrong the doctors who misdiagnosed me and who told me that my pain was forever. I think that it was my stubbornness that saved me. I just wanted to prove them all wrong. And I did.

Another, very important one: you need to have something to live for, besides your pain. Live for your family, be example for others, be something. That takes the power from pain and gives it back to you.

I wish you all give it another try. The winners are the ones who try again, after yet another failure.

All my doctors are luckily understand it's mind-body but it's me who's the stubborn TMSer. *sigh*
 
I like a lot of your replies, so thank you. But i feel like i do have a lot to lose by going by the TMS approach. Everytime i start to live my life again normally and resume activity behind pc/phone etc it gets worse and after some months il stop again. After that it never gets back to the point before and all got worse. So it didnt stay the same at all. Thats why im scared to keep trying.

And whenever i resume pc work etc i cant jog and sport anymore etc because of the dizzyness/pain/ exhaustion and heart troubles. I finally am at a point now where i can jog a little and feel a bit better. But still feel like shit, just better than when i resumed activity the last time.

Walking is the best.
 
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