What else is there - Seriously

[eskimoeskimo]

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what to try if this stuff doesn't work? I'm not looking for encouragement to keep going with TMS. I've been trying this for years. I've been posting desperate pleas for help on this form for years. I've done it all ad nauseam - Outcome independence, attitude of indifference, somatic tracking, journaling, endless therapy, processing my emotions, turning to the psychological, giving up all physical interventions, resuming activity, vigorous exercise, inpatient treatment for OCD and hypochondria, self soothing, mindfulness meditation, CBT, EFT, ACT, focusing on "life," positive self talk, affirmations, deep breathing, read every TMS book multiple times, stopped 'trying,' etc etc etc etc. I can't do it anymore. I've never had a single iota of improvement. Not a thing in 8 years. Does anybody have any suggestions for something else to try? Anything?

 

[Marls]

You know Eskimo, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a good few TMSers who would be interested in an answer to this one. Me included. My TMS is like a slippery eel, every time I’ve got it, whoops, it slips away.
Have you thought of handballing this to Alan for his podcasts?

 

[Kozas]

Yeah I would be interested for an answer from proffessionalist too. I'm into TMS for last 2-3 years and it did nothing to my physical symptoms. Although I have to say that my mental health improved, mainly due to mindfullness meditation. And I have to admit that I struggle with not-thinking-about-my-pain-all-the-time stuff. I mean I'm in pain 24/h and many advices or articles are about 'don't fear about movement', 'don't fear when the pain comes', well I have pain in my abdomen and jaw/teeth so I don't fear about movement, and the only time I'm free of pain is when I sleep. Every morning I'm like 'oh no, this shit again' xD I'm able to think clearer and more positive through the day but only because of sheer willpower. Before pain I was able to be happy just... you know by living. My latest 'trick in the book' in trying to defeat TMS is to doing stuff, so I will not think about pain... I mean it helps a little, yesterday I baked my very first cookies(my mom never teached my anything about cooking and baking) and it was a lot of fun and I didn't think about pain that much. So I quess for my 'living my life' while not a solution is the best approach so far...

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Yea if "living life" was a cure for chronic pain, I don't think there would be so many people out there suffering with it. I know lots of people who aren't obsessed with their pain, still continue to live normally and productively, but still have 24/7 pain. Of course it helps to try to focus on other things, but everyone knows that; that's not a 'cure' for chronic pain. That's just a bog-standard behavioral approach, or "acceptance and commitment" approach and it hasn't helped me.

 

[Kozas]

Yea if "living life" was a cure for chronic pain, I don't think there would be so many people out there suffering with it. I know lots of people who aren't obsessed with their pain, still continue to live normally and productively, but still have 24/7 pain. Of course it helps to try to focus on other things, but everyone knows that; that's not a 'cure' for chronic pain. That's just a bog-standard behavioral approach, or "acceptance and commitment" approach and it hasn't helped me.

Yeah I know it doesn't cure pain, but it's still something that helped me live better. Don't get me wrong, I have the same questions as you have, I would be extremely happy to cure my pain or even at least change severity of it. I have 24/7 pain in 4-6 scale(I would say something like 5.5 usually) so while it's very uncomfortable I can still live more or less normal. I would love to have pain more in 2-4 scale, that would be a huge improvement. Recently I'm usuing pathways app on my phone, I used curable for half a year without any change though...

 

[Marls]

Hey Kozas, hows the Pathway app working out for you. Any recommendations. Thanks marls

 

[Kozas]

Hey Kozas, hows the Pathway app working out for you. Any recommendations. Thanks marls

Just started it. I can inform you in month or two

 

[Marls]

Great, thanks, marls

 

[Duggit]

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what to try if this stuff doesn't work? . . . Does anybody have any suggestions for something else to try? Anything?

Check out prominent pain neuroscientist Lorimer Moseley's perspective on persistent pain in this video:
https://www.tamethebeast.org/#tame-the-beast (Tame the Beast)

If interested in learning more about this perspective, Moseley has a booklet titled The Explain Pain Handbook: Protectometer that is available on Amazon. To take a deeper dive into the neuroscience of persistent pain, there is Butler & Moseley, Explain Pain (Second Edition), also available on Amazon but at a significantly steeper price.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Check out prominent pain neuroscientist Lorimer Moseley's perspective on persistent pain in this video:
https://www.tamethebeast.org/#tame-the-beast (Tame the Beast)

If interested in learning more about this perspective, Moseley has a booklet titled The Explain Pain Handbook: Protectometer that is available on Amazon. To take a deeper dive into the neuroscience of persistent pain, there is Butler & Moseley, Explain Pain (Second Edition), also available on Amazon but at a significantly steeper price.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have read both already.

 

[BloodMoon]

Does anybody have any suggestions as to what to try if this stuff doesn't work? I'm not looking for encouragement to keep going with TMS. I've been trying this for years. I've been posting desperate pleas for help on this form for years. I've done it all ad nauseam - Outcome independence, attitude of indifference, somatic tracking, journaling, endless therapy, processing my emotions, turning to the psychological, giving up all physical interventions, resuming activity, vigorous exercise, inpatient treatment for OCD and hypochondria, self soothing, mindfulness meditation, CBT, EFT, ACT, focusing on "life," positive self talk, affirmations, deep breathing, read every TMS book multiple times, stopped 'trying,' etc etc etc etc. I can't do it anymore. I've never had a single iota of improvement. Not a thing in 8 years. Does anybody have any suggestions for something else to try? Anything?

Some suggestions, in no particular order:

1) The Dr Michael Moskowitz neuroplasticity/'rewiring' the brain approach using visualizations (that is, if you haven't already tried it and you have the determination and will power to do it...I fell at about the fifth fence!) https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2019/08/03/rewiring-the-brain-to-get-out-of-pain-the-moskowitz-approach/ (Rewiring the Brain to Get Out of Pain: the Moskowitz Approach - Health Rising)

2) Also if you haven't already tried it - Yoga Nidra (which isn't a movement type of yoga). Yoga Nidra has been used to help war veterans with PTSD. There are other Yoga Nidra videos on youtube to choose from, which you might like or prefer, but here's one I'm using:

2a) I'm also currently reading/using this book, which uses a different approach to gaining a yoga nidra type of internal 'rest', to see if it will help me in the long term https://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Rest-...ywords=the+book+of+rest&qid=1597236352&sr=8-3.

3) Give Baseball65's 'inventory' method a try (which I'm also currently doing) - as per his posting of 30 July 2020 (which starts with "I talk about them") and my reply to that posting, both postings being on this thread: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/open-letter-to-the-people-not-getting-better-or-to-those-who-want-it-fast.23177/page-2 (Open Letter to the people NOT getting better, or to those who want it FAST).

Best;

BloodMoon

 

[Tms_joe]

If this is you admitting defeat and surrendering, you may be onto the solution right now.

The act of “trying,” for lack of any real word for it, can be stress-inducing, which is going to drive TMS and mental suffering.

There’s a bigger picture beyond the TMS journey. If you are focused on an effort to fix the pain I don’t think you could ever be successful. The journey is to improve your mental health. TMS pain goes away as a side effect. You never get a break for the rest of your life. It’s not fair. It’s never going to be. Life is hard. Always will be. If you can accept that AND the possibility that your pain could remain the rest of your years, ironically the pain and mental anguish go away.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

Some suggestions, in no particular order:

1) The Dr Michael Moskowitz neuroplasticity/'rewiring' the brain approach using visualizations (that is, if you haven't already tried it and you have the determination and will power to do it...I fell at about the fifth fence!) https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2019/08/03/rewiring-the-brain-to-get-out-of-pain-the-moskowitz-approach/ (Rewiring the Brain to Get Out of Pain: the Moskowitz Approach - Health Rising)

2) Also if you haven't already tried it - Yoga Nidra (which isn't a movement type of yoga). Yoga Nidra has been used to help war veterans with PTSD. There are other Yoga Nidra videos on youtube to choose from, which you might like or prefer, but here's one I'm using:

2a) I'm also currently reading/using this book, which uses a different approach to gaining a yoga nidra type of internal 'rest', to see if it will help me in the long term https://www.amazon.co.uk/Book-Rest-...ywords=the+book+of+rest&qid=1597236352&sr=8-3.

3) Give Baseball65's 'inventory' method a try (which I'm also currently doing) - as per his posting of 30 July 2020 (which starts with "I talk about them") and my reply to that posting, both postings being on this thread: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/open-letter-to-the-people-not-getting-better-or-to-those-who-want-it-fast.23177/page-2 (Open Letter to the people NOT getting better, or to those who want it FAST).

Best;

BloodMoon

Thank you, I’ll give the yoga nidra a try.

 

[eskimoeskimo]

If this is you admitting defeat and surrendering, you may be onto the solution right now.

The act of “trying,” for lack of any real word for it, can be stress-inducing, which is going to drive TMS and mental suffering.

There’s a bigger picture beyond the TMS journey. If you are focused on an effort to fix the pain I don’t think you could ever be successful. The journey is to improve your mental health. TMS pain goes away as a side effect. You never get a break for the rest of your life. It’s not fair. It’s never going to be. Life is hard. Always will be. If you can accept that AND the possibility that your pain could remain the rest of your years, ironically the pain and mental anguish go away.

I’m skeptical that this is realistic or even possible ... to accept life long pain. I’m never really sure what accept means.

I think this thread is more me giving up on the TMS approach, not surrendering to the pain experience or what “is” or giving up trying to stop it. I want it to stop, desperately. It’s just this TMS stuff isn’t working. Not in 8 years. And I notice a lot of people around here saying the exact same thing and pointing out all the contradictions in this approach. So I’m looking for something else.

 

[BloodMoon]

I’m skeptical that this is realistic or even possible ... to accept life long pain. I’m never really sure what accept means.

I'm with you on this - I'm not sure what it means either, given my own experience: I've been in debilitating pain for about 23 years. After around 10 years or so of trying everything under the sun to eliminate the pain and other symptoms by means of physical treatments of one sort or another and reading Sarno (but not experiencing a so called 'book cure' as a result) I gave up trying to find a cure and lived each day as best as I could, getting on with life in as meaningful and fulfilling a way as possible. I didn't dwell on my symptoms, didn't mentally 'run away' from the pain, 'accepted' that life's unfair etc., and that the pain and other symptoms could be with me for the rest of my life...but, despite that, I didn't experience my pain and other symptoms magically disappear. From experience of quite a number of replies to postings on this forum, someone who's become TMS symptom free (who I do appreciate would mean well) would probably respond by saying something along the lines of 'but did you really accept it?' and 'how do you know you truly accepted it?' and 'you probably only thought that you accepted it, but you couldn't have otherwise you would have eventually/gradually become pain free'...but then not go on to be able to explain in practical terms - perhaps because it's all too ethereal/nebulous or whatever - how exactly one achieves 'true' acceptance...and/or they might say that true acceptance (and symptom relief) will only come from doing TMS work (but not too much because TMSing over TMS hinders recovery). You've been doing TMS work for 8 years without any success and I've been doing it for at least 2 years with only some minor improvement. I'm going to continue, as I have some hope left that TMS work will work for me, but I can see why you're looking to try something different. If nothing else, the yoga nidra I suggested, and you've said you're going to try, is very relaxing - but I hope it helps you (us) more profoundly than that.

Best;
BloodMoon

 

[Latitudes9]

I'm in the same place as you..have tried it all. Yoga, journaling, acupuncture, meditation, outcome independence, somatic tracking, focusing on positive sensations, meeting with a pain psychologist and TMS therapist, CBT, DBT, reading TMS books, the Moskowitz approach, etc. I haven't been doing it nearly as long as you but I'm still tired of it. I don't really have any advice to offer other than the meager comfort of knowing that you're not alone.

I haven't tried the Yoga Nidra so I will try that. I've exhausted the merry-go-round of medications and medical treatments. I don't know where in the body your pain is located but a lot of people have been helped by scrambler/Calmare therapy (although it didn't work for me) if you haven't already tried that. I feel like I do have a little bit of hope left because I haven't gotten a nerve stimulator yet, and even if that doesn't take the pain away maybe it will lower it a bit?

I know it's so so hard and my heart goes out to you. I'm in the same boat. Thanks for articulating what I've been trying to put into words-- That there ARE some people for whom TMS methods just don't work.

 

[miffybunny]

I'm in the same place as you..have tried it all. Yoga, journaling, acupuncture, meditation, outcome independence, somatic tracking, focusing on positive sensations, meeting with a pain psychologist and TMS therapist, CBT, DBT, reading TMS books, the Moskowitz approach, etc. I haven't been doing it nearly as long as you but I'm still tired of it. I don't really have any advice to offer other than the meager comfort of knowing that you're not alone.

I haven't tried the Yoga Nidra so I will try that. I've exhausted the merry-go-round of medications and medical treatments. I don't know where in the body your pain is located but a lot of people have been helped by scrambler/Calmare therapy (although it didn't work for me) if you haven't already tried that. I feel like I do have a little bit of hope left because I haven't gotten a nerve stimulator yet, and even if that doesn't take the pain away maybe it will lower it a bit?

I know it's so so hard and my heart goes out to you. I'm in the same boat. Thanks for articulating what I've been trying to put into words-- That there ARE some people for whom TMS methods just don't work.

There was another thread about this (can't remember which one) but it's not about the methods or techniques or tools, or which books you read or "researching". That is just focusing on the wrong thing. Stop trying different techniques and start living your life. This whole process is about living your life on your terms and overcoming false beliefs. It's not about methodology or approaches. This is one of the ways that people get in their own way unfortunately. It's not that the "technique" "doesn't "work" for some people". It has literally nothing to do with that. I can't emphasize this enough. Anyone can get better...ANYONE. Techniques are irrelevant at the end of the day. What IS relevant is losing the fear of the symptoms and living your life authentically so the tms no longer serves a purpose. I wish I could shout this from the rooftops because it's where a lot of people get derailed.

 

[jamejamesjames1]

@miffybunny

I think you are likely correct and my obsession with getting out of pain is keeping me in pain.

Let's explore living life authentically. Do you have examples? Sometimes I'm frustrated with work, annoyed with my kids, feel disconnected from my wife. Fixing these issues? I feel like they are common issues and ones I'm not going to walk away from.

I also have my fun. I woodwork and kayak and read books I like. This feels like I'm living my life authentically.

Yet somehow there can be resistance to it all, the rinse and repeat nature of life. So maybe im missing the point

 

[McAllister]

Stop trying different techniques and start living your life. This whole process is about living your life on your terms and overcoming false beliefs. It's not about methodology or approaches. This is one of the ways that people get in their own way unfortunately. It's not that the "technique" "doesn't "work" for some people". It has literally nothing to do with that. I can't emphasize this enough. Anyone can get better...ANYONE. Techniques are irrelevant at the end of the day. What IS relevant is losing the fear of the symptoms and living your life authentically so the tms no longer serves a purpose. I wish I could shout this from the rooftops because it's where a lot of people get derailed.

I think I hear what you're saying. What would you advise someone who has done that and not seen results? Someone who hasn't given up anything and who is still living the same as before the pain, not letting it stop them from doing anything, but still hurts?

 

[miffybunny]

@miffybunny

I think you are likely correct and my obsession with getting out of pain is keeping me in pain.

Let's explore living life authentically. Do you have examples? Sometimes I'm frustrated with work, annoyed with my kids, feel disconnected from my wife. Fixing these issues? I feel like they are common issues and ones I'm not going to walk away from.

I also have my fun. I woodwork and kayak and read books I like. This feels like I'm living my life authentically.

Yet somehow there can be resistance to it all, the rinse and repeat nature of life. So maybe im missing the point

Living your life authentically can take many forms and it's usually in the realms of work, family, relationships, self esteem, or spirituality. It can be minor day to day things that have an accumulated effect or major obstacles (despising your job, being in a bad relationship, hating where you live, doing something because you feel obligated, feeling resentful of a situation you find intolerable, being unhappy with yourself health or appearance wise etc). Sometimes it's a matter of asserting oneself or advocating for oneself, sometimes drastic changes are needed. It's not always easy to admit certain things either so we repress. I can give examples from my own life but each person is unique of course. In my case, my younger son is severely autistic and I resented having to be his caretaker and having to deal with all the aspects of autism that consume and hold your life hostage. Many times I hated being a mother and wished I never had kids. I felt trapped and alone as my husband had to travel for work a lot. The stress was unrelenting and I didn't feel supported by my husband emotionally. Most days I thought about killing my son and myself. That's the truth and it wasn't pretty. It was hard to even admit to myself. My son almost died when he was 5 and I had a lot of guilt as well just for having those thoughts. Over time I learned to let go of things that weren't important and to put less pressure on myself. I stopped caring about what anyone thought. I got help with my son, got a divorce and I say "F it" A LOT now.

In order to get better I had to become super aware of my chronic negative thought patterns that were generating tension, I had to become really honest with myself about my feelings and I made certain changes to make my life more managable. I didn't want to defend my suffering, I wanted to lessen my suffering as much as possible. I also had to change how I was as a person. I had to become more accepting of things I couldn't change but I also learned that "No" is a full sentence and I make decisions based on what is right but also what is least stressful. The resistance piece is something you have to examine for because a lot of times we are on autopilot and generating a ton of inner tension without realizing it.