Muscle pain

[Patty Cakes]

Hi Patty, I think you need to get clear and I'm curious also as to what it means for you when you say you have TMJ. When someone says they have TMJ, they usually mean they have TMJD - temporomandibular joint dysfunction. The key question I think is if you had no pain, would you still consider yourself to have dysfunction?

I say that because plenty of people clench their jaw under stress (I looked up the most common place to clench under stress, the answer was jaw) - stress shows up in many other parts of our body too as tension, including the pelvic floor and shoulders (there's nothing wrong with this, it's normal). Many people's jaw also clicks (we have an example on this forum with Cactusflower, but there's no pain there). Both of these are common, but they often don't lead to pain.

If you would still consider your jaw to be dysfunctional even if you had no pain, then my argument kind of falls apart, but if you wouldn't (and you're only really saying it's dysfunction because it is supposedly leading to pain), then you don't really have TMJ or TMJD because those incidental findings aren't the cause of the pain (they are normal and aren't representative of dysfunction). By saying to yourself that you have TMJ, you're naming the cause of your pain, and no wonder you're terrified. if I was consistently telling myself that I had pelvic floor dysfunction (which I did tell myself for a while, and no surprise I didn't get that far during that time), but if I kept running that programming in my head, I never would have recovered because I never would have lowered the fear enough to react better to symptoms and to expand my activity (which ultimately leads to recovery, but that's very hard to do if you keep reinforcing to yourself that something is wrong with your body).

If you genuinely believe it is TMS and the evidence is there, I would drop the TMJ label completely (medical labels never help). You don't have TMJ, instead you have TMS manifesting as pain in the jaw. Just like I had TMS manifesting as pain in the pelvis (not pelvic floor dysfunction or pudendal neuralgia)

Many, many years ago I had clicking in my jaw, along with left upper arm pain. I also had tingling in my fingertips. MY dentist told me I had TMJ (i think some may call it TMJD now). GIven that diagnosis,I guess I always blamed TMJ for all my pain, since I was told it can cause pain throughout your body. It was always my belief that was the cause of my pain, despite not having any head pain for years. I've read about others with TMJ and most of their pain was in their head or jaw, which I never had. Perhaps I never had TMJ and was misdiagnosed? I always suffered a lot of anxiety. It wasn't until a couple of yrs ago (when my husband got very sick and multiple hospitals and rehabs) that my pain got worse. I could feel it down my right side (the side diagnosed w/TMJ) and when I felt that pain, I would feel it on right side head. But then it switched sides and affected my left side and head, although not as bad. THrough the years, I always wondered why I never suffered head pain if I have TMJ. Today, I had to call 911 for my husband he literally passed out in his chair. So yes I'm very anxious today and I've been anxious like this, off and on for two years now. So I guess perhaps just realizing that maybe I don't have TMJ that I've been sort of blaming my pain on for all these years, I could just substitute the TMJ and just cause it call it stress and anxiety. Especially these last two years when the pain has flared up really bad. I guess when you have a label stuck on you such as TMJ or anything else you begin to panic and worry. I do know I've always been a very anxious person. I thank you for pointing this out to me. I never really thought about it in this way.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

Many, many years ago I had clicking in my jaw, along with left upper arm pain. I also had tingling in my fingertips. MY dentist told me I had TMJ (i think some may call it TMJD now). GIven that diagnosis,I guess I always blamed TMJ for all my pain, since I was told it can cause pain throughout your body. It was always my belief that was the cause of my pain, despite not having any head pain for years. I've read about others with TMJ and most of their pain was in their head or jaw, which I never had. Perhaps I never had TMJ and was misdiagnosed?

I think that's a big possibility! The dentist may have seen the jaw clicking and seen the left upper arm pain and tingling and thought - "TMJ can cause those symptoms and her jaw is clicking, must be TMJ!". The arm pain and tingling could easily have been TMS (I'm not sure whether you still have that - let me know) and the jaw clicking was just a coincidence. It's the same with people with disc bulges - they could have TMS pain and the disc bulge is often just a coincidence (it's often there long before the pain - they just don't know it as people don't have a reason to know and investigate without symptoms) - but the doctor just assumes it must be causing it. Did your jaw click before this? It doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't TMS if the answer is no, but if the answer is yes and your jaw clicked long before this upper arm pain, then that strongly indicates that it was just a coincidence and wasn't the cause of the initial symptoms.

I guess when you have a label stuck on you such as TMJ or anything else you begin to panic and worry.

Absolutely I completely understand - it's very common and that's why labels (especially those that are often TMS) can be so damaging.

This all makes a lot of sense to me - because if I'm the brain and I am choosing what pain to give you in order to really get your attention (it's not a punishment, it's only trying to protect you), where would I choose? Well I know you've been given a TMJ diagnosis (whether it's actually correct or not), so if I give you pain that makes sense based on a TMJ diagnosis, I know you'll think it's physical (because of the fear around the diagnosis) and therefore take it seriously. TMS pain is pointless if it doesn't get your serious attention. The diagnosis was likely a nocebo and laid the foundations for the areas and nature of this TMS pain - it makes all the sense in the world based on TMS theory.

 

[Patty Cakes]

I think that's a big possibility! The dentist may have seen the jaw clicking and seen the left upper arm pain and tingling and thought - "TMJ can cause those symptoms and her jaw is clicking, must be TMJ!". The arm pain and tingling could easily have been TMS (I'm not sure whether you still have that - let me know) and the jaw clicking was just a coincidence. It's the same with people with disc bulges - they could have TMS pain and the disc bulge is often just a coincidence (it's often there long before the pain - they just don't know it as people don't have a reason to know and investigate without symptoms) - but the doctor just assumes it must be causing it. Did your jaw click before this? It doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't TMS if the answer is no, but if the answer is yes and your jaw clicked long before this upper arm pain, then that strongly indicates that it was just a coincidence and wasn't the cause of the initial symptoms.



Absolutely I completely understand - it's very common and that's why labels (especially those that are often TMS) can be so damaging.

This all makes a lot of sense to me - because if I'm the brain and I am choosing what pain to give you in order to really get your attention (it's not a punishment, it's only trying to protect you), where would I choose? Well I know you've been given a TMJ diagnosis (whether it's actually correct or not), so if I give you pain that makes sense based on a TMJ diagnosis, I know you'll think it's physical (because of the fear around the diagnosis) and therefore take it seriously. TMS pain is pointless if it doesn't get your serious attention. The diagnosis was likely a nocebo and laid the foundations for the areas and nature of this TMS pain - it makes all the sense in the world based on TMS theory.

I'm beginning to see that what you're saying all makes incredible sense. I had to call 911 twice yesterday. My husband is in the ICU today it was a very stressful day for me. My whole right side is hurting today. So I guess that's where under stress, tension and anxiety, the pain tends to be. I thank you for having all that insight that you just gave me. I guess I was so locked into that TMJ diagnosis that I couldn't see it for really what it was--just incredible anxiety, tension and panic, especially these last two years. I thank you so much for your insight. this has helped me tremendously.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

My whole right side is hurting today.

That seems way too broad to be blamed on your jaw!

I guess I was so locked into that TMJ diagnosis that I couldn't see it for really what it was--just incredible anxiety, tension and panic, especially these last two years. I thank you so much for your insight. this has helped me tremendously.

You're welcome! It's easy do and I've been there myself. It's especially easy if you're so used to putting other people first and as a result often minimise or dismiss your own stress/emotions (if you're not aware of your own stress/emotions, it's hard to appreciate that as the culprit as opposed to a structural explanation that you've been told by a professional) - but it's great that you're starting the self-compassionate exercise of appreciating your stress/emotions which is resulting in you standing up for yourself more

It seems you don't have TMJ, you have TMS instead and as such are like me and everyone else here who have healed from a variety of different symptoms, it's all the same solution (and hopefully that makes you feel less alone compared to when it was the narrower criteria of TMJ)

 

[Patty Cakes]

That seems way too broad to be blamed on your jaw!



You're welcome! It's easy do and I've been there myself. It's especially easy if you're so used to putting other people first and as a result often minimise or dismiss your own stress/emotions (if you're not aware of your own stress/emotions, it's hard to appreciate that as the culprit as opposed to a structural explanation that you've been told by a professional) - but it's great that you're starting the self-compassionate exercise of appreciating your stress/emotions which is resulting in you standing up for yourself more

It seems you don't have TMJ, you have TMS instead and as such are like me and everyone else here who have healed from a variety of different symptoms, it's all the same solution (and hopefully that makes you feel less alone compared to when it was the narrower criteria of TMJ)

Thanks so much! Today the pain disappeared from my right side and is now on my left. But I am a little anxious because I have to bring some things to my husband, who is now sitting in an emergency room, since the ICU unit is full. But I can definitely see that stress, panic and anxiety definitely play a huge role in me. but I'm learning new techniques and I've been able to lessen the pain in my head, which has been a huge relief for me. THanks again. I would have never had this realization by myself.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

But I can definitely see that stress, panic and anxiety definitely play a huge role in me. but I'm learning new techniques and I've been able to lessen the pain in my head, which has been a huge relief for me. THanks again. I would have never had this realization by myself.

You're welcome - once it clicks it's the beginning of the end for symptoms

 

[Patty Cakes]

You're welcome - once it clicks it's the beginning of the end for symptoms

You're welcome - once it clicks it's the beginning of the end for symptoms

You're welcome - once it clicks it's the beginning of the end for symptoms

i've had three very difficult days, dealing with my husband. I had to go yesterday to the emergency room to bring him some clothing. Typically I would be in an utter panic. I kept it together. I was so proud of myself. I did wake up that morning with some left-sided pain but I kept it at a minimum. I got home and I still had a little left-sided pain but not too too bad. I did a little journaling in the afternoon writing about some things in my childhood. Immediately after doing so my right side flared up a little bit. I I did what everybody is suggesting in the books and online, not panicking, not spiraling myself into a ten level pain. And actually the right sided pain that I felt went totally away. And I was like oh my God this works. So last night I relaxed. I watched some shows that I was looking forward to watching and I was OK. When I went to bed and relaxed,I could feel a little bit of the right side pain again. I once again kept calm and told myself I was safe, I was in my bed and I was OK. So I woke up this morning and I had dreams of what I had written about in my journal. That typically happens to me because my dreams are very vivid. And they're usually an indication of something I had journaled about. . So today when I woke up my right side is in pain. Trying not to stress, not to panic and I think I'm doing OK, although the pain is still there. But I guess my question would be, can I have held it together for three very very stressful days with 911 paramedics here twice on Saturday, arguing with my husband at 11 o'clock at night on Sunday, to stay in the hospital. And then the walk-through a very scary emergency room with people on stretchers, people moaning and groaning in pain. That to me is scary stuff. So I wonder if holding it together for the three days and then having a dream about what I was journaling about could bring about that anxiety and the pain rearing its ugly head again. I just wondered if anybody had gone through that or if this is normal as you're working your way through this TMS stuff that this can and does happen. I know it's not a straight line. I've read and listen to the videos where they said the healing middle is very sloppy. I'm still going over some childhood memories that weren't bad but that they did caused me some stress and then even talking about it, I get stressed.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I did what everybody is suggesting in the books and online, not panicking, not spiraling myself into a ten level pain. And actually the right sided pain that I felt went totally away.

Excellent!

So today when I woke up my right side is in pain. Trying not to stress, not to panic and I think I'm doing OK, although the pain is still there. But I guess my question would be, can I have held it together for three very very stressful days with 911 paramedics here twice on Saturday, arguing with my husband at 11 o'clock at night on Sunday, to stay in the hospital. And then the walk-through a very scary emergency room with people on stretchers, people moaning and groaning in pain. That to me is scary stuff. So I wonder if holding it together for the three days and then having a dream about what I was journaling about could bring about that anxiety and the pain rearing its ugly head again. I just wondered if anybody had gone through that or if this is normal as you're working your way through this TMS stuff that this can and does happen. I know it's not a straight line. I've read and listen to the videos where they said the healing middle is very sloppy. I'm still going over some childhood memories that weren't bad but that they did caused me some stress and then even talking about it, I get stressed.

This is the perfect example of, as you appreciated, the process not being linear. I may have spoken out of turn, but when I said it's the beginning of the end I meant in a broader sense, there are ups and downs still for sure. The idea is to send enough messages of safety over time (in the form of calmer reactions to symptoms) and these build up until eventually the brain feels safe enough to turn the symptoms off.

What's happened here from what I've seen is that it worked in the moment a day previously, so you expected it to this time. When it didn't, there's a bit of panic which is reflected in trying to figure this out and explain why. I think you're going way too deep into the analysis there - the answer to your question is yes, going over some childhood memories can trigger you and stress in general can trigger symptoms, but you don't have to figure it out every time (in fact, trying to do so is just going to leave you in a tail spin).

I think the key thing is to emphasise that for me reacting better to symptoms isn't just a tactic. You talked about not panicking as the books say, but I don't want you to react that way just because I or anyone else told you to, I want you to react that way because you believe that is the correct reaction (I guess reacting better because you're told to is better than freaking out still, but I'll explain why it's not the best strategy). You have to understand why reacting better is justified. The only way you're going to genuinely believe it's the correct reaction is if you genuinely believe that there's nothing wrong with your body (because if something is wrong with your body, then I wouldn't expect someone to react that well). That can be built over time, you don't need to be 100% sure right now, but that should be the focus (your belief in the TMS diagnosis) because that naturally drives better reactions (I'm not saying that attempting to react better in any specific moment is a bad thing, but to me it just needs to come from the right place and you need to understand why).

To me the reason you're stressed (about this specifically) and the reason that the fact it didn't work (reacting better in the moment this one time) caused you to get hyper-analytical is because you're treating reacting better purely as a tactic, like taking a pill. If the pill doesn't work, then naturally you're going to start questioning whether you did something wrong or even worse whether it is TMS (or whatever the pill is treating - obviously not TMS in that example) in the first place (I can see this in what you wrote, you're basically from my read saying I'm not sure why the pain is back and why me reacting better in the moment didn't work, so I'm looking for reassurance that it's still TMS). The truth is though reacting better isn't like a pill, because once you are quite sure there's nothing wrong with your body, it's just natural to react better (I've never met anyone who doesn't have some form of relief by being told that their symptoms aren't reflective of body damage - because we all care about that because we are all human beings designed to survive). Reacting better is the right thing to do when it comes to TMS, but I'd be cautious to treat it as a tactic, especially a short term one. React better because it's common sense based on the knowledge that actually your body is ok, not just because someone said it's the right thing to do

 

[Patty Cakes]

I did what everybody is suggesting in the books and online, not panicking, not spiraling myself into a ten level pain. And actually the right sided pain that I felt went totally away.

Excellent!

So today when I woke up my right side is in pain. Trying not to stress, not to panic and I think I'm doing OK, although the pain is still there. But I guess my question would be, can I have held it together for three very very stressful days with 911 paramedics here twice on Saturday, arguing with my husband at 11 o'clock at night on Sunday, to stay in the hospital. And then the walk-through a very scary emergency room with people on stretchers, people moaning and groaning in pain. That to me is scary stuff. So I wonder if holding it together for the three days and then having a dream about what I was journaling about could bring about that anxiety and the pain rearing its ugly head again. I just wondered if anybody had gone through that or if this is normal as you're working your way through this TMS stuff that this can and does happen. I know it's not a straight line. I've read and listen to the videos where they said the healing middle is very sloppy. I'm still going over some childhood memories that weren't bad but that they did caused me some stress and then even talking about it, I get stressed.

This is the perfect example of, as you appreciated, the process not being linear. I may have spoken out of turn, but when I said it's the beginning of the end I meant in a broader sense, there are ups and downs still for sure. The idea is to send enough messages of safety over time (in the form of calmer reactions to symptoms) and these build up until eventually the brain feels safe enough to turn the symptoms off.

What's happened here from what I've seen is that it worked in the moment a day previously, so you expected it to this time. When it didn't, there's a bit of panic which is reflected in trying to figure this out and explain why. I think you're going way too deep into the analysis there - the answer to your question is yes, going over some childhood memories can trigger you and stress in general can trigger symptoms, but you don't have to figure it out every time (in fact, trying to do so is just going to leave you in a tail spin).

I think the key thing is to emphasise that for me reacting better to symptoms isn't just a tactic. You talked about not panicking as the books say, but I don't want you to react that way just because I or anyone else told you to, I want you to react that way because you believe that is the correct reaction (I guess reacting better because you're told to is better than freaking out still, but I'll explain why it's not the best strategy). You have to understand why reacting better is justified. The only way you're going to genuinely believe it's the correct reaction is if you genuinely believe that there's nothing wrong with your body (because if something is wrong with your body, then I wouldn't expect someone to react that well). That can be built over time, you don't need to be 100% sure right now, but that should be the focus (your belief in the TMS diagnosis) because that naturally drives better reactions (I'm not saying that attempting to react better in any specific moment is a bad thing, but to me it just needs to come from the right place and you need to understand why).

To me the reason you're stressed (about this specifically) and the reason that the fact it didn't work (reacting better in the moment this one time) caused you to get hyper-analytical is because you're treating reacting better purely as a tactic, like taking a pill. If the pill doesn't work, then naturally you're going to start questioning whether you did something wrong or even worse whether it is TMS (or whatever the pill is treating - obviously not TMS in that example) in the first place (I can see this in what you wrote, you're basically from my read saying I'm not sure why the pain is back and why me reacting better in the moment didn't work, so I'm looking for reassurance that it's still TMS). The truth is though reacting better isn't like a pill, because once you are quite sure there's nothing wrong with your body, it's just natural to react better (I've never met anyone who doesn't have some form of relief by being told that their symptoms aren't reflective of body damage - because we all care about that because we are all human beings designed to survive). Reacting better is the right thing to do when it comes to TMS, but I'd be cautious to treat it as a tactic, especially a short term one. React better because it's common sense based on the knowledge that actually your body is ok, not just because someone said it's the right thing to do

I do tend to over analyze a lot. I always blamed my TMJ for all the pain and I'm realizing it doesn't make sense, as u wrote in an earlier post. I think it will just take some time for me to truly grasp everything u said. I have read and will reread (many times) what u have explained. Thank you for explaining all of this. I started reading Dr. Sarno's book a couple of days ago.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I started reading Dr. Sarno's book a couple of days ago.

Sounds good! Let me know if you have any questions

 

[Patty Cakes]

Sounds good! Let me know if you have any questions

Actually I do have another question and here goes. I wanted to ask you how much our personality traits factor into TMS. I know I'm an INFJ, and I've noticed something: when I get advice like 'just leave the dishes' or 'let a messed-up order go for a couple of days,' it actually causes my nervous system more stress because of how I'm wired. How much does our personality type impact TMS, and how do we best navigate that without making ourselves more anxious?" Thanks again!

 

[Ellen]

How much does our personality type impact TMS, and how do we best navigate that without making ourselves more anxious?"

I know your question is for Adam, and he will have a great answer for you. I just thought I'd chime in.

Our personality traits are certainly a factor in why we get TMS. However, we just need to be aware (mindful) of this. We don't have to try to change who we are. Just be mindful that traits like perfectionism may be adding to your stress, and give yourself some grace.

 

[Cactusflower]

Actually I do have another question and here goes. I wanted to ask you how much our personality traits factor into TMS. I know I'm an INFJ, and I've noticed something: when I get advice like 'just leave the dishes' or 'let a messed-up order go for a couple of days,' it actually causes my nervous system more stress because of how I'm wired. How much does our personality type impact TMS, and how do we best navigate that without making ourselves more anxious?" Thanks again!

I think that "just leave the dishes" or "leave the mess" depends on what it entails.
What is really going on? Your need for perfectionism and control because you feel out of control to feel your emotions and situations or anger because someone is basically bossing you around and expecting you not to have a choice in your autonomy?
Right now, the little things will seem big and you'll notice them but as you work within these things over time, you'll be able to zoom out and see the bigger picture.
Bigger picture really helps you to set good boundaries and decide when and where (at least part of the time) to engage in your personality trait behaviors.
Eg. perhaps leaving the dishes for an hour while you go grocery shopping is acceptable and fine.
However when you are home do you feel it's a decision or a compulsion to get them done (which in all honesty, doesn't really matter).
Is the issue that you get pissed off when someone steals your autonomy and expects you to engage in behaviors that placate their own personality traits?

Once you slowly begin to see things for what they are, it becomes easier to set boundaries.

 

[Patty Cakes]

I think that "just leave the dishes" or "leave the mess" depends on what it entails.
What is really going on? Your need for perfectionism and control because you feel out of control to feel your emotions and situations or anger because someone is basically bossing you around and expecting you not to have a choice in your autonomy?
Right now, the little things will seem big and you'll notice them but as you work within these things over time, you'll be able to zoom out and see the bigger picture.
Bigger picture really helps you to set good boundaries and decide when and where (at least part of the time) to engage in your personality trait behaviors.
Eg. perhaps leaving the dishes for an hour while you go grocery shopping is acceptable and fine.
However when you are home do you feel it's a decision or a compulsion to get them done (which in all honesty, doesn't really matter).
Is the issue that you get pissed off when someone steals your autonomy and expects you to engage in behaviors that placate their own personality traits?

Once you slowly begin to see things for what they are, it becomes easier to set boundaries.

Let me give you one example of what happened recently. I get Walmart deliveries to my home. So my delivery came and as I was beginning to put my groceries away, I noticed that half my order was missing. It was a very large order. So I thought to myself OK I have to go and call Walmart and see if they can offer a solution. So I called Walmart online and they told me to put in a new order, for the missing items. I had given a $40 tip to the delivery driver. I explained that I tend to give big tips because they will put the groceries in my breezeway for me. I told them if half my order was missing and I had another driver deliver them to me, it wasn't fair for me to not give this delivery driver no tip or a small one. They answered me by saying we'll take half the tip away from the previous driver. I said it wasn't fair and she shouldn't be having half her tip taken away. I then asked if Walmart could refund me half of the tip so that when I ordered again, I could give half that money over to the new driver. Told me they couldn't do that. So it was a very frustrating scenario, to say the least. I got advice that I should've just let the issue slide and call Walmart in a couple of days. I just felt that I couldn't. I had to take care of this issue that day. So I hear what you're saying about some of the things you have to just maybe let go or set your boundaries but this wasn't anybody telling me to do something. it was just my own self telling me I had to go about correcting it and I wasn't going to wait two days in order to do so. I know it's an extreme example but one which caused me to flare up bad that day. SInce I've started this TMS work, I have been setting better boundaries, especially with my husband. he must be noticing because he remarked "gee, it sounds like u don't care anymore."

 

[Patty Cakes]

And soon after I wrote about that frustrating event, my right side flared up.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I know your question is for Adam, and he will have a great answer for you. I just thought I'd chime in.

Our personality traits are certainly a factor in why we get TMS. However, we just need to be aware (mindful) of this. We don't have to try to change who we are. Just be mindful that traits like perfectionism may be adding to your stress, and give yourself some grace.

100% agree with this - I'd also say Patty that I'm an INFJ too! I used to be really into the Myers-Briggs personality test, but I've slowly moved away from it as part of me feels as if it can be unnecessarily restrictive. It can be very informative, but at the same time I just think you're so much more than it and you're able to make decisions beyond it.

The reason I say that is because I think your example can be altered through re-wiring, I don't think you're necessarily stuck with it based on personality. @Cactusflower alluded to this, but once you understand the why's of that tendency I absolutely think you can become more comfortable with the dishes sitting there for example. I don't want you to feel stuck and trapped by your personality, as feeling trapped is a massive TMS trigger.

I just felt that I couldn't. I had to take care of this issue that day. So I hear what you're saying about some of the things you have to just maybe let go or set your boundaries but this wasn't anybody telling me to do something. it was just my own self telling me I had to go about correcting it and I wasn't going to wait two days in order to do so. I know it's an extreme example but one which caused me to flare up bad that day. SInce I've started this TMS work, I have been setting better boundaries, especially with my husband. he must be noticing because he remarked "gee, it sounds like u don't care anymore."

I'd obviously defer to you as to what feels right and correct for you (and I don't want to tell you how to think or what's acceptable to you), but part of me thinks you might be being too hard on yourself. I think most people would have wanted to get it settled that day. I wouldn't necessarily set the holy grail of where you want to get to as "a calm and regulated person would have let that go and would have waited a few days". I say not necessarily to that.

I think you handled it very well and it all made sense to me as to what you were saying - you stood up for yourself and tried to find a solution, when you could have easily caved on the phone (I'm impressed, as I would have been tempted to in your position given my people-pleasing tendencies).

I think it's just as likely that the flare up here is the self-judgment and guilt of "I should have handled it differently" rather than how you actually handled the situation. So it might not be "I flared because I couldn't let it go and wait two days" but rather "I flared because I couldn't accept how I handled it and needlessly judged myself, chasing an "ideal" way to handle things when it doesn't exist". Most people would have felt a strong urge to get it sorted that day, but not everyone in that group would have TMS. Why? I think mainly because those who don't get TMS don't judge themselves for feeling that way. To me, the biggest reason/trigger for TMS is arguably the inability to accept and validate your emotions/feelings/actions without self-judgment (that's what causes repression and that's also a common thread when it comes to the TMS personality traits - for example a perfectionist doesn't accept their best as good enough, which is a similar thing). You're entitled to be frustrated (I was frustrated for you reading it) and you're entitled to want to have it sorted quickly!

The fact that simply writing about it caused pain is massive evidence of this too I feel.

 

[BloodMoon]

I used to be really into the Myers-Briggs personality test, but I've slowly moved away from it as part of me feels as if it can be unnecessarily restrictive. It can be very informative, but at the same time I just think you're so much more than it and you're able to make decisions beyond it.

I agree. After I did the test, I realised that it doesn't distinguish between nature and nurture. Yes, a person may have reacted to the questions in an INFJ way, but was that because their upbringing trained them to react, think and behave like that? Maybe, for instance, the extrovert in them got crushed somewhat — or a lot — during their childhood, or whatever. I can't remember what the “verdict” on me was. What I do remember is feeling a bit down about it and thinking — “I don't want to be that person!”

I got advice that I should've just let the issue slide and call Walmart in a couple of days.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda — there's no “should've” about it! There was nothing wrong with phoning them the same day. Sometimes we may decide to hang back and let something sit for a while, but who wants to live their life with all sorts of matters hanging around on a mental (or written) list waiting to be “sorted out later”? And, as you say, you weren't reacting to somebody telling you that you had to do something — you simply decided that you wanted to deal with the problem and do it straight away.

In fact, if you'd left it for two days, Walmart might have wondered why you hadn't contacted them about the missing items sooner, which could potentially have made things more difficult. So I don't think the lesson necessarily needs to be “I should have waited”. Maybe it's more about noticing the quality of the urgency: “I want to sort this out today” rather than “I absolutely HAVE to sort this out today”. There's a subtle but important difference there, with the latter potentially creating a 'danger' message to your TMSing prone brain.

I'm one of those people who always wants to come up with and suggest a practical solution (even when people haven't asked me to — lol ). When I read about your Walmart troubles last night, I woke up this morning thinking, “I know what Patty could consider doing...”

You could perhaps tip the second delivery driver just a little less than you tipped the first delivery driver, then tip subsequent delivery drivers just a little less too, until you've effectively made up what you tipped the second delivery driver — and then go back to your usual full tip when you want to give a full tip for the drivers' good service. Not sure whether that's actually workable, though, as I'm a Brit and we don't have much of a tipping culture!

It is frustrating, but at the end of the day, it's not your fault that Walmart doesn't have a satisfactory way of dealing with situations like this so that the drivers don't end up losing out too much.

 

[Patty Cakes]

100% agree with this - I'd also say Patty that I'm an INFJ too! I used to be really into the Myers-Briggs personality test, but I've slowly moved away from it as part of me feels as if it can be unnecessarily restrictive. It can be very informative, but at the same time I just think you're so much more than it and you're able to make decisions beyond it.

The reason I say that is because I think your example can be altered through re-wiring, I don't think you're necessarily stuck with it based on personality. @Cactusflower alluded to this, but once you understand the why's of that tendency I absolutely think you can become more comfortable with the dishes sitting there for example. I don't want you to feel stuck and trapped by your personality, as feeling trapped is a massive TMS trigger.



I'd obviously defer to you as to what feels right and correct for you (and I don't want to tell you how to think or what's acceptable to you), but part of me thinks you might be being too hard on yourself. I think most people would have wanted to get it settled that day. I wouldn't necessarily set the holy grail of where you want to get to as "a calm and regulated person would have let that go and would have waited a few days". I say not necessarily to that.

I think you handled it very well and it all made sense to me as to what you were saying - you stood up for yourself and tried to find a solution, when you could have easily caved on the phone (I'm impressed, as I would have been tempted to in your position given my people-pleasing tendencies).

I think it's just as likely that the flare up here is the self-judgment and guilt of "I should have handled it differently" rather than how you actually handled the situation. So it might not be "I flared because I couldn't let it go and wait two days" but rather "I flared because I couldn't accept how I handled it and needlessly judged myself, chasing an "ideal" way to handle things when it doesn't exist". Most people would have felt a strong urge to get it sorted that day, but not everyone in that group would have TMS. Why? I think mainly because those who don't get TMS don't judge themselves for feeling that way. To me, the biggest reason/trigger for TMS is arguably the inability to accept and validate your emotions/feelings/actions without self-judgment (that's what causes repression and that's also a common thread when it comes to the TMS personality traits - for example a perfectionist doesn't accept their best as good enough, which is a similar thing). You're entitled to be frustrated (I was frustrated for you reading it) and you're entitled to want to have it sorted quickly!

The fact that simply writing about it caused pain is massive evidence of this too I feel.

I never thought about the fact I may have been judging myself but perhaps that's what I've been doing. I know that I have a strong moral compass, and I feel very strongly about what I consider fair/unfair, right/wrong. And life isn't always fair. Perhaps I do judge myself and didn't even realize I'm doing so. You have given me a lot to think about. I"m so glad I have connected with another INFJ. I also don't want to be trapped by that either or have it totally define me. THere are many positives with being that way but some downsides to it too. I guess I have to learn to be not so rigid at times.

 

[Patty Cakes]

I agree. After I did the test, I realised that it doesn't distinguish between nature and nurture. Yes, a person may have reacted to the questions in an INFJ way, but was that because their upbringing trained them to react, think and behave like that? Maybe, for instance, the extrovert in them got crushed somewhat — or a lot — during their childhood, or whatever. I can't remember what the “verdict” on me was. What I do remember is feeling a bit down about it and thinking — “I don't want to be that person!”

Shoulda, woulda, coulda — there's no “should've” about it! There was nothing wrong with phoning them the same day. Sometimes we may decide to hang back and let something sit for a while, but who wants to live their life with all sorts of matters hanging around on a mental (or written) list waiting to be “sorted out later”? And, as you say, you weren't reacting to somebody telling you that you had to do something — you simply decided that you wanted to deal with the problem and do it straight away.

In fact, if you'd left it for two days, Walmart might have wondered why you hadn't contacted them about the missing items sooner, which could potentially have made things more difficult. So I don't think the lesson necessarily needs to be “I should have waited”. Maybe it's more about noticing the quality of the urgency: “I want to sort this out today” rather than “I absolutely HAVE to sort this out today”. There's a subtle but important difference there, with the latter potentially creating a 'danger' message to your TMSing prone brain.

I'm one of those people who always wants to come up with and suggest a practical solution (even when people haven't asked me to — lol ). When I read about your Walmart troubles last night, I woke up this morning thinking, “I know what Patty could consider doing...”

You could perhaps tip the second delivery driver just a little less than you tipped the first delivery driver, then tip subsequent delivery drivers just a little less too, until you've effectively made up what you tipped the second delivery driver — and then go back to your usual full tip when you want to give a full tip for the drivers' good service. Not sure whether that's actually workable, though, as I'm a Brit and we don't have much of a tipping culture!

It is frustrating, but at the end of the day, it's not your fault that Walmart doesn't have a satisfactory way of dealing with situations like this so that the drivers don't end up losing out too much.

I"ve always had a deep sense of justice and what is right or wrong. I guess I need to think about my reactions to events and noticing the quality of the urgency. Do I want to do this or do I have to. I never really thought about it in that way. I was a secretary and always had to be organized, think one step ahead, solve problems, etc. I'm retired now, so maybe I have to see there isn't just one way to do something or there may be other ways to solve a problem, instead of just thinking it has to be the way I think it should be. I do get frustrated when people just don't get how I feel things should go. Like the coach, you have given me lots to think about. Thanks for your insight.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

Maybe, for instance, the extrovert in them got crushed somewhat — or a lot — during their childhood, or whatever. I can't remember what the “verdict” on me was.

Yes! I was extremely extroverted as a child - then moved schools by myself and became completely introverted - so my nature is likely more extroverted (which doesn't show on the test as you alluded to).

I never thought about the fact I may have been judging myself but perhaps that's what I've been doing.

From everything you've said, I'm probably as confident as I can be that you do (but so do most with TMS).

I"ve always had a deep sense of justice and what is right or wrong.

@BloodMoon discussed this above, but I share this too - although recently I've been questioning whether personally it comes from a moral place or it comes from a place of fear. I'm not trying to be too hard on myself and it is a good thing (a lot of it does come from a good place), but I know that a lot of what I do and how I am stems from a very strong fear of judgment. I'm not trying to put my experience on you, but just in case it is food for thought