Ok.... soooo what do we do if the breath isn't the neutral position, because shortness of breath is my "learned behavior" from underlying anxiety I don't feel? It's been an on/off thing and I know it's TMS. I'm @ a loss how to work on normalizing the breathing- it's obviously fine when I'm asleep. And it comes in waves - some days I breath great - other days I'm constantly fighting for a satisfying breath. So I find in these episodes that mindfulness & meditation & breath work makes it even worse
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Alan has completed the new Pain Recovery Program. To read or share it, use this updated link: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/painrecovery/
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New Program Day 11: Pain Reprocessing
- Thread starter Alan Gordon LCSW
- Start date
bluesboy63
Well known member
Thank you so much! I've just taken the time to look back at some of my alerts and it feels so good to be able to help. One of my biggest regrets in life is never pursuing a career in psychology so knowing that at least my Google degree can help in some ways is very comforting!
plum
Beloved Grand Eagle
My Dad is in his late 70's and in the final year of a Psychology degree via The Open University. As a post-war, working class kid he had no chance of pursuing the educational path so we are all stupidly proud of him for doing it now.
Point is you can pursue that career. The field needs people like you who 'get it'. And if you don't want to or can't, you are a gem for helping people here and doubtless in your own life.
I raise my glass to you.
bluesboy63
Well known member
Plum, you made my day! For now however, I'll have to stick to gaining my Google Masters degree in psychology! I have twins that are currently entering their sophomore year of college so no room for one more student loan. Probably one of my main sources of TMS...hyper-responsibility along with the textbook perfectionism. I'm a firm believer that one thing that's missed in the TMS equation is this... Those of us that are subconsciously afraid to fail, or were brought up with a fear of taking chances, back ourselves up into a corner of responsibilities. We can't take chances without being COMPLETELY irresponsible in our eyes. The best way to cover this up is to bury ourselves in responsibility (my grandmother did this to me, understandably, she was born in 1923, lived through the depression, PLUS her mother died giving birth to her!).
I'm a work in progress, probably always will be but I will also NEVER stop trying to figure this thing out.
Ellen
Beloved Grand Eagle
Oh, man, only a TMSer would beat himself up for being too responsible
There's no way to win the judgement game. Damned if you do, damned if you don't is a hard life. I'm giving it up.........join me, and all the wonderful people on this Forum.
bluesboy63
Well known member
I'm not really looking at it as beating myself up for being too responsible. It's more knowing myself, how I got here, and realizing that said "responsibility" cost me every single dream I had. At some point we have to let go and take the "it's going to be okay, either way" attitude. I've tried to teach my kids to go after their dreams with a passion. The more responsibilities you let pile up, the further away those dreams go so there's no time like the present!Oh, man, only a TMSer would beat himself up for being too responsible
I'm giving it up.........join me, and all the wonderful people on this Forum.
Alan Gordon LCSW
TMS Therapist
Hi Ann, the neutral position can be anything, it can be the feeling of your feet on the ground or the feeling of your hands on your lap. The important thing is that it isn't something that causes you fear.
plum
Beloved Grand Eagle
You are so right about responsibility. I've been circling something around this in my head but you've hit the bullseye. The only other personal experience I would add is seeing someone fail catestrophically and living through the fallout. Tack that onto fear of failure and/or fear of taking chances and I see the genesis of my TMS.
Interestingly for a long time I lived a rich bohemian life and during those years I was free from responsibility and TMS. I see very clearly how a dramatic change in events and fortune backed me into the corner. This is something very potent for me to muse on and I'm immensely grateful you posted this.
I have had this realisation too. I have let go of my dreams and have instead supported others in making theirs happen. Where I haven't actively done so, I have acted as a catalyst (at great personal cost with no thanks or credit).
Hmm.
On the bright side it's not too late.
I recall someone telling me they'd heard Bruce Springstein interviewed and he was asked about how he felt in the moments before he went on stage. Typically many performers have stage fright but he said no. He had all the same sensations...the churning stomach, the racing heart etc...however to him these sensations did not represent fear but excitement. I'm experiencing a switch along those lines as I write this. I feel excited about my future. Now that has been a long time coming.
Oh Yes, and my little brothers are twins
Lainey
Well known member
Blueboy
I want to add, that I pursued a graduate degree in Counseling Psych starting at the "ripe old age" of 44. I became licensed and eventually went on to work as a therapist and manager in a large public agency that worked with families, children and individuals. This career path was taken just because someone, unwittingly, said that I "should" consider such a career option. I am encouraging you to not let go of your dream, if that dream is still cogent.
Lainey
bluesboy63
Well known member
Lainey, thank you for the encouraging words. There are only a few things that I am passionate about and psychology is one of them. My first career option will always be musician but that one is completely unrealistic!
bluesboy63
Well known member
I love the Springsteen reference! It reminds me of one of my most useful tools to keep my head straight where TMS and anxiety are concerned. I have the Google Keep app which allows me to pin notes to my phone screen. Since I like many people are never far from my phone, I find that I glance at the notes frequently. One of my favorites is "Don't mistake excitement for anxiety...Don't mistake adrenaline for panic". Here is another: "Are you living life or simply existing? Take a break from being broken!" I feel like often we are so consumed with this syndrome and are so consumed with fixing ourselves that it's all we focus on which can be just as damaging. I would venture to guess that most of us also have OCD to some extreme. The obsessive part is what I have and it is a killer. Another good one: "I can't control my thoughts, I CAN control my reaction to them". As I come up with something relevant, I make a new note and pin it to my screen. Just thought I'd share...You are so right about responsibility. I've been circling something around this in my head but you've hit the bullseye. The only other personal experience I would add is seeing someone fail catestrophically and living through the fallout. Tack that onto fear of failure and/or fear of taking chances and I see the genesis of my TMS.
Interestingly for a long time I lived a rich bohemian life and during those years I was free from responsibility and TMS. I see very clearly how a dramatic change in events and fortune backed me into the corner. This is something very potent for me to muse on and I'm immensely grateful you posted this.
I have had this realisation too. I have let go of my dreams and have instead supported others in making theirs happen. Where I haven't actively done so, I have acted as a catalyst (at great personal cost with no thanks or credit).
Hmm.
On the bright side it's not too late.
I recall someone telling me they'd heard Bruce Springstein interviewed and he was asked about how he felt in the moments before he went on stage. Typically many performers have stage fright but he said no. He had all the same sensations...the churning stomach, the racing heart etc...however to him these sensations did not represent fear but excitement. I'm experiencing a switch along those lines as I write this. I feel excited about my future. Now that has been a long time coming.
Oh Yes, and my little brothers are twins
hodini
Peer Supporter
Hi RB,
I have noticed also that there are quite a few intelligent questions which critically examine claims, techniques and methods which go unanswered. This is quite often the case when a theory is weak, it cannot withstand examination. rather then address questions which may weaken the theory further, the questions are ignored and the ones answered are cherry picked, or else use double talk t explain.
bluesboy63
Well known member
Did you bother looking for responses to this question? NO, I'm not the creator of this course but I did respond. The first hurdle to overcoming TMS is believing in the process. The reason most didn't respond was probably because this very question was dealt with within the course.
hodini
Peer Supporter
Hi Bluesboy,
This statement is one of the reasons I have difficulty in accepting TMS as a valid diagnosis for most.
1) It is claimed that belief in the TMS diagnosis is critical for one to improve ones condition.
2) when you say '...it will ALWAYS be looking for new ways to attack. " you are basically saying TMS is an incurable disease or condition.
That being the case, why in the world would anyone desire without having substantial documentation to accept that they have an incurable disease or condition?
Worse then that is, that their own thoughts and emotions and actions (conscious or not) are the causal factors! So "it", being TMS, is always lurking within to attack ones self from within.
For me that is just outright cruelty.
bluesboy63
Well known member
It's a process for sure and maybe it would be considered "incurable" however, it IS controllable. Would you rather sit there in agonizing pain, have some unnecessary back surgery, still be in pain and chase some medical cure that isn't there or have the tools to notice what's happening, the tools to address it, and the tools to stop it?? Listen, this isn't something that you get over in an hour simply by accepting it, though that is the first step. You will lock into methods that work for you. As I stated in an earlier post, TMS is the start of the pain, but that's just the beginning. From there the neural pathways build and it becomes as much a fear issue as anything. Different things trigger this. Personally, I can track my first issues with TMS back 40+ years. Embedded issues that have had that long to take over your psyche don't reverse overnight.
hodini
Peer Supporter
Hi Bluesboy,
First I would like to start off by saying that my comments were not intended in any way to impugn your intelligence or motives nor to attempt to diminish whatever suffering you may have encountered along the road of life.
I was simply responding in an honest way to what appear to be your perceptions. In my other post, I was merely making mention of the myriad of questions about TMS that go unanswered, or many times are answered in double talk or by saying "read X book and it will explain everything.
In fact, perhaps you might want to address one of the questions I have posed several times and gotten no response from. For me, it is often the questions that go unanswered that inform you more then the ones that are.
It has been said that the majority of people with TMS have "perfectionist" personalities. Without going into the veracity of the statement, I read that you considered yourself having that type of personality.
I would like to know from you, just how you approach "not caring about your pain", when Alan speaks of "authentic indifference", having to self determine if pain is coming from some structural situation, or, mental process, or, something simply out of reach of your understanding at the moment.
If one does have a perfectionist personality, (and I would consider myself one to some degree), how does one react to unattainable goals such as "not caring about ones pain"? It is the perfect scenario for a perfectionist to continue to attain and so enables the personality rather then moderating it. I have heard others on the site describe this as being a mind trap and I agree.
My questions about "authentic indifference" also go unattended. Who decides when "indifference" is authentic?
What is the way to measure? How could that term be used and apply to the individuals that human beings are? Is it self authenticating? If so, again, it is fuel for the fire for anyone with a perfectionist personality as it implies a perfection of sorts in itself.
When one is experiencing pain, it is a big deal (depending on the severity), to try and access if it is harmful or not. How would one go about this, especially if they have a perfectionist personality and more so, why should they be expected to which the TMS doctrine seems to imply?
BB, I ask these questions in all seriousness, I do not expect an immediate answer to them as I am sure they will require some contemplation, so no rush.
In addition, I am assuming that you were responding to my question "That being the case, why in the world would anyone desire without having substantial documentation to accept that they have an incurable disease or condition? If not set me straight.
When you responded with the following question: "Would you rather sit there in agonizing pain, have some unnecessary back surgery, still be in pain and chase some medical cure that isn't there or have the tools to notice what's happening, the tools to address it, and the tools to stop it??"
I have not quite grasped your meaning. If, you are saying people will do, say, think almost anything when they are in enough pain, that I can concur with, however, if you are saying that the only way to address the pain in a positive way is to accept that one has an incurable disease or condition of which the cause is themselves, I disagree. Like I have stated many times here, that sort of perception can easily lead to self blaming and removes the focus from the veracity of the theory and places it squarely upon the practitioner of the theory.
Furthermore, I also think that words matter. If you say that: "It's absolutely possible for old injuries to come back with symptoms. the brain doesn't forget and if you're textbook TMS as you and I are, it will ALWAYS be looking for new ways to attack. This is why it's SO important to develop the tools to be able to notice this for what it is, as soon as possible, so that no new neural pathways are created."
You are being unequivocal. That TMS is a disease or condition without cure.
When you then respond: "It's a process for sure and maybe it would be considered "incurable" however, it IS controllable."
You then shift to using the word "maybe" and then say it is controllable. You cannot have it both ways. If you do not know if something is incurable or not, how can you determine that it "IS controllable"?
This quote of yours I can understand and I believe it underscores just what I have been referring to: "I feel like often we are so consumed with this syndrome and are so consumed with fixing ourselves that it's all we focus on which can be just as damaging. "
As I see it it is the theory that is at fault for enabling that sort of feeling and thinking to occur, not the person.
Thank you for considering what I have to say.
bluesboy63
Well known member
Hodini, I promise to address this lengthy reply with answers to the best of my ability. My ability being my experiences with this for the better part of 15 years. In no way am I a TMS therapist and if I come off that way, I apologize. I can again only pull from my extensive research and real life examples of how this effects me. I welcome any of the therapists on here to give expert opinion. I am, however, walking out the door to go to a baseball game on this beautiful night in Austin Texas. I PROMISE to address this tomorrow when I have time to go over each point and give it the response it deserves. To not do that would negate any credibility I have with my posts.
bluesboy63
Well known member
Hodini, I have spent substantial time reading through all the the posts you have put up here since you became a member. You are obviously very skeptical, which is fine, however, I'm not going to spend a ton of time trying to convince you of anything. I doubt that's what you're looking for anyway. Let me begin by saying that I am not a faith guy. I am an Atheist and the only reason I out myself about that is to say that I'm the type of person that requires proof, facts and real examples, not blind faith. The belief in the "theory" of TMS is very personal for me, since from the first time opening a Sarno book, it was like he had been following me around my whole life. I read the cases he spoke about in Healing Back Pain as well as the letters of thanks explaining their pain and I immediately knew I was not alone. From there, I read The Mindbody Prescription and became convinced to the point that it was no longer a "theory" to me, it was fact. When I get on this forum and do a search for something random that I feel is TMS related and page after page of posts come up with people sharing stories that I could have written myself, it's powerful. I'll give you this, when you meet someone, or know someone that is textbook TMS, you have to go about it gently if you're going to try and help them. It sounds crazy, it sounds cult like and it's completely unbelievable to someone that is in serious pain but I've found that if you want someone to see the light, you can't shine a spotlight in their eyes. You have to light a candle and let them make their own decision whether to blow it out or not. I feel like you really want to blow that candle out, which is fine. This forum is for support, it helps a lot of people, no one makes money off of it, Healing back Pain is not Dianetics. I do hope you stay, take the time to read the books, learn from other's experiences, and make use of the incredible resources here. You are very well written, and once you are on board, if it works for you, you'll be a huge asset to this community. Now I'll address a few of the direct comments made.
In my other post, I was merely making mention of the myriad of questions about TMS that go unanswered, or many times are answered in double talk or by saying "read X book and it will explain everything.
The books are a critical part of understanding this. Also, from book one to book four, the theory evolves as Dr. Sarno gained knowledge. If you can't make the effort to read what we all did and find out if it pertains to you, then it's hard to have an informed conversation. There are a ton of people on here that simply want us to give them the Cliff Notes version. It doesn't work that way.
It has been said that the majority of people with TMS have "perfectionist" personalities. Without going into the veracity of the statement, I read that you considered yourself having that type of personality.
Much about the perfectionist personality and how it is relevant in the realm of TMS is explained in detail in the books. For me the perfectionism equates to creating high expectations that can never be met. This causes negative thinking which for me is very damaging and causes much stress. I know where it comes from, I know how I got wired this way and I doubt that it's going to change. I can however recognize it for what it is and tell myself "you can't control your thoughts, you can control your reaction". I feel that the perfectionist trait causes more anxiety than pain and anxiety has been with me since I was a child. I do also feel that anxiety is one of the main components of TMS, as much as pain is so yes, I consider anxiety a symptom of TMS. Alan has a printable sheet on here about recognizing destructive behaviors. There are three columns of thoughts, Critical Thoughts, Pressure Thoughts, and Fear Thoughts. The task is to write down in the proper column every time you have one of those thoughts. I found that nearly EVERY one of my thoughts needs to be written down! Now that is obviously a huge problem, one that I can now see, and work on changing. I've found that in my unconscious search for perfection, it's easier to look at myself as "perfectly imperfect".
I would like to know from you, just how you approach "not caring about your pain", when Alan speaks of "authentic indifference", having to self determine if pain is coming from some structural situation, or, mental process, or, something simply out of reach of your understanding at the moment.
I know you've been looking for the answer to this "authentic indifference" and I'm sorry but I can't give it to you. Hopefully Alan will at some point if he feels it's necessary. What I can tell you is that this was never meant to be a "one size fits all" fix. Or any kind of fix at all for that matter. He calls it "recovery", not "cure". The part of not caring about your pain has never worked for me personally. My neural pathways are too strong from growing for 40+ years. I do however find it works for me in this respect...I don't say "I don't care about the pain", I tell myself that if this is what it is, then I have no choice but to be fine with it. By enforcing the thought pattern that you are not going not let it bother you, you are weakening it's power of distraction. I'll also refer to the video on one of the first 5 days or so. The one where Alan talked the gal with neck pain through the process. When he points out that if there were something structurally wrong with you, it would hurt all the time, now that's powerful. When we're in pain, anxiety riddled, or any other form of TMS symptom, we can't see the forest for the trees. It's easy to forget the little things like that and we need to be able to have that in our back pocket as a reminder.
The last thing I want to address is the incurable aspect of this. Is TMS the only thing that may be incurable but controllable?? I don't understand the problem there. Is there a blood test that one can take to prove that they have TMS?? Obviously not but neither is there one to prove depression or anxiety, yet we accept the diagnosis based on issues we are having, the way we are feeling, etc. The brain is a powerful thing. Once thoughts are there they can't be removed but they can be dealt with in a healthy manner. When you get on a plane it could crash. There is a very slight chance that it will crash, but it will at least be in the back of nearly every passengers mind whether they admit it or not. Why?? Because they've seen it happen. To the brain that causes a real possibility, one way more prevalent than what is reality. Is there a cure for this, no, it's implanted into our mind. Can it be controlled?? Of course. Patients with HIV have an incurable disease but for the most part it is now controllable. Is it better for them to not even try and control it, just let it run it's course? I guess it comes down to your view of curable. Again, that is very subjective since some on here would consider themselves "cured" simply because they have the tools to control it. The other option of living a life in pain without searching tirelessly for an answer is completely foreign to me. Call it my need to know...
hodini
Peer Supporter
BB Thanks much for your informative reply! I appreciate your consideration of my views and thoughts. Obviously, you have given this subject much in depth thought and consideration. Hopefully, I have not extinguished anyones candle as that was not my intent but I can see how that could occur. I would like to respond to you but given that you brought up that separating some of the threads of this fabric might be detrimental to some, if you think it would be more appropriate to continue our discussion via pm, let me know. Thanks again!
bluesboy63
Well known member
Feel free to PM me any time. I get genuine joy from knowing I'm helping to make a difference in someone. The first step though is to read the books. You need an understanding of where the pain started and a good reference point as to if you can fully believe that TMS could be a real thing. I can't put that in you, no one can. Something in there will trigger it if it's you...not everyone has TMS. I also stress the "could be a real thing" part. That's all you need to get going, not a baptism into TMS. Personally, I read the first book (very dry reading, very clinical, you can actually skip this one IMO), I read the second book Mind Over Back Pain several times (I have dog eared it to death), I read #3 The Mindbody Prescription (my favorite) and the fourth the Divided Mind I read in pieces by searching out answers to questions I had. I knew enough about the process by book 4 to be able to just skim it for information but the very interesting part is how the theory evolved over the course of years. Even Dr. Sarno had no idea how this would progress and how many lives he would change. If you can, go back through my posts and find where I talked about TMS shifting from Tension Myositis Syndrome in it's initial stages to The Mindbody Syndrome once the pain cycle is set in place. I think some of your skepticism comes from following this course first and using it as a platform for understanding. It's like putting the cart before the horse. Most all that were heaping praise on Alan for this have dealt with this for a long time and saw this as a beautiful transition into the next steps of understanding. That's probably why it seemed way too simplistic and childlike in it's methods for you. Certainly understandable...