What if symptoms are not caused by anger or emotions?

[Lee222]

For me my symptoms just come when I do anything ambitious.

A new job, promotion at work, college course, a new challenging hobby, working two jobs etc

Those are literally the only times I get symptoms.

I find life boring, but the second I step out of that boredom, the symptoms come, my body shuts down and I can barely function.

All this stuff about anger and emotions etc, means literally nothing to me and has always done me more harm good, seems to be a lot of connection and stressful for zero benefit

 

[Rabscuttle]

Sarno posited a theory that this is about repressed rage and eventually other repressed emotions. If anyone is telling you that that is the end all be all of chronic symptoms then you should be skeptical. Sarno, who was a doctor and scientist, would be questionable of such dogmatic people. Many things are at play here in regards to generation and continuation of chronic symptoms.

you’ve been at this for years right? Where do you think you’re struggling, how do you speak to yourself what are your thoughts like? You say you find life boring. What do you enjoy? Do you have hobbies? What are your views on life and meaning as a whole? Do you have any aspects of spirituality in your life, belief in anything bigger than yourself? Do you find yourself to be nihilistic, see reality as a slog and pointless?

It’s also entirely possible that you’re dealing with lots of conditioned responses after years of cfs (I think that’s your symptom, going off memory…) and your brain just shuts you down at any form of exertion. How much do you meaningfully challenge the symptoms and respond well when they escalate? Or are you just reverting to thoughts of I’m missing something, or this is all wrong and it’s just about repressed emotions and therefore makes no sense etc.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

All this stuff about anger and emotions etc, means literally nothing to me and has always done me more harm good,

If you do that work and it doesn't improve symptoms - then I understand that. But to say it's done more harm than good does confuse me because the work should be beneficial regardless (i.e. it has intrinsic benefit beyond its impact on pain).

The focus on anger and other emotions is about validating your own emotions and your own experiences. It's mainly an exercise in self-compassion and self-care. It's the same as therapy - and for me whilst talk therapy didn't help my symptoms, it gave me benefit in other ways. Are you talking about the structural program here and have you done that? Because that shouldn't make you worse (symptoms may spike in response to the work, but if anything that proves that it is TMS and that you are on to something).

For me my symptoms just come when I do anything ambitious.

That makes sense from a TMS perspective as it could be an expression of your fear. Do you tend to put a lot of pressure on yourself when it comes to these pursuits? Your body may be shutting down in response to that.

 

[Lee222]

you’ve been at this for years right? Where do you think you’re struggling, how do you speak to yourself what are your thoughts like? You say you find life boring. What do you enjoy? Do you have hobbies? What are your views on life and meaning as a whole? Do you have any aspects of spirituality in your life, belief in anything bigger than yourself? Do you find yourself to be nihilistic, see reality as a slog and pointless?

.

I don't really speak to myself, I just get symptoms when I do anything challenging or show any ambitions, I would love life but my symptoms when I have any sort of stress are so extreme that it's impossible to function.

Life is a slog because I get symptoms when I do anything productive, if It wasn't for that I'd love life, I believe in God but I can take it or leave it really

 

[Lee222]

If you do that work and it doesn't improve symptoms - then I understand that. But to say it's done more harm than good does confuse me because the work should be beneficial regardless (i.e. it has intrinsic benefit beyond its impact on pain).

The focus on anger and other emotions is about validating your own emotions and your own experiences. It's mainly an exercise in self-compassion and self-care. It's the same as therapy - and for me whilst talk therapy didn't help my symptoms, it gave me benefit in other ways. Are you talking about the structural program here and have you done that? Because that shouldn't make you worse (symptoms may spike in response to the work, but if anything that proves that it is TMS and that you are on to something).



That makes sense from a TMS perspective as it could be an expression of your fear. Do you tend to put a lot of pressure on yourself when it comes to these pursuits? Your body may be shutting down in response to that.

I spent years, learning to cry, feel fear, feel anger, I honestly regret it, nothing positive came from it.

I don't think i put pressure on me, I can avoid symptoms if I lead a stress free boring life, but the second I step out of that, the symptoms come and it's game over for me really

 

[Rabscuttle]

I don't really speak to myself, I just get symptoms when I do anything challenging or show any ambitions, I would love life but my symptoms when I have any sort of stress are so extreme that it's impossible to function.

Life is a slog because I get symptoms when I do anything productive, if It wasn't for that I'd love life, I believe in God but I can take it or leave it really

So what’s going on in your head on a day to day basis?

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I spent years, learning to cry, feel fear, feel anger, I honestly regret it, nothing positive came from it.

Is it not a positive thing to feel anger? It's a natural human emotion and denying it only leads to suppression. To me it would only be viewed as a negative thing if you were judging yourself for it (which I used to do and was a big problem). Feeling the way you truly feel is never a bad thing unless you think you don't deserve to feel that way.

Put another way, if nothing positive came from feeling the anger (I don't mean creating anger artificially but feeling genuine anger that you had stored) does that mean that you'd rather suppress anger going forward compared to feeling it?

 

[Lee222]

Is it not a positive thing to feel anger? It's a natural human emotion and denying it only leads to suppression. To me it would only be viewed as a negative thing if you were judging yourself for it (which I used to do and was a big problem). Feeling the way you truly feel is never a bad thing unless you think you don't deserve to feel that way.

Put another way, if nothing positive came from feeling the anger (I don't mean creating anger artificially but feeling genuine anger that you had stored) does that mean that you'd rather suppress anger going forward compared to feeling it?

I honestly don't find it hard to feel angry, I don't feel like it's something I need to learn , I suppose anger is good in the right situation, I don't believe I supress, I'm better with anger than most people I know, I just get symptoms when I do too much

A lot of therapy seems to focus on boundaries and stuff like that, but from what I've seen, I've got better boundaries than 90 % people what I've met

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I honestly don't find it hard to feel angry, I don't feel like it's something I need to learn , I suppose anger is good in the right situation, I don't believe I supress, I'm better with anger than most people I know, I just get symptoms when I do too much

A lot of therapy seems to focus on boundaries and stuff like that, but from what I've seen, I've got better boundaries than 90 % people what I've met

That's good. The reason this kind of work is beneficial is because a lot of people judge themselves for being angry (it's learning to be comfortable with your emotions) - but if you're already fully comfortable with your full emotional range then that's an advantage. I wouldn't necessarily waste energy regretting it, there's nothing wrong with feeling your emotions (even if you already had the skill that the practice was trying to develop - I wouldn't consider it as having done you any harm, it's just practice (granted perhaps that you didn't need) at something you were already good at).

 

[Time2be]

Maybe your nerve system has learned to react to challenges in life (like a second job or a giving a course) with being sensitized. And this can lead to numerous symptoms. I love my work, but when I have a challenging task my pelvic floor muscles will clench and I get symptoms of an UTI. I learned that the way I looked at the tasks and the pressure I put on me is activating my nerve system. This is a learned reaction and it takes time to rewind. I am still feeling the pressure I put on myself. But it was difficult for me to understand and accept this.

 

[Lee222]

Maybe your nerve system has learned to react to challenges in life (like a second job or a giving a course) with being sensitized. And this can lead to numerous symptoms. I love my work, but when I have a challenging task my pelvic floor muscles will clench and I get symptoms of an UTI. I learned that the way I looked at the tasks and the pressure I put on me is activating my nerve system. This is a learned reaction and it takes time to rewind. I am still feeling the pressure I put on myself. But it was difficult for me to understand and accept this.

Maybe that's my root cause, but I don't know how to deal with it, I've tried breathing exercises but I didn't enjoy them

The therapists from experience seem to subtly blame me and imply that I'm not ready to get better but I'm not buying that, that's not true

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

Maybe that's my root cause,

Highly likely based on this trigger I'd say, especially if you've been through circumstances in the past which have meant that change was labelled as dangerous (internally by your nervous system).

 

[Time2be]

Lee222, ah that’s the question, how to change this! I cannot give you a good answer, I am afraid. I am still struggling. What I learned: to accept the pain and that often makes to go away after a initial phase. The next: do I really like the task? Sometimes it is more prestige than pleasure. Of course, there are duties. But when there are too many disliked duties, including private stress (like with my parents who suffer from dementia), my nervous system snaps. Emotionally I feel burn out, like being caved in, without a prospect of better future. As I said, multiple factors putting pressure on me for a prolonged time. Taking time to do nothing is really important, although it feels awful in the beginning.

 

[Rabscuttle]

Maybe that's my root cause, but I don't know how to deal with it, I've tried breathing exercises but I didn't enjoy them

The therapists from experience seem to subtly blame me and imply that I'm not ready to get better but I'm not buying that, that's not true

I mean, I’m sorry to be an ass, but I don’t really think they’re that far off. You come here every few weeks to post essentially the same thing, I’m feeling emotions but it’s not working, is it just about repressed emotions, etc. it’s essentially a state of learned helplessness and it seems like you care more about spiting the process than actually trying to work on yourself not in the context of trying to recover from chronic symptoms.

you didn’t respond to my comment so I’ll just project what I think and continue to maybe be an asshole. You don’t speak to yourself? So what’s your inner day like, just endless dooming about your symptoms, endlessly trying to find a solution, endlessly looking for something that probably isn’t the issue and then just thinking none of this applies to you. Maybe it’s time to actually start building something resembling a functioning relationship with yourself, not to recover but because whether you like it or not you’re stuck with yourself for however many years you’ll be here. Maybe some positive self talk maybe some joy. Anytime I see people with years of symptoms who say if I didn’t have them I’d love life I actually think they’re either delusional or full of shit. None of this is occurring in a vacuum. There’s some essence of dysfunction with your world. Again I just think you’re utterly detached from your inner world.

which I why in the past, I’ve brought up spirituality and meditation to you. Developing some connection with yourself, and god or the universe or your higher self or whatever, it doesn’t have to be in the context of religion, just shedding some of the pessimism and negativity bias you’ve accumulated that’s genuinely infecting your spirit and soul. Learning to actually like or ideally love yourself. Believing that there’s more to reality than just this physical life with these physical symptoms and shittiness. You tried breathing exercises and didn’t like them, would that be your approach to meditation, “I don’t like this” “this isn’t helping” or are you willing to give things a bit of a chance and see where they take you, again not in the context of improving your situation but in terms of becoming a better version of yourself. There are plenty of things we do that are good for us that we don’t like. Does everyone like drinking water, or brushing their teeth or washing their hands after the bathroom. Honestly I think you need to just mature a bit in your process towards all this.

I’m being blunt and a dick, well aware. But you should reread your posts here and I think you’ll get a very clear answer for why your current reality is the way it is.

 

[Lee222]

I mean, I’m sorry to be an ass, but I don’t really think they’re that far off. You come here every few weeks to post essentially the same thing, I’m feeling emotions but it’s not working, is it just about repressed emotions, etc. it’s essentially a state of learned helplessness and it seems like you care more about spiting the process than actually trying to work on yourself not in the context of trying to recover from chronic symptoms.

you didn’t respond to my comment so I’ll just project what I think and continue to maybe be an asshole. You don’t speak to yourself? So what’s your inner day like, just endless dooming about your symptoms, endlessly trying to find a solution, endlessly looking for something that probably isn’t the issue and then just thinking none of this applies to you. Maybe it’s time to actually start building something resembling a functioning relationship with yourself, not to recover but because whether you like it or not you’re stuck with yourself for however many years you’ll be here. Maybe some positive self talk maybe some joy. Anytime I see people with years of symptoms who say if I didn’t have them I’d love life I actually think they’re either delusional or full of shit. None of this is occurring in a vacuum. There’s some essence of dysfunction with your world. Again I just think you’re utterly detached from your inner world.

which I why in the past, I’ve brought up spirituality and meditation to you. Developing some connection with yourself, and god or the universe or your higher self or whatever, it doesn’t have to be in the context of religion, just shedding some of the pessimism and negativity bias you’ve accumulated that’s genuinely infecting your spirit and soul. Learning to actually like or ideally love yourself. Believing that there’s more to reality than just this physical life with these physical symptoms and shittiness. You tried breathing exercises and didn’t like them, would that be your approach to meditation, “I don’t like this” “this isn’t helping” or are you willing to give things a bit of a chance and see where they take you, again not in the context of improving your situation but in terms of becoming a better version of yourself. There are plenty of things we do that are good for us that we don’t like. Does everyone like drinking water, or brushing their teeth or washing their hands after the bathroom. Honestly I think you need to just mature a bit in your process towards all this.

I’m being blunt and a dick, well aware. But you should reread your posts here and I think you’ll get a very clear answer for why your current reality is the way it is.

I work as much as I can but I crash.

The problem with dickheads like you is when the therapy doesn't work, you can't seem to accept that, you have a need to blame the patient, you'd be better off accepting it doesn't work for everyone

 

[Rabscuttle]

I work as much as I can but I crash.

The problem with dickheads like you is when the therapy doesn't work, you can't seem to accept that, you have a need to blame the patient, you'd be better off accepting it doesn't work for everyone

nothing I said had anything to do with therapy Lee, it had to do with your approach to the recovery process. And a good therapist should absolutely be calling you out. Or do you think they should just be a voice recorder that you vent to?

you need a major inner adjustment, but yeah, I honestly doubt you’ve come close to a rock bottom so it is what it is.

 

[Lee222]

I've always been polite to therapists but I tend to crash out with stress quite quickly

 

[Rabscuttle]

I wish you luck Lee. I don’t know if there’s a language gap or something else, but I’m stepping away from this thread and will ignore your future ones. You deserve better, and I’m sorry for your years of symptoms. But it’s very clear we’re both wasting our time.

 

[Cactusflower]

"A new job, promotion at work, college course, a new challenging hobby, working two jobs etc

Those are literally the only times I get symptoms."

To me this is absolute proof that there is emotional stuff at work here. However, that said, perhaps you need to step back from the emotional work. I think there is a point, which Sarno makes in his suggestions of "getting back to life" that we need to incorporate the work into our daily life, belief, and the way we operate taking into consideration the personality traits he outlines.

What does "boredom" entail for you? You mention only things like a "Challenging" new hobby and work or study. None of these things truly sound fun. They sound like pressure. Can you mix things up with "Fun" stuff - it's OK that the fun is mindless or relaxing (as much as it can be right now) or have no meaning. No accomplishment, no striving, no bettering yourself, no learning something new as in knowledge. In essence, life is a balance. Check your balance. Maybe even write a list of stuff that is triggering vs. stuff that is "boring".
Does your mind always want to do the stuff that is "Unsafe" - triggering. Like a drive to do these things. Some TMS writers/personalities (whatever you want to call them) find there is an addictive quality to a nervous system in hyperdrive. Since the mind naturally wants to be a little more negative it can be a challenge to enjoy the quiet moments. You might actually find you really hate those quiet times. What is attached to the boredom? How do you feel about yourself in those moments? I know my mind LOVES to be busy and feel like it's always accomplishing ANYTHING. It has strong emotional attachments to the fact that I was never taught or shown that love is unconditional. There were always conditions and I was trained that showing love in return meant "doing" (to please someone else). Although I can meditate, sitting and reading a book at home is difficult. When I go on vacation or am away from home, I can read for hours! But at home I must "accomplish".
Perhaps this kind of mind churning is similar for you.
What do I do about it?
NOTHING. I don't worry about it. I get symptoms and I don't worry about them. They are a pain in the as* but I'm not trying to avoid or fix them. Sure, like you I absolutely notice what the triggers are (which I think is a fantastic observation on your part) - but I also try to recognize that there is an emotional component and a mindset that is driving them. What is the work? Compassion. Simply recognizing that it's it's there and not trying to fix it or force it. I don't really dig at the emotional stuff because I already know what it is and I know that over time this stuff softens when you simply recognize it's there.
I am also very aware of the things I might think are absolutes like thinking there might absolutely be no emotional stuff behind things - for myself, that's simply a sign of resistance. Softening the black and white thinking around it and opening to the possibility that there might (@Rabscuttle has written quite a bit about this softening towards old belief patterns) has really made change.

 

[Lee222]

"A new job, promotion at work, college course, a new challenging hobby, working two jobs etc

Those are literally the only times I get symptoms."

To me this is absolute proof that there is emotional stuff at work here. However, that said, perhaps you need to step back from the emotional work. I think there is a point, which Sarno makes in his suggestions of "getting back to life" that we need to incorporate the work into our daily life, belief, and the way we operate taking into consideration the personality traits he outlines.

What does "boredom" entail for you? You mention only things like a "Challenging" new hobby and work or study. None of these things truly sound fun. They sound like pressure. Can you mix things up with "Fun" stuff - it's OK that the fun is mindless or relaxing (as much as it can be right now) or have no meaning. No accomplishment, no striving, no bettering yourself, no learning something new as in knowledge. In essence, life is a balance. Check your balance. Maybe even write a list of stuff that is triggering vs. stuff that is "boring".
Does your mind always want to do the stuff that is "Unsafe" - triggering. Like a drive to do these things. Some TMS writers/personalities (whatever you want to call them) find there is an addictive quality to a nervous system in hyperdrive. Since the mind naturally wants to be a little more negative it can be a challenge to enjoy the quiet moments. You might actually find you really hate those quiet times. What is attached to the boredom? How do you feel about yourself in those moments? I know my mind LOVES to be busy and feel like it's always accomplishing ANYTHING. It has strong emotional attachments to the fact that I was never taught or shown that love is unconditional. There were always conditions and I was trained that showing love in return meant "doing" (to please someone else). Although I can meditate, sitting and reading a book at home is difficult. When I go on vacation or am away from home, I can read for hours! But at home I must "accomplish".
Perhaps this kind of mind churning is similar for you.
What do I do about it?
NOTHING. I don't worry about it. I get symptoms and I don't worry about them. They are a pain in the as* but I'm not trying to avoid or fix them. Sure, like you I absolutely notice what the triggers are (which I think is a fantastic observation on your part) - but I also try to recognize that there is an emotional component and a mindset that is driving them. What is the work? Compassion. Simply recognizing that it's it's there and not trying to fix it or force it. I don't really dig at the emotional stuff because I already know what it is and I know that over time this stuff softens when you simply recognize it's there.
I am also very aware of the things I might think are absolutes like thinking there might absolutely be no emotional stuff behind things - for myself, that's simply a sign of resistance. Softening the black and white thinking around it and opening to the possibility that there might (@Rabscuttle has written quite a bit about this softening towards old belief patterns) has really made change.

My symptoms go away if I just chill out at home and do nothing, it's just when I do anything stressful the symptoms come , the stress doesn't pass through me though, it doesn't leave.

For example, taking on two jobs made me feel stressed, but that was ten years ago, I still feel that stress 24/7 today , even though I only have one job