I couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.
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SteveO's New Book : "BACK PAIN PERMANENT HEALING"
- Thread starter Tennis Tom
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I couldn't have said it any better. Thank you.
Sometimes, at least in my experience, doing something semi-active like breathing exercises can be more effective than "floating" in trying to cope with overwhelming feelings of anxiety/panic. They probably also have the physiological advantage of correcting a carbon dioxide buildup from overbreathing. People having panic attacks tend to believe they can't breathe, but most of the time they are in fact breathing too rapidly and shallowly.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
I've had two panic attacks about ten years apart--nothing like thinking you are having a heart-attack, which a panic attack for me feels like, to make you panicky. They resulted in a visit to the my doc for a stress-treadmill EKG, and a midnight run to the ER for the second one. When my doc said it wan't a heart-attack and OK'ed me to climb Everest if I wanted to I felt GREATLY relieved. He also gave me an RX for Xanax, recognizing the "mental" component and told me to take one next time I felt panicky. I've only taken half of one of those in about fifteen years, but they're in the medicine cabinet just in case.
The second one I had about ten years later, the kindly ER doc comforted me that it wasn't a heart-attack and benign chest pain was the second most common cause for ER visits next to bleeds caused by overuse of NSAIDS, which I've also had due to having taken Aleves by the handful. These two panic attacks have taught me not to panic because I feel TMS chest pain. Now that I treat it as another TMS symptom, I no longer have them--but that's not to say as I age, and have chest pain in another decade I won't panic and think it's a heart-attack.
The second one I had about ten years later, the kindly ER doc comforted me that it wasn't a heart-attack and benign chest pain was the second most common cause for ER visits next to bleeds caused by overuse of NSAIDS, which I've also had due to having taken Aleves by the handful. These two panic attacks have taught me not to panic because I feel TMS chest pain. Now that I treat it as another TMS symptom, I no longer have them--but that's not to say as I age, and have chest pain in another decade I won't panic and think it's a heart-attack.
JanAtheCPA
Beloved Grand Eagle
Renee, I know that this is one of the hardest things to accomplish - but the goal, if you can wrap your head around it intellectually, without engaging your emotions, is to recognize that those negative messages "Oh my god, what if I pass out and make a fool of myself?!!!!!!!????!?!??!) is your negative brain trying to protect you. Except that your brain is still living in a world with sabre-tooth tigers, where the danger of death was the reality. Sitting in the front row of a room full of people is simply not a life-or-death issue. YOU have to be willing to convince your primitive brain that you are not actually in any danger.
This is a major mind shift, because your brain WANTS you to be scanning the horizon for danger at all times. The reality, unless you live in Syria or some other actually dangerous place (it does not sound like you do) is that you are NOT in danger. Convince yourself, then convince your brain. Once you "get" this, your life will change. Completely. I know, because mine did.
This is a major mind shift, because your brain WANTS you to be scanning the horizon for danger at all times. The reality, unless you live in Syria or some other actually dangerous place (it does not sound like you do) is that you are NOT in danger. Convince yourself, then convince your brain. Once you "get" this, your life will change. Completely. I know, because mine did.
JanAtheCPA
Beloved Grand Eagle
Taking slow deep breaths is extremely helpful. Perhaps it's physiological, perhaps it reminds you to unclench, perhaps it's a mindfulness exercise, or perhaps it's just a different distraction. It's an ages-old technique that is simple and works great.
There is a 4-7-8 ancient technique that Andrew Weil describes in one of his books and that I am sure is online that I like a lot. Also alternate nostril breathing.
I misspoke before when one breathes too rapidly one loses, not builds up, CO2. It's why breathing into a paper bag is sometimes recommended.
I misspoke before when one breathes too rapidly one loses, not builds up, CO2. It's why breathing into a paper bag is sometimes recommended.
Welcome to the forum
I have seen this previously, I think the biggest difference between this technique and mindfulness, is that mindfulness promotes a sense of 'being' rather than focusing on the physical and trying to achieve extra levels of oxygen. The latter should be a natural byproduct of a relaxed emotional state.
For anyone not familiar with this method:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buteyko_method (Buteyko method - Wikipedia)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B00V3KJWN2/ref=mp_s_a_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478425304&sr=8-2-spell&pi=AC_SX280_SY350_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=butyeko (The Oxygen Advantage: The simple, scientifically proven breathing technique that will revolutionise your health and fitness:Amazon.co.uk:Kindle Store)
No I do not live in Syria or any other dangerous place. This sounds like you are mocking me. I know I'm not in danger for my life when I experience these attacks. That would make sense and my fear makes no sense. Which is actually more frightening to me than death. It sounds like you have experienced anxiety but not panic attacks. Big difference.
I am certain Jan was not trying to mock you she only tries to be compassionate and helpful. And while I don't know her own experience, I myself have experienced panic attacks of the type you have had and they definitely can be so strong as to overcome all rationality. Telling yourself you're OK is not going to make them go away, at least not for me. It's not like having even significant pain which is why I think it's wrong to equate panic attacks, or for that matter severe anxiety, with TMS.
JanAtheCPA
Beloved Grand Eagle
I apologize, Renee, that certainly wasn't what I thought I was doing, but I can see how it reads that way. In trying to make the point that our primitive brains don't operate effectively in today's very safe world, I simply wanted to recognize that there are still parts of the world in which people do not experience safety.
I spent my entire life with anxiety, which got worse as I approached age 60, which is when I started experiencing panic attacks and emerging depression. I was in serious danger of becoming housebound due to the combination of symptoms, the worst of which were the mental symptoms, because it was so scary to feel like I had completely lost control over my mind. pspa hit the nail on the head when he said that in the grips of a panic attack, your brain is not being rational. I think this is the protective fear mechanism gone wild in those of us who are prone to levels of TMS that become disabling. It's really really hard to consciously reject the irrational and negative messages and change them into something rational and constructive. I remember the bizarre feeling that my rational conscious self was being dragged down into the depths of panic and negativity - it was very visceral, and incredibly frightening.
I spent my entire life with anxiety, which got worse as I approached age 60, which is when I started experiencing panic attacks and emerging depression. I was in serious danger of becoming housebound due to the combination of symptoms, the worst of which were the mental symptoms, because it was so scary to feel like I had completely lost control over my mind. pspa hit the nail on the head when he said that in the grips of a panic attack, your brain is not being rational. I think this is the protective fear mechanism gone wild in those of us who are prone to levels of TMS that become disabling. It's really really hard to consciously reject the irrational and negative messages and change them into something rational and constructive. I remember the bizarre feeling that my rational conscious self was being dragged down into the depths of panic and negativity - it was very visceral, and incredibly frightening.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
This is incorrect information, Dr. Sarno says anxiety IS an AFFECTIVE TMS symptom. Now that I understand panic attacks are a TMS symptom, I no longer fear them.
I know what Dr. Sarno says, Tom. He isn't omniscient and he isn't an expert in anxiety disorders. And this is an area of opinion and theory, not fact. You can't prove anxiety is a TMS symptom, can you? So my opinion is not incorrect information, it's an opinion that in one respect disagrees with Dr. Sarno's opinion. And yes, I can predict your "this is a TMS forum" response. Been there done that.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
The last thing Jan was doing was mocking you. The TMS gremlin of your sub-c is working hard to derail your healing, it's making you misconstrue the messages.
From page 6 of SteveO's new book: "They impugn the motives of those who are helping people heal."
It's the same gremlin that passes out false pains for defense mechanism distractions. But don't take offense to this, it's not your you-you--it's your un-u gremlin doing this because it thinks it's going to protect you from feeling the real pain--the emotional pain--it doesn't want you to face it head-on. Dr. Sarno preaches to do otherwise.
Daily Reminder : #11 I intend to be in control--not my subconscious mind.
Jan took time out to craft you about a half dozen well thought out posts--for free--spank your TMS gremlin for thinking such thoughts.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
Pspa, you're a mind reader, here we go, I'll quote from SteveO's book: page 6,
"They search for discrepancies in the TMS materials to find something to dispute, to exclude themselves as potential candidates for healing, often proclaiming, "Not everything is TMS!"
I personally believe Dr. Sarno IS omnicient (did I spell that right?), and is long overdue for HIS Noble Prize. It would be a disservice to him not to get it in his lifetime for the recognition of his great achievement to psychosomatic medicine and the tens of thousands and eventually millions of people whose bodily pains he will banish and minds he will make whole--Maybe Bob Dylan can give him his since he doesn't seem to want it so much.
Pspa, it may be time for you to write your own book of healing, since you disagree with so much of the fundamental tenents of the Good Doctor's.
Dr. Sarno's theories, at their core, are about the psychogenic origin of chronic pain. I don't find quibbles about the details meaningful, e.g. is pain caused by reduced blood flow or something else. I fully embrace what Dave said about such quibbles on that other forum, which I have quoted a couple of times.
When people start attributing other conditions and diseases to TMS, particularly in the more literal sense as defined by Dr. Sarno and not as a generic term for anything with psychogenic roots, then yes I am less certain and more skeptical, and I think the proponents are on shakier and more speculative ground. For example, in the case of panic attacks which I know all too well, I don't believe that my mind has created conditions so horrible I would in the moment welcome death as a distraction to prevent me from feeling some even more painful emotion. That doesn't make sense to me. But again, that's just my opinion, and your mileage and opinion may vary and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.
Do I believe that emotions play a role in conditions beyond chronic pain? Absolutely. But I think that relationship is probably varying and complex.
When people start attributing other conditions and diseases to TMS, particularly in the more literal sense as defined by Dr. Sarno and not as a generic term for anything with psychogenic roots, then yes I am less certain and more skeptical, and I think the proponents are on shakier and more speculative ground. For example, in the case of panic attacks which I know all too well, I don't believe that my mind has created conditions so horrible I would in the moment welcome death as a distraction to prevent me from feeling some even more painful emotion. That doesn't make sense to me. But again, that's just my opinion, and your mileage and opinion may vary and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong.
Do I believe that emotions play a role in conditions beyond chronic pain? Absolutely. But I think that relationship is probably varying and complex.
Thank you for the apology Jan. The phrase that you put in parenthesis sounded especially sarcastic to me, and I reacted even though I've always known your responses to be very kind and helpful. I apologize for misunderstanding.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
page 6,
The number one sign that a person is not ready to heal is when they trash the TMS message. Other common signs that they are not quite ready are evidenced by the following actions:
* They throw Healing Back Pain across the room.
* They want free help only.
* They search for discrepancies in the TMS materials to find something to dispute, to exclude themselves as potential candidates for healing, often proclaiming, "Not everything is TMS!"
* They impugn the motives of those who are helping people heal.
* They never act on the TMS information in front of them.
* They ask questions to which they already have the answers.
* They jump from one TMS expert to another.
* They hear but they don't listen.
The number one sign that a person is not ready to heal is when they trash the TMS message. Other common signs that they are not quite ready are evidenced by the following actions:
* They throw Healing Back Pain across the room.
* They want free help only.
* They search for discrepancies in the TMS materials to find something to dispute, to exclude themselves as potential candidates for healing, often proclaiming, "Not everything is TMS!"
* They impugn the motives of those who are helping people heal.
* They never act on the TMS information in front of them.
* They ask questions to which they already have the answers.
* They jump from one TMS expert to another.
* They hear but they don't listen.
Tennis Tom
Beloved Grand Eagle
page 13,
"...we have three dozen studies disclosing that spinal disc "abnormalities" do not cause back pain, and not one single study in the medical literature showing that herniated discs (or other spinal malformations) do cause back pain. And yet, people in general have chosen to believe the unproven side, the very same people who demand scientific proof of TMS."