hodini
Peer Supporter
Hi all,
This being my first post I would like to introduce myself and how I came upon the site. While I have had my own experiences with pain (as I think almost every human being has), I came upon the site doing a routine search on JZ Knight & Ramtha.
I had a family member involved in Ramtha’s School Of Enlightenment [RSE] for over 10 years. During this time they were estranged from me. That part of time in my life was a particularly emotionally painful one for me and one in which I came to terms with several different times in several different ways. The way in which I conducted myself towards my family member had several unintended consequences, some favorable and others not.
While I hesitate to call myself an expert in the area of RSE, I certainly have done much research over the last 20 years, interviewed those who were former and current students at RSE as well as scientists and physicists in order to try and unravel the pseudo science taught there. I have been brought to court by the organization, have written about my views and have been around since the inception of the Enlighten me Free website founded by my friend and former student David McCarthy whom in his dedication to bringing the truth to light suffered greatly in doing so, emotionally, physically, and financially.
I am glad to see that his diligence and efforts have been useful to those who are discovering the roots of Joe Dispenza’s knowledge, philosophy, and mindset.
I do not normally spend a lot of time writing on websites. However, since I stumbled across yours I would like to put my two cents in (may seem more like $1,000 !)
I know some of what I may have to say might be a bit like farting at the Queens dining table, but I would like to say right off that my intentions are not to demean, denigrate, look down upon, attack anyone here on the site personally.
My intention is, hopefully, to discuss in a civil manner what I see as some of the similarities in TSM’s philosophy and RSE’s. I acknowledge that I am quite unfamiliar with TSM but have spent several hours reading around the site and am simply going to give my impressions which of course could be mistaken.
From what I have read, the majority of participants here are quite educated, articulate, well meaning, wanting to better themselves and others and willing to go “outside of the box” as I have heard some of you express to do so. The afore mentioned attributes are admirable and I feel essential for our human society to evolve in a positive manner. This make-up of personalities however is almost identical to those in RSE. As was Joe Dispenza’s at the time of his participation at RSE though now it appears he is on the money train.
Embedded in RSE’s philosophy at it’s core is the concept that one creates their own reality. While the upside of that would be that one should ideally have control over their health, wealth, and state of well being, when those conditions are not favorable for them, they only have themselves to hold accountable. I feel this is a false narrative and I will attempt to explain why. When this type of philosophy is put into practice it leads to a diminished capability of critically examining ones true circumstances. This is not to say that it is ever possible to obtain a 100% “true” perception.
In that sense, I agree with some of the statements about perfectionism and its unintended consequences. In the study of influence and when that influence becomes progressively more extreme Robert Lifton’s seminal work on thought reform in Red China labeled this as “the demand for purity”, a state that is being constantly tried for while being influenced to believe it is attainable. The old carrot and stick.
I have read the phrase and concept of “Outcome Independence” here with regard to an individual being able to control their pain to the ideal point of being pain free. I look at that as one of those demands for purity. That is not to say that it is not possible for one to have positive outcomes on ones perception of pain but it is to say that to be able to “will” ones pain away is just like being able to create ones own reality. This can lead to some potentially dangerous outcomes. Again, I am not saying that there are not techniques for controlling pain, there are and they have been demonstrated in a scientific manner and prove beneficial, but let’s be real, unless one is a masochist, no one wishes, given a choice, to be in a state of pain.
However, pain is part of our survival mechanism. It can be our body’s way of telling us to stay still and not move while our body’s do its fantastic work and repair our injury or illness. If you think about it, what our body’s accomplish every day without us having to think about it is nothing short of miraculous.
Pain, besides being 100% subjective (though psychology shows us that our ability to perceive pain can be mediated for better or worse by our perception of others) happens on a continuum. I found from what I was reading on here the word pain used singely quite often except for descriptions of burning, stinging, etc. I mean, there is the pain of a dull headache, the throbbing pain of a tooth ache, the sharp pain when one stubs their toe or hits their shin, the immobilizing pain of the dentist hitting your nerve when you have not had enough novicain, or, when your nerve in your back gets pinched and you fall to your knees the pain is so great. I could probably go on for a full page with the various types and magnitudes of pain and I am fairly certain most of you whom are here have more experience then myself.
There have been instances where full operations have been done on patients using only hypnosis (which is a controversy in itself, hypnosis that is). The reason why it is not used in practice to my understanding is that ones body “remembers” the pain even though it is not felt and so the goal is to make surgery less invasive, shorter and less traumatic. I digress.
The potential for denying pain, or, “just saying I don’t care”, while it may be effective is that you may be bypassing the body’s ability to communicate with you through pain in order to keep you from re-injury or inhibiting the healing process though your pain free movements.
I am well aware that as human beings having individual pain thresholds we succumb when a certain threshold is breached. We will do almost anything to be out of pain. Hence the pharmaceutical industry’s pedaling of opioids and pain relieve medicine and the unintended consequences to our organs and mental well being.
One of the main reasons confessions or Intel that are coerced are not reliable is because it is a well established fact that when subjected to extreme conditions human beings will do and say almost anything to relieve themselves of the excruciating burden of bearing the pain. Certainly those of you who have been experiencing lasting and chronic pain are experiencing an extreme condition and my heart goes out to you.
A group like RSE uses a variety of tactics and techniques which subtly move one closer to the agenda of JZ and her underlings, meaning $’s though there also appears to be a narcissistic need for control over others which might just suffice for her and that is even more concerning or should be for those involved.
From my reading so far, I am not attempting to put this site or TMS on the same level as her, but at one point she was not like that either, she was a shrewd cable tv marketer, she only found her niche when she discovered the Ramtha persona and monetized it to the detriment of thousands.
Joe Dispenza is fruit of the same tree, only it appears after his and RSE ‘s “What the Bleep fame. He decided to strike out on his own and decided to leave out the lizard people eating humans, the aliens using mind control on all our politicians (could be some truth to that…..LOL) , now that Ramtha has turned pro Trump and has said that Trump will see the “two silver disks accompanying his aircraft so then he will know the truth”, and all the other salacious end of the world, bigotry, and stuff so that Dispenza could reach a broader market.
Please note that throughout all this babble, I have refrained from using the C word (cult) I have deliberately done so because in ones thought processes it is so easy to think, “I know what a cult is….and I’m not in one” The fact is, virtually every “Cult” knows Cults exist, and can recognize them, but can never look in the mirror and apply the dynamics that happen in one to themselves. That is a fascinating phenomenon. Not using the word humanizes the situation and gets closer when one realizes that we all are vulnerable to being involved in a group like that, or, as happens most often, being in a group that does not have all the characteristics of a cult but evolves into one.
I read many recommendations here for Dispenza’s book. I was also glad to see the information and his credentials challenged, as they should be. However, have any of you who recommended his book or passed it along to others be it given, donated or sold considered (here it comes again) that law of unintended consequences of someone picking it up and after reading thinking “why don’t I just go to the source and join RSE” That is the real reason why JZ has not gone after him. While I don’t believe he intends to recruit for anyone but himself, JZ knows she will gain more in recruits then from book royalties or licensing fees. I will leave you with an personal example from experience as to how something like this can happen and how regretfully I wish I had learned my lesson some other way;
I was 16 in the 60’s, I was outside my high school one day and the school was protesting the Vietnam war. I was spouting off my mouth and my ego was being pumped up. Along comes this beautiful gal, in her early 20’s and starts complimenting my ability to speak (looking at her I was speechless). She takes me back to her place for some sex drugs and rock and roll and explains to me that there was going to be a large protest in Washington in a few weeks and her groups name was “Students for Peace” or something to that effect. She asked me if I could organize the high school and that she would provide an office and telephones and transportation. I got together 225 students, we all boarded busses and partied our way down to Washington. Only when we arrived it became obvious that her group was the Socialist Workers Party, not that I knew much about them, but I knew I had been deceived and had in turn provided a convenient front for her and her group. I tried to tell everyone what had occurred but very few claimed to care, they were just having a good time. I have no idea how many lives I may have changed or families I might have affected that day. It still haunts me.
Below are Lifton’s 8 criteria for establishing a totalistic group. Of course, many mainstream groups would fit 4,5,6 of the criteria, it is the combination of all 8 which makes the totalistic dynamic possible. Just so you know.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich�s, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
This being my first post I would like to introduce myself and how I came upon the site. While I have had my own experiences with pain (as I think almost every human being has), I came upon the site doing a routine search on JZ Knight & Ramtha.
I had a family member involved in Ramtha’s School Of Enlightenment [RSE] for over 10 years. During this time they were estranged from me. That part of time in my life was a particularly emotionally painful one for me and one in which I came to terms with several different times in several different ways. The way in which I conducted myself towards my family member had several unintended consequences, some favorable and others not.
While I hesitate to call myself an expert in the area of RSE, I certainly have done much research over the last 20 years, interviewed those who were former and current students at RSE as well as scientists and physicists in order to try and unravel the pseudo science taught there. I have been brought to court by the organization, have written about my views and have been around since the inception of the Enlighten me Free website founded by my friend and former student David McCarthy whom in his dedication to bringing the truth to light suffered greatly in doing so, emotionally, physically, and financially.
I am glad to see that his diligence and efforts have been useful to those who are discovering the roots of Joe Dispenza’s knowledge, philosophy, and mindset.
I do not normally spend a lot of time writing on websites. However, since I stumbled across yours I would like to put my two cents in (may seem more like $1,000 !)
I know some of what I may have to say might be a bit like farting at the Queens dining table, but I would like to say right off that my intentions are not to demean, denigrate, look down upon, attack anyone here on the site personally.
My intention is, hopefully, to discuss in a civil manner what I see as some of the similarities in TSM’s philosophy and RSE’s. I acknowledge that I am quite unfamiliar with TSM but have spent several hours reading around the site and am simply going to give my impressions which of course could be mistaken.
From what I have read, the majority of participants here are quite educated, articulate, well meaning, wanting to better themselves and others and willing to go “outside of the box” as I have heard some of you express to do so. The afore mentioned attributes are admirable and I feel essential for our human society to evolve in a positive manner. This make-up of personalities however is almost identical to those in RSE. As was Joe Dispenza’s at the time of his participation at RSE though now it appears he is on the money train.
Embedded in RSE’s philosophy at it’s core is the concept that one creates their own reality. While the upside of that would be that one should ideally have control over their health, wealth, and state of well being, when those conditions are not favorable for them, they only have themselves to hold accountable. I feel this is a false narrative and I will attempt to explain why. When this type of philosophy is put into practice it leads to a diminished capability of critically examining ones true circumstances. This is not to say that it is ever possible to obtain a 100% “true” perception.
In that sense, I agree with some of the statements about perfectionism and its unintended consequences. In the study of influence and when that influence becomes progressively more extreme Robert Lifton’s seminal work on thought reform in Red China labeled this as “the demand for purity”, a state that is being constantly tried for while being influenced to believe it is attainable. The old carrot and stick.
I have read the phrase and concept of “Outcome Independence” here with regard to an individual being able to control their pain to the ideal point of being pain free. I look at that as one of those demands for purity. That is not to say that it is not possible for one to have positive outcomes on ones perception of pain but it is to say that to be able to “will” ones pain away is just like being able to create ones own reality. This can lead to some potentially dangerous outcomes. Again, I am not saying that there are not techniques for controlling pain, there are and they have been demonstrated in a scientific manner and prove beneficial, but let’s be real, unless one is a masochist, no one wishes, given a choice, to be in a state of pain.
However, pain is part of our survival mechanism. It can be our body’s way of telling us to stay still and not move while our body’s do its fantastic work and repair our injury or illness. If you think about it, what our body’s accomplish every day without us having to think about it is nothing short of miraculous.
Pain, besides being 100% subjective (though psychology shows us that our ability to perceive pain can be mediated for better or worse by our perception of others) happens on a continuum. I found from what I was reading on here the word pain used singely quite often except for descriptions of burning, stinging, etc. I mean, there is the pain of a dull headache, the throbbing pain of a tooth ache, the sharp pain when one stubs their toe or hits their shin, the immobilizing pain of the dentist hitting your nerve when you have not had enough novicain, or, when your nerve in your back gets pinched and you fall to your knees the pain is so great. I could probably go on for a full page with the various types and magnitudes of pain and I am fairly certain most of you whom are here have more experience then myself.
There have been instances where full operations have been done on patients using only hypnosis (which is a controversy in itself, hypnosis that is). The reason why it is not used in practice to my understanding is that ones body “remembers” the pain even though it is not felt and so the goal is to make surgery less invasive, shorter and less traumatic. I digress.
The potential for denying pain, or, “just saying I don’t care”, while it may be effective is that you may be bypassing the body’s ability to communicate with you through pain in order to keep you from re-injury or inhibiting the healing process though your pain free movements.
I am well aware that as human beings having individual pain thresholds we succumb when a certain threshold is breached. We will do almost anything to be out of pain. Hence the pharmaceutical industry’s pedaling of opioids and pain relieve medicine and the unintended consequences to our organs and mental well being.
One of the main reasons confessions or Intel that are coerced are not reliable is because it is a well established fact that when subjected to extreme conditions human beings will do and say almost anything to relieve themselves of the excruciating burden of bearing the pain. Certainly those of you who have been experiencing lasting and chronic pain are experiencing an extreme condition and my heart goes out to you.
A group like RSE uses a variety of tactics and techniques which subtly move one closer to the agenda of JZ and her underlings, meaning $’s though there also appears to be a narcissistic need for control over others which might just suffice for her and that is even more concerning or should be for those involved.
From my reading so far, I am not attempting to put this site or TMS on the same level as her, but at one point she was not like that either, she was a shrewd cable tv marketer, she only found her niche when she discovered the Ramtha persona and monetized it to the detriment of thousands.
Joe Dispenza is fruit of the same tree, only it appears after his and RSE ‘s “What the Bleep fame. He decided to strike out on his own and decided to leave out the lizard people eating humans, the aliens using mind control on all our politicians (could be some truth to that…..LOL) , now that Ramtha has turned pro Trump and has said that Trump will see the “two silver disks accompanying his aircraft so then he will know the truth”, and all the other salacious end of the world, bigotry, and stuff so that Dispenza could reach a broader market.
Please note that throughout all this babble, I have refrained from using the C word (cult) I have deliberately done so because in ones thought processes it is so easy to think, “I know what a cult is….and I’m not in one” The fact is, virtually every “Cult” knows Cults exist, and can recognize them, but can never look in the mirror and apply the dynamics that happen in one to themselves. That is a fascinating phenomenon. Not using the word humanizes the situation and gets closer when one realizes that we all are vulnerable to being involved in a group like that, or, as happens most often, being in a group that does not have all the characteristics of a cult but evolves into one.
I read many recommendations here for Dispenza’s book. I was also glad to see the information and his credentials challenged, as they should be. However, have any of you who recommended his book or passed it along to others be it given, donated or sold considered (here it comes again) that law of unintended consequences of someone picking it up and after reading thinking “why don’t I just go to the source and join RSE” That is the real reason why JZ has not gone after him. While I don’t believe he intends to recruit for anyone but himself, JZ knows she will gain more in recruits then from book royalties or licensing fees. I will leave you with an personal example from experience as to how something like this can happen and how regretfully I wish I had learned my lesson some other way;
I was 16 in the 60’s, I was outside my high school one day and the school was protesting the Vietnam war. I was spouting off my mouth and my ego was being pumped up. Along comes this beautiful gal, in her early 20’s and starts complimenting my ability to speak (looking at her I was speechless). She takes me back to her place for some sex drugs and rock and roll and explains to me that there was going to be a large protest in Washington in a few weeks and her groups name was “Students for Peace” or something to that effect. She asked me if I could organize the high school and that she would provide an office and telephones and transportation. I got together 225 students, we all boarded busses and partied our way down to Washington. Only when we arrived it became obvious that her group was the Socialist Workers Party, not that I knew much about them, but I knew I had been deceived and had in turn provided a convenient front for her and her group. I tried to tell everyone what had occurred but very few claimed to care, they were just having a good time. I have no idea how many lives I may have changed or families I might have affected that day. It still haunts me.
Below are Lifton’s 8 criteria for establishing a totalistic group. Of course, many mainstream groups would fit 4,5,6 of the criteria, it is the combination of all 8 which makes the totalistic dynamic possible. Just so you know.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform
1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich�s, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
