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Similarities between Ramtha's School of Enlightenment and TMS

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by hodini, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hi all,

    This being my first post I would like to introduce myself and how I came upon the site. While I have had my own experiences with pain (as I think almost every human being has), I came upon the site doing a routine search on JZ Knight & Ramtha.

    I had a family member involved in Ramtha’s School Of Enlightenment [RSE] for over 10 years. During this time they were estranged from me. That part of time in my life was a particularly emotionally painful one for me and one in which I came to terms with several different times in several different ways. The way in which I conducted myself towards my family member had several unintended consequences, some favorable and others not.

    While I hesitate to call myself an expert in the area of RSE, I certainly have done much research over the last 20 years, interviewed those who were former and current students at RSE as well as scientists and physicists in order to try and unravel the pseudo science taught there. I have been brought to court by the organization, have written about my views and have been around since the inception of the Enlighten me Free website founded by my friend and former student David McCarthy whom in his dedication to bringing the truth to light suffered greatly in doing so, emotionally, physically, and financially.

    I am glad to see that his diligence and efforts have been useful to those who are discovering the roots of Joe Dispenza’s knowledge, philosophy, and mindset.

    I do not normally spend a lot of time writing on websites. However, since I stumbled across yours I would like to put my two cents in (may seem more like $1,000 !)

    I know some of what I may have to say might be a bit like farting at the Queens dining table, but I would like to say right off that my intentions are not to demean, denigrate, look down upon, attack anyone here on the site personally.

    My intention is, hopefully, to discuss in a civil manner what I see as some of the similarities in TSM’s philosophy and RSE’s. I acknowledge that I am quite unfamiliar with TSM but have spent several hours reading around the site and am simply going to give my impressions which of course could be mistaken.

    From what I have read, the majority of participants here are quite educated, articulate, well meaning, wanting to better themselves and others and willing to go “outside of the box” as I have heard some of you express to do so. The afore mentioned attributes are admirable and I feel essential for our human society to evolve in a positive manner. This make-up of personalities however is almost identical to those in RSE. As was Joe Dispenza’s at the time of his participation at RSE though now it appears he is on the money train.

    Embedded in RSE’s philosophy at it’s core is the concept that one creates their own reality. While the upside of that would be that one should ideally have control over their health, wealth, and state of well being, when those conditions are not favorable for them, they only have themselves to hold accountable. I feel this is a false narrative and I will attempt to explain why. When this type of philosophy is put into practice it leads to a diminished capability of critically examining ones true circumstances. This is not to say that it is ever possible to obtain a 100% “true” perception.

    In that sense, I agree with some of the statements about perfectionism and its unintended consequences. In the study of influence and when that influence becomes progressively more extreme Robert Lifton’s seminal work on thought reform in Red China labeled this as “the demand for purity”, a state that is being constantly tried for while being influenced to believe it is attainable. The old carrot and stick.

    I have read the phrase and concept of “Outcome Independence” here with regard to an individual being able to control their pain to the ideal point of being pain free. I look at that as one of those demands for purity. That is not to say that it is not possible for one to have positive outcomes on ones perception of pain but it is to say that to be able to “will” ones pain away is just like being able to create ones own reality. This can lead to some potentially dangerous outcomes. Again, I am not saying that there are not techniques for controlling pain, there are and they have been demonstrated in a scientific manner and prove beneficial, but let’s be real, unless one is a masochist, no one wishes, given a choice, to be in a state of pain.

    However, pain is part of our survival mechanism. It can be our body’s way of telling us to stay still and not move while our body’s do its fantastic work and repair our injury or illness. If you think about it, what our body’s accomplish every day without us having to think about it is nothing short of miraculous.

    Pain, besides being 100% subjective (though psychology shows us that our ability to perceive pain can be mediated for better or worse by our perception of others) happens on a continuum. I found from what I was reading on here the word pain used singely quite often except for descriptions of burning, stinging, etc. I mean, there is the pain of a dull headache, the throbbing pain of a tooth ache, the sharp pain when one stubs their toe or hits their shin, the immobilizing pain of the dentist hitting your nerve when you have not had enough novicain, or, when your nerve in your back gets pinched and you fall to your knees the pain is so great. I could probably go on for a full page with the various types and magnitudes of pain and I am fairly certain most of you whom are here have more experience then myself.

    There have been instances where full operations have been done on patients using only hypnosis (which is a controversy in itself, hypnosis that is). The reason why it is not used in practice to my understanding is that ones body “remembers” the pain even though it is not felt and so the goal is to make surgery less invasive, shorter and less traumatic. I digress.

    The potential for denying pain, or, “just saying I don’t care”, while it may be effective is that you may be bypassing the body’s ability to communicate with you through pain in order to keep you from re-injury or inhibiting the healing process though your pain free movements.

    I am well aware that as human beings having individual pain thresholds we succumb when a certain threshold is breached. We will do almost anything to be out of pain. Hence the pharmaceutical industry’s pedaling of opioids and pain relieve medicine and the unintended consequences to our organs and mental well being.

    One of the main reasons confessions or Intel that are coerced are not reliable is because it is a well established fact that when subjected to extreme conditions human beings will do and say almost anything to relieve themselves of the excruciating burden of bearing the pain. Certainly those of you who have been experiencing lasting and chronic pain are experiencing an extreme condition and my heart goes out to you.

    A group like RSE uses a variety of tactics and techniques which subtly move one closer to the agenda of JZ and her underlings, meaning $’s though there also appears to be a narcissistic need for control over others which might just suffice for her and that is even more concerning or should be for those involved.

    From my reading so far, I am not attempting to put this site or TMS on the same level as her, but at one point she was not like that either, she was a shrewd cable tv marketer, she only found her niche when she discovered the Ramtha persona and monetized it to the detriment of thousands.

    Joe Dispenza is fruit of the same tree, only it appears after his and RSE ‘s “What the Bleep fame. He decided to strike out on his own and decided to leave out the lizard people eating humans, the aliens using mind control on all our politicians (could be some truth to that…..LOL) , now that Ramtha has turned pro Trump and has said that Trump will see the “two silver disks accompanying his aircraft so then he will know the truth”, and all the other salacious end of the world, bigotry, and stuff so that Dispenza could reach a broader market.

    Please note that throughout all this babble, I have refrained from using the C word (cult) I have deliberately done so because in ones thought processes it is so easy to think, “I know what a cult is….and I’m not in one” The fact is, virtually every “Cult” knows Cults exist, and can recognize them, but can never look in the mirror and apply the dynamics that happen in one to themselves. That is a fascinating phenomenon. Not using the word humanizes the situation and gets closer when one realizes that we all are vulnerable to being involved in a group like that, or, as happens most often, being in a group that does not have all the characteristics of a cult but evolves into one.

    I read many recommendations here for Dispenza’s book. I was also glad to see the information and his credentials challenged, as they should be. However, have any of you who recommended his book or passed it along to others be it given, donated or sold considered (here it comes again) that law of unintended consequences of someone picking it up and after reading thinking “why don’t I just go to the source and join RSE” That is the real reason why JZ has not gone after him. While I don’t believe he intends to recruit for anyone but himself, JZ knows she will gain more in recruits then from book royalties or licensing fees. I will leave you with an personal example from experience as to how something like this can happen and how regretfully I wish I had learned my lesson some other way;

    I was 16 in the 60’s, I was outside my high school one day and the school was protesting the Vietnam war. I was spouting off my mouth and my ego was being pumped up. Along comes this beautiful gal, in her early 20’s and starts complimenting my ability to speak (looking at her I was speechless). She takes me back to her place for some sex drugs and rock and roll and explains to me that there was going to be a large protest in Washington in a few weeks and her groups name was “Students for Peace” or something to that effect. She asked me if I could organize the high school and that she would provide an office and telephones and transportation. I got together 225 students, we all boarded busses and partied our way down to Washington. Only when we arrived it became obvious that her group was the Socialist Workers Party, not that I knew much about them, but I knew I had been deceived and had in turn provided a convenient front for her and her group. I tried to tell everyone what had occurred but very few claimed to care, they were just having a good time. I have no idea how many lives I may have changed or families I might have affected that day. It still haunts me.

    Below are Lifton’s 8 criteria for establishing a totalistic group. Of course, many mainstream groups would fit 4,5,6 of the criteria, it is the combination of all 8 which makes the totalistic dynamic possible. Just so you know.

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

    Dr. Robert J. Lifton's Eight Criteria for Thought Reform

    1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

    2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.

    3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

    4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

    5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

    6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clich�s, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

    7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

    8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
  2. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    I just don't see a strong similarity between Ramtha’s School Of Enlightenment [RSE] and Dr. John E Sarno's concept of TMS (although people with similar self-improvement mind sets might be attacked to both). Sarno's ideas are too Neo-Freudian revisionist to coexist with avatars and channeling etc. etc. etc.
    EileenS likes this.
  3. Alan Gordon LCSW

    Alan Gordon LCSW TMS Therapist

    I loved your post! It was so smartly written and well-structured. Though I did want to point out a misinterpretation you made regarding outcome independence.

    Outcome independence is not a means of controlling the pain, directly at least.

    Pain is a danger signal. When this danger signal is accurately indicating that your body is at risk of tissue damage, outcome independence will do nothing to reduce your symptoms.

    On the other hand, when your brain is mistakenly communicating to you that your body is at risk of tissue damage, these pain pathways are being reinforced by the fear around the pain. Pain-related fear is keeping the danger signals in an active state- even though there is no physical damage to speak of- and this fear serves as a reinforcing agent for the pain.

    All outcome independence does is help break that cycle of reinforcement, and subsequently eliminate the consequential behavior (pain). This isn't a particularly new concept, it's just a specific application of Behaviorism.
    Moppy and Cap'n Spanky like this.
  4. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Greetings Alan,
    I certainly could be misinterpreting the meaning of "outcome independence" since it is a term I am unfamiliar with. Could you define it for me and tell me of its origin, ie physiological, psychological, scientific, etc. who coined the term and for what purpose? Perhaps then I could grasp the concept better once I understand the context better. In other words, does it have varying meanings in different practices? Is it unique to TMS? I simply figured on standard usage of the words that outcome meant a consequence of something; in this case pain=outcome regardless if it is physiological or psychological. and independence meaning; free from support, control or such from any thing outside of ones self be it exterior conditions or, other people. If there are nuanced meanings other then that I would appreciate it if you could let me know your definition and how you use it.

    Additionally, I was wondering how one goes about determining definitively, if pain is the result of an "accurate" indication of the risk of tissue damage, or, if the pain is a miscommunication originating in the brain (what part?)? As far as being an application of Behaviorism; pain is not the same as pain behavior, pain behavior is the result of ones response to pain which would necessarily include both voluntary and involuntary physiological responses. Operant and or classical conditioning would influence the outcomes of pain behavior even if the behavior was in fact an "accurate" perception or a miscommunication originating in ones brain, no?
  5. Forest

    Forest Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi hodini, you may have to do that research yourself. This forum is for people who already have read a TMS book and therefore understand the basics already. This thread is about Ramtha and RSE and I'll have limited tolerance for taking it further off topic. Further, it's not Alan's job to explain something when there is already so much free and very low cost info out there.
    Moppy likes this.
  6. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hello Forest,

    Thank you for the heads up, sorry about that, I was simply responding to Alan. Perhaps you could move the latter posts to a more appropriate place, I do not know where that is so that myself and Alan are in the appropriate place to continue our dialogue. As I have time I will review the site further to see if I can find some of what I was looking for. Thank you.
  7. Alan Gordon LCSW

    Alan Gordon LCSW TMS Therapist

    Hi Houdini,
    Those are some in depth questions. I'm not sure who coined the term outcome independence in general, but with regard to TMS, it simply means getting to a place of authentic indifference over whether or not you're in pain. This, assuming the pain is truly anatomically non-dangerous, serves to break the reinforcement (fear) for the pain.

    Also, in the previous post, I didn't mean pain behavior, that's a separate concept, I meant pain as a learned behavior.

    Regarding how to determine whether the pain is a consequence of stuructural damage or learned neural pathways, an entire book could be written on that alone, and as Forest mentioned, it is discussed in other places on the tms wiki.
    Moppy likes this.
  8. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Hodini, well written post and appreciate your concern that this forum not be a tool for some cult. TMS when practiced correctly is probably the opposite of cult-like thinking. TMS thinking redirects ones pains thoughts to conscious thinking and away from knee-jerk subconscious primitive lemming group thought. I've seen Dispenza and the Ramtha lady mentioned at this site a while back, did a little googling and discerned the cult background--follow the money. I've heard about and attended a few cult "parties" like the Moonies, scientololgy, EST, Synanon and the like, to recognize the warning signs of when you will be separated from your wallet soon. When you're young and impressionable you fall for this stuff like Timothy Leary's interview in Playboy, where he convinced me that LSD was the solution to ALL the world's problems. When I tried to convince my parents of that they shook their heads a little but didn't try to deflate my youthful enthusiasm and naivete. Later I understood what their head-shaking meant--just google Timothy Leary's bio on google. When you get a mortgage and some life experience you quit believing everything just because it's in print or on the evening news. Hodini, I wouldn't worry about TMS having any cult ramifications, it's just psycholgy 101, basic Freud, Jung, etc.--psychosomatic medicine, defense mechanisms, subconscious, id, egos & superegos. No money here to be made, TMS books go used for a penny and $3.99 shipping from Amazon. Most TMS authors don't make enough money off their books for a trip to Disneyland. If you have any chronic pains, read a TMS book before you get any surgery.

    Best wishes,
    Moppy, sam908, Celayne and 2 others like this.
  9. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hi Alan,
    Thank you for your reply, it is certainly going to take me some time just to go through a small portion of the site. That is why I was asking for some specific suggestions where I may go to get some of the information regarding my questions. I am sorry, I understand that this is not the place for it so perhaps you could suggest another thread to continue it on. Additionally, in explaining how you used the meaning of "outcome indifference" You say it means getting to a place of "authentic indifference" which is equally out of my lexicon.

    Hi TT,
    Thank you for your reply also!

    I am not so worried about TMS becoming a tool for a cult though it is possible, however, I am always concerned when I see environments (speaking specifically of the net), where ideas, ideologies, theories, etc can be spread like viruses.
    Unfortunately, many technologically driven ideologies have found ways to monetize this capacity. You may be right about the book authors, however, I would point out that Ramtha's used books can be bought at the same prices as well as many others.

    I have begun some reading here, however, I keep running into differing things that I have learned to question as to if they make common sense or not, if a view is supported by their peers, reasons why that may or may not be true, unfortunately for me since I have limited time to engage in this type of research it creates a lot of mind twisting reasoning in order to accept some premises and acceptance of the premise seems necessary to continue forward. It is in this sense I find it similar in SOME ways to RSE and also to the groups you mentioned above. Research has proven ( note: the majority of research done on this subject comes from anti-cultic organizations and should also be taken with a grain of salt) that many people who have been involved with groups like this have a history of belonging to other groups with similar dynamics even if the belief systems may be contrary to their previous groups. Some use the term "cult hoppers" to describe them. I think that is a loaded term and does not go very far in aiding those involved understand what has or might have occurred.

    These are simply for the most part (aside from the megalomaniacs and narcissists) persons whom are following their visceral feelings that the group dynamic and identity encourage and help to sustained, which in turn leads them to be guided by the groups agenda.

    Imagine spending 20 or more years of ones life for example in RSE thinking you are going to attain the powers of a God and JZ Knight has been pretending to be this God teaching you. You give everything to your effort, you give up your family, friends who are too inquisitive, long established social structures not to mention what you have given from your wallet and then one day, "poof" it is all gone because you have seen the Emperor with no clothes on

    It is a truly an immediately unfortunate situation that most people blame themselves for and most outsiders do also, saying things like "they must have been looking for something", "they had something lacking in their lives", "they had to be pretty dumb to believe something like that" etc.

    Part of what I attempt to do in order to help a person make the transition from a group like that is to get them to try and make an assessment of how much responsibility they should accept and if in fact it is doing them any good to do so. I often use the analogy that what had happened to them was as if they were on a road trip, followed signs that they expected to get them to their destination but someone had moved those road signs and pointed them in a different direction. If they did not work for the department of highways, they cannot blame themselves for following signs they should rightly expect to be correct.

    I will give you just a few things that I have come across perusing this site that inform me.
    The TMS wiki site has 1,260,000 hits (I round off the figures) on the bottom of the page is a link to the full disclaimer.
    That had a little more then 6,000 hits, I am not a mathematician (but perhaps Forest can give the accurate percentage as I do not know the formula to figure it out), but my intuitive mathematical sense would place it somewhere around .05%.

    The abridged disclaimer states "DISCLAIMER: The TMS Wiki is for informational and support purposes only and does not provide medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment recommendations. See Full Disclaimer."

    Yet, on the introduction to TMS page it starts out accrediting D. Sarno with the discovery of TMS, gives his CV, and goes on from there speaking authoritatively about it. Under the section "TREATMENT" (remember no treatment recommendations?) it has a sub section titled "stop all physical treatments". Under which it goes even further to state "Full recovery can only happen when a person has full [emphasis mine] belief in the TMS process" , in this statement especially I see a similarity in RSE and many other disciplines that makes it virtually impossible for someone to evaluate their progress, the process, the integrity of it, the veracity of it, and more importantly to be able to find out if what ever the thing, theory, ideology, doctrine represents a reality available to them.

    It also creates the ultimate reason for why something may not be working and goes along way to contribute to a practitioners self blame where it may not have anything or little to do with them. It also goes a long way to keep the practitioner from holding their consultant, therapist, health professional, guru priest, elected official, etc. accountable.

    The page referred to above had 95,000 hits, that is still less then 10% of the people visiting the site, that tells me that it could be that many viewed the site and simply moved on not wanting to know more (which I do not think likely) or, those visiting the page are already familiar with TMS, the theory, etc and so basically it is preaching to the choir as it is said. Again a dynamic the same in RSE. I also found a page Talk; an introduction to TMS, this page discussed briefly the controversy surrounding TMS it had 1,400 hits. Just a bit over .01%

    I ascribe to the process of informed consent. I totally understand that the vast majority of people either cannot find the time, energy, resources, to fully inform themselves. That makes the process of informed consent even more important. Especially when it is involved with health care and the treatment of those who may be at the most vulnerable moments in their lives. I believe that one of the best ways to inform ones self is through education of the processes of influence so that they can discern how much, why, and how certain aspects of something is influencing their lives, choices, and decision making process.

    Can TMS site be used by "Cults"? Certainly, they use others all the time, sometimes without their knowledge as DR. Alpert was in "What the bleep" and sometime in alliance with others who will benefit.

    Joe Dispenza got a lot of good press from what I have read here (quite a bit of bad too) Did he have a bot start the conversation? Or, a shill? Certainly not out of the question. If I was his market researcher I would have simply checked the hits on the site. Over 1,256,000 . I would have salivated because I would know I would be direct marketing.

    Another thing I found curious, I have not been able to find anywhere Dr. Sarnos's personal input anywhere on this site.

    Though, Joe Dispenza touts Ramtha, Ramtha certainly does not tout Dispenza, reason being; he/it/she does not like competition.

    On another note since you are Tennis Tom, I am assuming you are an avid tennis player as I am. If I can figure out how to private message, I would like to discuss some tennis injuries with you at some point. I am still an aging athlete!LOL.
  10. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    "When you get a mortgage and some life experience you quit believing everything just because it's in print or on the evening news."

    By the way TT I love that line!
  11. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Hodini,
    A quick reply here, yes tennis IS life! You can private message by clicking on my avatar, it takes you to a page which at the top has a "conversation" button for personal messaging.

    No worries about TMS becoming a cult--follow the money--TMS makes up very little of any TMS savvy physicians's practice. People aren't interested, they want a quick fix, an RX for meds or PT. The general public does not want to look inward for the source of their structural problems-- they don't want to hear that "It's all in their heads"-- in our culture that's called being "crazy"--unacceptable.

    TMS'ers don't "gather"--in years of following TMS, there have been few calls for group meet-ups. In my area there was ONE meeting, attended by the organizer and me in a supermarket coffee shop--once! A few other cities have had meet-ups, London and Boston--haven't heard any more announcements for them in several years. A few conferences by professionals, physicians and psychotherapists--high level scientific language, no cult talk.

    Dr. Sarno wrote four books over his fifty year clinical practice, expanding on TMS theory as he witnessed more ailments being "cured" by "KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN". He never did a book tour and very few public appearances--one at a congressional hearing. He's never visited any TMS message board but would reply to questions in writing, I have a note from him.

    The TMS personality traits pretty much obviate cult following--they are too busy working hard, being goodists and perfectionists to find the time to attend group cult meetings, or have the wealth left after the medical/industrial complex has wiped out their bank accounts--cults want people with money, preferably trust fund babies or able bodied workers--TMS'ers don't appear able bodied enough to be signed on by cult recruiters to be tools for cults to sweep their floors and build their pyramids.

    TMS healing requires introspection and not abdicating one's soul to a cult leader.
    Moppy and Celayne like this.
  12. Forest

    Forest Beloved Grand Eagle

    Good idea. I've gone ahead and split the posts off into a new thread. (To anyone reading this thread later, all of these posts used to be here: http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/joe-dispenza-and-ramthas-school-of-enlightenment.11399/page-4#post-83891 (Joe Dispenza and Ramtha's School of Enlightenment) )
  13. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hodini, I suggest you read a book by Dr. Sarno first, before trying to piecemeal TMS together from a disparate group of posts. He has written four books, and any one will convey his theory. His first and shortest is "MIND OVER BACK PAIN"; his second, "HEALING BACK PAIN", is the one most recommended here. You'll save yourself a lot of brain cells by going to the original source, Dr. Sarno's books, and then it will make sense. It's quite elementary psychology : pain as a defense mechanism--Dr. Sarno uses the terms TMS and psychosomatic interchangeably. He doesn't pretend to have invented anything new, he just recounts how he has healed people through becoming emotionally aware of the source of their chronic pain, their subconscious.

    You are almost writing a book about why TMS won't work for you, likely due to your prior conditioning with cults. In cults people abdicate thinking and decision making for themselves. TMS is the exact opposite, individuals take conscious control of their minds, not letting their previous conditioning, stuck in their subconscious, dictating autonomic reactions caused by emotional dis-ease. Read a book about TMS before writing it off, you may find those "tennis" injuries may have coincided with volatile emotional times in your life (see the Rahe-Holmes list of life events that can cause bodily or affective dis-ease).
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  14. thecomputer

    thecomputer Well known member

    As others have said I would read one of sarnos books. I started with the Mind body prescription, which was my favourite having read them all.

    There are so many schools of thought and modalities that embrace the idea of creating your own reality, to varying degrees.

    I think it's more important to note that JZ knight is quite obviously a very strange, manipulative and deceitful person out to make money from easily influenced people who are suffering and willing to follow her.

    John Sarno is a humble and honest doctor who never made a lot of money or even tried to push his ideas too hard. He simply shares what he discovered and helped as many people as he could in his practise.

    His ideas are based in evidence he observed in his clinical practise along with the research of many physicians and psychologists who went before him.

    RSE is a pseudo science cult and in my opinion is a negative force in the world

    You've obviously learned a lot about it from your personal experience. But I wouldn't compare the two even though on a surface level they may have similarities.
    Cap'n Spanky and Tennis Tom like this.
  15. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Thank you all, and thank you Forest for making a place for this discussion. I would like to add that I think that having a title such as above could lead to a lot of non- productive discussions. Especially as I have admitted, I do not know or have a basis of knowledge on TMS at present to draw a conclusion as to the actual syndrome itself. I do feel I am able to comment as I have on the application of information about it here and the way in which I perceive it.

    Yes, my past experiences inform my perceptions as most. I am completely aware of ones ability to be a hammer and then everything looks like a nail. I usually screen for if I think that may be occurring but I am fallible to confirmation bias also and I appreciate it if anyone thinks that may be occurring and brings it up.

    TT I will take your advise and read Dr. Sarnos book and familiarize myself more with his theory. I am also currently in NY and might just go to the horses mouth so to speak if he is available. I am acquainted with mind body science its ancient origins, its treatment by corporate interest and media. I apply sometimes variations of different techniques to manage different types of pain as I am quite athletic and physical and do not like to have a cycle of pain inhibit my movements when it can be avoided. This has been a fine balancing act as I go into my "golden years". So it is not like I am saying mind body science is "woo woo" There are plenty of peer reviewed studies out there that point to its efficacy. I think as well, there are many common sense adages that point to it as well.

    Dr. Sarnos's discovery from what I have read appears to have begun in the early 70's, put in the context of those times, his ideas were probably well acquainted by the counter culture of the times, for those of you who were not around , the US was the epicenter of Music, free love, self help and transformational groups, and yes, cults were all the rage and in the news, the Beatles and TM, Werner Erhart and EST, L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology, Jonestown, just to mention a few. What many do not know is the history of where may of these ideas were born. Quite a few of them originated from a group called Mind Dynamics, others then took those theories and enlarged, renamed, and continued to turn them into multi million dollar ventures. It also came out during this time the governments involvement and interest in the ability to effect peoples thinking in a variety of ways that was well documented.

    One thing to keep in mind in a discussion like this is, people do not join High Demand Groups [HDG], they are recruited for the most part, be it overt or covert or some mixture of the two. HDG do not always start out as that, in fact they rarely do. They develop into that. There are usually informational, cultural, and environmental conditions which enable this to occur, may of which exist side by side within "normal" society.

    Knowledge of the conditions, linquistic patterns, techniques used to influence and gain entry into a persons personal space and thought processes serves one well in order to access their involvement in any group, organization or relationship.

    I am not crazy about the title for this thread, but I will have to think about it and see if I can come up with an alternative. Anyone can draw similarities about anything, So, I can only imagine if I try to put myself in TMSers shoes, I would not like to be compared to an extreme group such as RSE. That would not be my purpose of discussion here. I continued on that way to conform with Forests' request to stay on topic. But the discussion is much more subtle and complex then that. After all, we are inevitably speaking about human behavior and the things that effect it. On that we should all be able to agree. So that would be my starting point.

    One of the things that appears in virtually all HDG is, and I think this would jive with the theory about perfectionist personalities I have read here, is the demand for purity coined by Robert Lifton mentioned earlier in this thread.
    It goes into much more depth about the way the Red Chinese were able to instill this aspect of control and well worth the read if you can struggle through it. Many of you with interest in sociology, or, psychology may be familiar with his works.
    I would like to hear your comments on the following sub section under treatments of the intro to TMS page:

    Keeping in mind the context of the disclaimer which claims not to recommend treatment.

    • Stop all physical treatments: In order to fully accept the diagnosis it is important for people to stop using physical modalities to treat their symptoms, once a medical professional has cleared them for any serious medical conditions. There are a wide variety of physical therapies people in chronic pain use. Whether it is massage, heating pads, chiropractic manipulation, or acupuncture, all of these techniques keep people focused on their physical symptoms, instead of their emotional health. If you wear orthopedics, use ergonomic devices, or any other device to prevent or help reduce your symptoms, it is recommended to stop using them. If possible, stop taking pain-killers of any kind or strength. Full recovery can only happen when a person has full belief in the TMS process.
    I am not putting the efficacy of the paragraph into question, I am only pointing out that it seems to be doing what the disclaimer is disclaiming. I do not know if that is by error or design. I am only pointing out what is there.

    In HDG there is always a lot of contradictory statements in facts and doctrine and behavior. this aids in keeping ones mind off balance, always trying to figure out what it means. The eventual answer if one presses usually is "it will be your truth what it means to you. This is ok when it comes to the arts, but doesn't work when it comes to scientific exploration.

    "Full recovery can only happen when a person has full belief in the TMS process."

    This was the summation of the paragraph, it is totalistic in and of itself.

    This is similar to saying "you can't get to heaven if you don't believe in Jesus" or any of the other equivalents.

    It gives the impression clearly that if one does not fully (totally) believe, one will not be successful in achieving their goal.

    Besides being totalistic, how does that not feed a perfectionists need for perfection?

    The other thing it does is take the onus away from the TMS process and puts it squarely on the practitioner.

    If the practitioner is likely to be a perfectionist and hard on themselves, is it not more likely then for them to blame themselves for not being able to effect their pain to the degree expected?

    It also negates the age old adage, "there are more then one ways to skin a cat".
  16. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    I interpret the Good Doctor's quote to be more akin to mathematics, you have to accept the premise that 2+2 = 4, or you will have problems going forward getting to the correct bottom line. Another example is accepting that the earth is round although from our perspective down here it looks to be flat. It does take a leap of faith to break-away from all the propaganda and "science" of the current medical/industrial complex and the collective meme. But if you accept psychology to be a science as any other then TMS is pure science and not woo-woo. Dr. Sarno lays the foundation for his contribution to psychosomatic medicine to the founders of psychology such as Freud, Jung, Adler. Maslow, etc. Yes, read one of Dr. Sarno's books and you will see his MINDBODY theory for relieving in chronic pain is well founded in science, including his fifty years of clinical practice healing thousands of patients and the millions of others cured by absorbing his KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN through reading his books.
    Celayne likes this.
  17. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Maybe I'm reading this too quickly but I'm not seeing the contradictions, unless you're referring to the use of pain-killers. I take diclofenac sodium (Voltaren) twice a day, although I'd much prefer to take nothing--but for now they keep me in the game. I put ice on my butt after playing, although heat and ice are not recommended either under the TMS protocol--it's cheap, and I don't feel very guilty about it--whatever works--without doing harm--my version of the Hippocratic oath. I do have a good excuse though, having been heavily noceboed years ago, to get a hip-replacement sooner then later--by two TMS physicians.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  18. AC45

    AC45 Well known member

    This is an odd thread. Is it needed here? All we do here is support each other to get better. There is no "cult" activity. Mindbody medicine has been around for a long time - in different cultures and traditions. Dr. Sarno wrote books based on his medical practice. The simple advice has helped many of us - myself included. We do go to doctors and we do what's medically necessary. Dr. Sarno didn't pursue TMS methods unless someone saw him (or any other TMS doctor first). It would be a shame to scare off newcomers to TMS. If they think it is a weird cult thing, they may not continue. Anyway, that's my 3 cents. No voodoo here - just support and comfort for those who are healing.
  19. EileenS

    EileenS Well known member

    I completely agree AC45. I understand why Forest has this thread here though as it shows the strong doubt in TMS most of the general population have. Perhaps, as mentioned previously, the title should be different. The posts are very long and many readers might only get through part of hodini's initial post and their ego pain inducing minds will grasp onto the idea that TMS can't work - where those of us who have recovered from chronic pain using TMS have been down that long road and know better.

    Hodini, I understand why you might have picked up the impression you have. There are some posts on this site that have gone 'off track' into 'woowoo' type territory, mentioning Dispenza for example, but Dr Sarno's books, which I listened to him narrate on audio, give me the impression he was a very unassuming down to earth man. I suspect he wasn't even into yoga as an exercise.
    I just realized from reading another recent post that Dr Sarno just passed away. Perhaps this article about his life from the NY Times will help you understand Dr Sarno and his work. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/science/john-sarno-dead-healing-back-pain-doctor.html (Dr. John Sarno, 93, Dies; Best-Selling Author Tied Pain to Anxieties)
    May he rest in piece as so many of us thank him for being able to lead our lives without constant pain.
    Tennis Tom and Cap'n Spanky like this.
  20. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Dr. Sarno played tennis.:)
    EileenS likes this.

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