Question about my MRI

T

tmsthrowaway05

Peer Supporter
Hey guys so I'm on day 11 of the structural education program, doing well. My upper back pain began 18 months ago after waking up in a bad sleeping position. Have seen many docs, a few cervical MRI's that aren't significant and shouldn't be causing the pain. Due to no real structural issue, the upper back pain I contribute to TMS. This is important to note because a few months after the initial upper back pain, my shoulder felt really off one day at work (I worked at a beer store and did a ton of heavy lifting). I could tell my shoulder felt weak and wasn't right... so now I had the neck/upper back spasms/pain and the shoulder weakness. For the past 15 months or so I have had trouble using my right shoulder. Can barely hold it upright or overhead without pain, therefore doing my hair, brushing my teeth, scrambling eggs, it all aggravates my shoulder and annoys me tremendously. So I finally got a shoulder MRI and I have frozen shoulder and tendonitis. Now I have already been going to a PT for 3 months for the shoulder and upper back(I know Sarno says stop PT and everything). I'm going to continue PT of course now because I have these shoulder issues and findings on the MRI.

My question basically is what should I do now regarding the SEP program and TMS. My upper back still tenses up DAILY and really bugs me, causes anxiety/ difficulty breathing, your typical TMS symptoms. BUT my shoulder is structurally messed up. I'm going to continue the program for the upper back spasms/pain, and continue PT for my tendonitis and frozen shoulder. Any help here would be awesome guys. 26 y.o male from USA. Also I should note that my shoulder findings may have been from my physically demanding job OR a sort of referred pain due to the upper back issue. By this I mean maybe my shoulder was compensating for the upper back issues and worked too hard, I know that has been mentioned in the TMS/SEP program.
 
tmsthrowaway05 said:
tendonitis and frozen shoulder
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Does the SEP not entail reading about TMS? Both of your 'structural' diagnoses are the usual trashcan diagnosis they give ANYBODY who comes in with a problem.
tmsthrowaway05 said:
I'm going to continue PT of course now because I have these shoulder issues and findings on the MRI.
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Yeah... that sentence was the give away. You are still 'believing' there is something wrong with you.

I've had your exact symptoms.... twice. Age 33 for two weeks and age 45 or so for a couple of weeks. I am certain if I had gone and got an MRI I would have had 'tendonitis' and 'frozen shoulder' and probably torn up stuff as well seeing as I have been throwing baseballs virtually every day of my life for as long as I can remember.
I turned my thoughts to what was bothering me in my life and the symptoms evaporated. Continuing in PT will only prolong your symptoms.
I also have stenosis, herniated discs, a broken vertebrae in my spine and other really scary things I won't bore you with...and I am not in pain.

Part of TMS is realizing that those things were just 'there' and before they invented MRI's no one took them too seriously . That machine has made an army of 'injured' people

Go back and read "Healing back Pain' or 'the divided Mind" or "Mindbody prescription".. these things are covered in great detail there.
 
I was pretty clear that I know about TMS and pain manifestations in general, not an expert yet but I get the idea. One of the main things reiterated in his book and the SEP is that you should rule out any structural injuries. I know I could have 10 herniated discs and be pain free due to overcoming TMS. But I'm absolutely not going to ignore or stop going to PT for tendonitis and frozen shoulder. I'm not against TMS at all and will continue my program, but believe me the shoulder pain is real (and I don't mean real as in it's real pain manifested from TMS, there's something wrong with my shoulder). My dad had frozen shoulder a few months ago. I 100% get what you're saying.. you think they are BS diagnoses that would not be relevant if it weren't for MRI machines, and in some cases yeah sure you are right, but I totally disagree and am taken back that you'd say that. I am on board with TMS dude, and as my post said I attribute it to my upper back pain, but this shoulder pain is no joke. I hear my shoulder blade and bones cracking and snapping with any overhead movement. That is what it feels like to have frozen shoulder. Luckily tendonitis and frozen shoulder are quite treatable. Just because you had my symptoms doesn't mean it's EXACTLY the same diagnosis. I played sports too and did heavy lifting at my job for years. So what do you say about Sarno and others noting that you should RULE OUT any structural damage. Tendonitis and frozen shoulder (adhesive capsulitis) are structural damage...sure I could have these things and be pain free... but I'm not. I think you are out of line here.
 
Baseball65 said:
Does the SEP not entail reading about TMS? Both of your 'structural' diagnoses are the usual trashcan diagnosis they give ANYBODY who comes in with a problem.
Yeah... that sentence was the give away. You are still 'believing' there is something wrong with you.

I've had your exact symptoms.... twice. Age 33 for two weeks and age 45 or so for a couple of weeks. I am certain if I had gone and got an MRI I would have had 'tendonitis' and 'frozen shoulder' and probably torn up stuff as well seeing as I have been throwing baseballs virtually every day of my life for as long as I can remember.
I turned my thoughts to what was bothering me in my life and the symptoms evaporated. Continuing in PT will only prolong your symptoms.
I also have stenosis, herniated discs, a broken vertebrae in my spine and other really scary things I won't bore you with...and I am not in pain.

Part of TMS is realizing that those things were just 'there' and before they invented MRI's no one took them too seriously . That machine has made an army of 'injured' people

Go back and read "Healing back Pain' or 'the divided Mind" or "Mindbody prescription".. these things are covered in great detail there.
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Didn't mean to come at you heavy..I understand that alot of people on here attribute tendonitis and frozen shoulder to tms. I'll PM you Tomorrow to chat if that's cool
 
I was actually going to respond but I decided to wait for others responses first. The problem is you are on the fence. You can't go to a PT and think it's structural but use the TMS approach at the same time. It's contradictory. It also seems likes you have a need to "defend" your pain with the label of frozen shoulder and adhesive capsulitis. Underneath the anger, there is fear....hence the clinging to the idea that "some of this IS structural and yeah some of it is clenching from my inner tension". In order to get better from chronic pain, including "frozen shoulder" one has to accept the TMS diagnosis. The brain can't calm down, if there is all this cognitive dissonance going on.
 
I think things were misinterpreted.

After researching tendonitis and frozen shoulder, it's clear many of the people on TMSwiki believe it is not a structural problem, I didn't know that. I took what Sarno said directly from his book, which is that you should first rule out any realstructural issues. I got my MRI results yesterday, so I posted assuming that tendonitis and frozen shoulder are structural issues, I didn't expect everyone to attribute them to TMS. I am not at all defending my pain with these ailments. I am just saying what my MRI showed, and while I am on board with TMS it is hard to differ TMS pain with structural pain. It can get confusing for me. My dad has tendonitis and frozen shoulder, and he got better from PT then it recurred and he got a cortisone shot and is better. He didn't have TMS, so what do you say to that? It seems that things like tendonitis and frozen shoulder can go both ways regarding actual structural pain and TMS pain. Again, it is confusing.
 
tmsthrowaway05 said:
I think things were misinterpreted.

After researching tendonitis and frozen shoulder, it's clear many of the people on TMSwiki believe it is not a structural problem, I didn't know that. I took what Sarno said directly from his book, which is that you should first rule out any realstructural issues. I got my MRI results yesterday, so I posted assuming that tendonitis and frozen shoulder are structural issues, I didn't expect everyone to attribute them to TMS. I am not at all defending my pain with these ailments. I am just saying what my MRI showed, and while I am on board with TMS it is hard to differ TMS pain with structural pain. It can get confusing for me. My dad has tendonitis and frozen shoulder, and he got better from PT then it recurred and he got a cortisone shot and is better. He didn't have TMS, so what do you say to that? It seems that things like tendonitis and frozen shoulder can go both ways regarding actual structural pain and TMS pain. Again, it is confusing.
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People often get better from these sorts of things simply with the passage of time...doing nothing. PT and a cortisone shot could also have also had the placebo effect of helping a person's brain calm down. Moving those areas in PT, lowers fear and increases confidence. The shot is usually if not always a placebo. Lose the fear, lose the pain. It all starts in the brain. The brain creates all sensations. There have been many research studies showing that surgery was no more effective than doing nothing. There was zero percent effectiveness.
 
I've heard of the surgery stories not working and placebos in general. I read the book. Cortisone shots lessen inflammation so not sure that they do nothing like you said. I know sarno has strong beliefs about placebo's. But my dad is 69 y.o and doesn't have tms..shots have worked for him in past and now. My main thing still is that not every pain is TMS. Tendonitis or anything for that matter can be real structural issues. Not sure why people are defending tms so much I'm just being straight shooter here.
 
tmsthrowaway05 said:
I've heard of the surgery stories not working and placebos in general. I read the book. Cortisone shots lessen inflammation so not sure that they do nothing like you said. I know sarno has strong beliefs about placebo's. But my dad is 69 y.o and doesn't have tms..shots have worked for him in past and now. My main thing still is that not every pain is TMS. Tendonitis or anything for that matter can be real structural issues. Not sure why people are defending tms so much I'm just being straight shooter here.
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Any pain that wears on after 3 months is considered chronic. Of course there are injuries and tendonitis and inflammation etc but the body heals itself within a short time. Once you cross over into chronic pain where it continues for months and years, the brain has taken over and it's TMS.
 
miffybunny said:
Any pain that wears on after 3 months is considered chronic. Of course there are injuries and tendonitis and inflammation etc but the body heals itself within a short time. Once you cross over into chronic pain where it continues for months and years, the brain has taken over and it's TMS.
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I know for a fact that frozen shoulder takes 1-3 years to heal. Look it up. So that negates what you said lol.
 
That's exactly why "frozen shoulder" is considered TMS. I was diagnosed with an incurable neurological disease CRPS. It was still TMS and I did get better. TMS and the mind body approach ("neural circuit pain" stemming from the brain....psychogenic pain) DOES negate pretty much everything in traditional western medicine. It's a total paradigm shift and acceptance of TMS as the diagnosis is the first step. Without that you are spinning your wheels.
 
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Hey Bro. I sent you a PM. I thought you might like to know that I did it before I read this string and @miffybunny 's replies to you which are essentially the same ones I sent you (she's probably nicer than I am)

We're on your side. This is not some adversarial sort of 'rightness' we are proposing. Nobody on this board would have ended up here unless we had thoroughly exhausted the 'Medieval Medical Mythology" that Sarno spoke of.....and it failed us utterly. The same system that told you your condition takes 1-3 years told me I am a cripple and would never work in construction or run again... and I have done both for two decades since with peace of mind and confidence.

If you consult Dr. Google you will find that everything we discuss and recommend is wrong. We can be disproved by majority on virtually every topic we cover. When you find , as we did that club-MED is a lifetime membership and no one gets paroled, you might be more interested in what we do here.
All of us believed and were mega-informed on our conditions when we got here....in pain frustrated and pissed. It was by learning a new way to perceive it and go about treating it we all got better.
 
Understood. I'm torn now and really frustrated. I can't ignore my doctor's orders to see my PT. I can't ignore tendonitis and the frozen shoulder thing. I'll continue my tms program and my PT. I won't look at PT like there's something wrong with me, but rather as a way of helping my arm improve. It's difficult to hear two different schools of thought and I know TMS is denied by everyone and I need to get fully on board, it's still really tough and it's stressing me out even more now. I do think I need to change my thoughts and way of life to improve in regard to tms, but it doesn't hurt to try PT for 2 months and see if my shoulder gets better
 
Here are my two cents. Start with my story, maybe it would help you put things in the perspective.

I fell on a hike about 20 years ago. Made it back to the trailhead not feeling any serious pain. Drove home, could not get out of the car due to severe back pain. Suffered bad back, serious sciatica issues for 4-5 years, spent thousands on chiropractors, got better, but had bad flare ups for another 10 years. It was very real and physical. My sacroiliac joint would come out of whack and my right leg would be an inch or more shorter than my left leg and I would start limping (confirmed by several chiropractors). Had to go to the chiropractor every month or even weekly at times in order to be able to walk.

About 5 years ago, I developed neuropathic pain and muscle contraction in in my hands. It was very real and physical. My hands were clawed in, there were very weird clicking sounds when I was moving my fingers to a small degree of mobility they still had. My symptoms were spreading into my elbows, arms, knees and feet. Was struggling with it for 2+ years. Guess what, during that time my back was all of a sudden like new. Not a single problem for 2.5 years. Once I got rid of my hands problem using TMS approach (no surgeries, no pills, no steroids), back pain returned, as well predicted by Sarno. But now I was viewing it as TMS and kept doing my TMS thing. Since then, I have been backpacking in the mountains with 30+ lbs on my back, climbed Mt. Whitney (BTW, I am a 63 years old short and not very athletic woman) and run half-marathons. I took up running as my recovery from pain routine, I never ran even 1oo yards until I was 58 and in pain.

This is what I came to believe.

Your brain is powerful. Pain is not the only implication of suppressed emotions. It can send a pain signal but it can also send muscle spasm signals. Once you get muscle spasms in one place, the other places have to compensate for it. My right hip was putting a lot of imbalanced pressure on my left leg, so my left knee was experiencing real, physical pain from being twisted and getting all extra weight on it. Once my muscle contractions triggered by my brain stopped, my left knee is no longer in pain.

My dystonia (muscle contractions) is documented by the doctors. Even more so, there are no medical procedures to promise any hope for dystonia, it is officially incurable. Thanks to Sarno, I am fully recovered, not only from the pain in my hands and dystonia, but also from the pain in my back. I can do more with my hands than I used to be able to do, same for my back.

Our bodies are strong. We are stronger than we think (quote from Sarno). Here is what I would recommend: there is no harm in taking on TMS. Go all in. Take it seriously, deal with your emotions, anger, early childhood problems - load it all on the table. Give it time, do not set deadlines. If it does not work, you can always find a doctor to cut you up. It is not easy to live with pain, but there are so many people on this forum who lived with pain until there was no pain anymore. One more time: TMS can cause what feels like very physical: spasms, cracking joints, serious swelling, redness of the skin and so on.

And the last thing: yes, you can ignore your doctor's orders, I did just that and never looked back. To do that, see a TMS doctor like Dr. Schubiner or Dr. Geitzen (I saw him before I went full TMS) to make sure that they, not your PT, clear you to do so. Because your PT will never tell you about your TMS as they don't know it exists.
 
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I hear you and I've been there. I don't know if my story will help you, but here it is. I understand exactly the dilemma you face. I'd actually been cured by TMS knowledge 10 years ago, but totally abandoned my TMS knowledge when a new lower back symptom started 2 years ago. My new "injury" to my lower back (herniated disk) I though was caused by vigorously working out. A friend finally told me "Sarno cured you before, go back to it". But I said, "no, this time its different because I have this herniated disc." So I went through the MRIs, chiropractors, PT (for 18 months!), medications, epidurals, etc. before I realized that none of it was going to work and none of the specialist really knew where the pain was coming from. In desperation, I reread all my Sarno books and it worked again (almost instantaneously). I was pretty embarrassed about the 2 years I wasted, but if I hadn't I wouldn't have been so open to the TMS principles again. Here is my point, I think its understandable to want to go down that path you are doing (i.e. the PT, MRIs, etc.) because once you go down it (assuming it doesn't work) you will have greater faith in TMS. Hopefully, your path won't take as long as mine did. I wish you well.
 
TG957 said:
Here are my two cents. Start with my story, maybe it would help you put things in the perspective.

I fell on a hike about 20 years ago. Made it back to the trailhead not feeling any serious pain. Drove home, could not get out of the car due to severe back pain. Suffered bad back, serious sciatica issues for 4-5 years, spent thousands on chiropractors, got better, but had bad flare ups for another 10 years. It was very real and physical. My sacroiliac joint would come out of whack and my right leg would be an inch or more shorter than my left leg and I would start limping (confirmed by several chiropractors). Had to go to the chiropractor every month or even weekly at times in order to be able to walk.

About 5 years ago, I developed neuropathic pain and muscle contraction in in my hands. It was very real and physical. My hands were clawed in, there were very weird clicking sounds when I was moving my fingers to a small degree of mobility they still had. My symptoms were spreading into my elbows, arms, knees and feet. Was struggling with it for 2+ years. Guess what, during that time my back was all of a sudden like new. Not a single problem for 2.5 years. Once I got rid of my hands problem using TMS approach (no surgeries, no pills, no steroids), back pain returned, as well predicted by Sarno. But now I was viewing it as TMS and kept doing my TMS thing. Since then, I have been backpacking in the mountains with 30+ lbs on my back, climbed Mt. Whitney (BTW, I am a 63 years old short and not very athletic woman) and run half-marathons. I took up running as my recovery from pain routine, I never ran even 1oo yards until I was 58 and in pain.

This is what I came to believe.

Your brain is powerful. Pain is not the only implication of suppressed emotions. It can send a pain signal but it can also send muscle spasm signals. Once you get muscle spasms in one place, the other places have to compensate for it. My right hip was putting a lot of imbalanced pressure on my left leg, so my left knee was experiencing real, physical pain from being twisted and getting all extra weight on it. Once my muscle contractions triggered by my brain stopped, my left knee is no longer in pain.

My dystonia (muscle contractions) is documented by the doctors. Even more so, there are no medical procedures to promise any hope for dystonia, it is officially incurable. Thanks to Sarno, I am fully recovered, not only from the pain in my hands and dystonia, but also from the pain in my back. I can do more with my hands than I used to be able to do, same for my back.

Our bodies are strong. We are stronger than we think (quote from Sarno). Here is what I would recommend: there is no harm in taking on TMS. Go all in. Take it seriously, deal with your emotions, anger, early childhood problems - load it all on the table. Give it time, do not set deadlines. If it does not work, you can always find a doctor to cut you up. It is not easy to live with pain, but there are so many people on this forum who lived with pain until there was no pain anymore. One more time: TMS can cause what feels like very physical: spasms, cracking joints, serious swelling, redness of the skin and so on.

And the last thing: yes, you can ignore your doctor's orders, I did just that and never looked back. To do that, see a TMS doctor like Dr. Schubiner or Dr. Geitzen (I saw him before I went full TMS) to make sure that they, not your PT, clear you to do so. Because your PT will never tell you about your TMS as they don't know it exists.
Click to expand...

Wow, I’ve just read this and realised I am literally following the same path, same issues having already known what you dealt with but the comment about the right hip is exactly what i have. The only places left where i feel the muscle contractions are in my hands, feet and right hip and it’s definitely affecting my left leg the position of my knees, feet and toes.

I’ve slowly felt my right hip getting more flexible so hopefully when my brain decides to release it fully it will have a knock on effect to my leg imbalance and feet/toe position.
 
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