Im a little confused about Rotator Cuff injuries and TMS:

[avik]

Never try to "ignore the pain" Avik. It is impossible to do. It is a myth that one can ignore the pain. It is there and it hurt like hell, how can one ignore it?
What you want to do is not fear it. Tell yourself whatever happen, happen. Be an observer. Observe it but do not react to it physically or mentally. It is part of life. Look at it like a small pimple on your face. You don't like to have it but you don't worry about it. The goal it you don't fear it and you have better things to do than worry about it.

Thanks Balto.
Im actually quite good at dealing with the pain.
I didn't fully detail my process above but what I do is first focus on the pain, then accept i/let it "wash over me".
I say ignore because I ultimately do not focus on it.

This thread (for me) is actually less about dealing with the pain and more about just trying to understand the genesis of cuff tears.

 

[balto]

But what if that affects you to your daily life? lifting things, typing at work, doing something so soft as just writing with a pen for a long period. Shoulder gets sore and worse thing is that it creates tension in Neck too.

Keep doing it, it won't kill you. Like TT often said: "If it's too heavy to lift, you wouldn't be able to lift it."
We human can tolerate worst pain than that. These pain symptoms' goal is to create FEAR in order to have your attention and prolong their existence. Fear is their fuel and if somehow you can stop your fear and stop focusing on them, they just slowly disappear.
If you not sure it is tms, why not try to treat it as tms for a month. Devote one month of your life to treat it the mind-body way 100%. Most of us have suffer from tms/anxiety for months and years. One month is such a short time and it will save your life.

 

[Sienna]

Hi Avik,

You are right, yes I read all of them and also Dr. Schubiners, and overcame back pain and fatigue in the past.
But with the shoulder, in the past I only had random crisis when working out at the gym.
But this time it started last year when swimming with a pullboy (could not use legs due to a knee injury), and havent been able to get rid of it yet.
It is true that the subconscious mind can do wonders to hide and come in any shape and symtom, and sometimes when it hurts after just writing I say to myself; that could not make any damage on you!-- but the truth is that the tension is there and I believe that there is some damage in there.
When having the ecography the Doctor saw same inflammation but nothing else.
Would you suggest to forget about conventional medicine and treat it like TMS?

Merry Christmas everyone

 

[avik]

Hi Avik,

You are right, yes I read all of them and also Dr. Schubiners, and overcame back pain and fatigue in the past.
But with the shoulder, in the past I only had random crisis when working out at the gym.
But this time it started last year when swimming with a pullboy (could not use legs due to a knee injury), and havent been able to get rid of it yet.
It is true that the subconscious mind can do wonders to hide and come in any shape and symtom, and sometimes when it hurts after just writing I say to myself; that could not make any damage on you!-- but the truth is that the tension is there and I believe that there is some damage in there.
When having the ecography the Doctor saw same inflammation but nothing else.
Would you suggest to forget about conventional medicine and treat it like TMS?

Merry Christmas everyone

ABSOLUTELY.
I have had every TMS equivalent you can imagine and you what ive learned?
Every time something new pops up I say to my self "youve had so many issues over the past 20 years that you now KNOW were TMS, what are the odds that this new chronic pain you have is not TMS?"
Very low odds.

You did the right thing.
You went to the Dr, you ruled out anything serious, now its time to do what Balto suggested and recognize that the FEAR of the pain is doing a great job at holding your attention and its time to approach this the way you have approached all of your other problems.

I want to be clear that this thread was not about pain management but more about understanding shoulder tears.
I say that because I do have a tear (you do not), and the TMS approach is working for me.

You know what to do here Sienna...go do it!

 

[balto]

This thread (for me) is actually less about dealing with the pain and more about just trying to understand the genesis of cuff tears.

I have overcame hundred of mind body syndromes in my life. I have suffer from numerous symptoms for years. I also work within my community dealing with mind body ills for years. The toughest things to over come is doubt that they are mind body and not structural. I have seen people overcame back pain many times with tms work. But each time back pain came back, they always think structural first, never failed.
It took me years of learning and years of experiencing to get to this point. I truly believe beside poison, virus/pathogens, birth defect, most of what ill us are mind body in origin.

 

[Sienna]

Thanks Avik,

Well I did not take the MRI yet, but now I realise it might be better not to have it as if I read I have tear cuff that will add fuel to the fear of hurting myself.

In fact doctors tell me that the shoulder is not working well because I lack muscle, and this is a vicius cycle as every time I exercises arms I get pain so I stop...

 

[avik]

Thanks Avik,

Well I did not take the MRI yet, but now I realise it might be better not to have it as if I read I have tear cuff that will add fuel to the fear of hurting myself.

In fact doctors tell me that the shoulder is not working well because I lack muscle, and this is a vicius cycle as every time I exercises arms I get pain so I stop...

Isnt it interesting how TMS targets the things we love to do?
Im an avid bodybuilder and I cant tell you how many "injuries" i have had over the past 10-15 years that all proved to by psychogenic in nature.

My mother is unfortunately in the thick of dealing with TMS now too and we had an interesting talk about this last week.
She loves to walk.
Her and my dad walk 5+ miles every day.

Out of the clear blue sky, she developed extreme ankle pain one night, in her sleep and subsequently told me that shes scared to go walking.

Amazing.

 

[mike2014]

Isnt it interesting how TMS targets the things we love to do?
Im an avid bodybuilder and I cant tell you how many "injuries" i have had over the past 10-15 years that all proved to by psychogenic in nature.

My mother is unfortunately in the thick of dealing with TMS now too and we had an interesting talk about this last week.
She loves to walk.
Her and my dad walk 5+ miles every day.

Out of the clear blue sky, she developed extreme ankle pain one night, in her sleep and subsequently told me that shes scared to go walking.

Amazing.

Great point, it does target the things we love doing. There was a fantastic exchange of post about this which I'll have to search for. I'd also go as far as to say, those who are close to a person with TMS are also likely to develop it. After all, our traits are learned from family.

 

[Tennis Tom]

I had it, it went away, it was before discovering TMS--it's archived over at TMS Help if you
"search" with my name and pinched "c6/c7" you'll probably find it. Long story short it was caused by a BAD relationship break-up--see Rahe/Holmes List. Did all the conventional stuff, back then it was neck traction. Hurt like hell, it finally went away. I get twinges of shoulder pain in the other arm now but do my best to ignore it and tell myself it will go away in due course and it does. If it's TMS don't get talked into surgery--odds are good it's TMS, unless you fell out of a fourth story window.

G'luck!
tt/lsmft

 

[Sienna]

Isnt it interesting how TMS targets the things we love to do?
Im an avid bodybuilder and I cant tell you how many "injuries" i have had over the past 10-15 years that all proved to by psychogenic in nature.

My mother is unfortunately in the thick of dealing with TMS now too and we had an interesting talk about this last week.
She loves to walk.
Her and my dad walk 5+ miles every day.

Out of the clear blue sky, she developed extreme ankle pain one night, in her sleep and subsequently told me that shes scared to go walking.

Amazing.

Absolutely true. I love doing sports and specially swimming so now the shoulder tension keeps me away from doing it which creates frustration in me...
I will work on self-talk and visualization to get back into the water!

 

[andy64tms]

Hi Avik,

Maybe your body is just saying:“ take it easy”.
Two years ago I tore my MCL, one of the inner tendons on the knee, it was an accident not TMS. The immediate pain was excruciating, but died down to a dull ache after several minutes. I actually fell off a windsurfer with all my weight against the inner foot. I was amazed and appalled to find this injury is the same as a “clipping” injury that is banned in American football. A “none sporting” fellow will take down an opponent by stamping on the outside of his knee.

My immediate fears were that I would miss the rest of the windsurfing season. I studied the internet to find what level of tear I might have. I was in the category that if you can walk it was considered “minor, take a pain killer, and get on with it”. When six weeks rest for healing time was given, I was very happy and continued windsurfing ignoring this advice. The only thing I did was to get one of those black stretchy supports that gave me mental awareness, a sort of reminder to take it easy. I believe the continued activity promotes healing and my mental fears and worry were replaced with the joy of my hobby. I realize my pain was talking to me as a protection device. Later on in the season I had the same injury twice more, (must be a sort of attraction thing), I just said “bugger” and carried on.

My belief is that when exercising and lifting weights, our muscle actually tear to rebuild themselves. When doing weights my trainer suggested protein within 30 minutes of a workout to aid this process. I would think tendons take longer.

The other aspect is that you might be upset at not being able to work-out, perhaps you place too much importance on your hobby. I constantly have to remind myself: “this is supposed to be fun” when windsurfing as a measure of restraint. Perhaps, just take it easy with the knowledge that it is a minor tear that will heal in time, this worked for me.

I considered my tear a non TMS issue from the start, manageable with a TMS approach, how could it be otherwise for it is a real tear with real pain.

Thank you for your recent posts

 

[fibri]

I have shoulder and arm pain that I think would be diagnosed as rotator cuff injury, based on what I've googled about symptoms. I know it's TMS but can't get rid of it. I gave in to the pain eventually and went to an acupuncturist. He diagnosed possible rotator cuff injury and recommended I do tests. The acupuncture didn't help at all, and I don't plan to do the tests. Silly me, fooling myself.

I know what caused it. I'm in psychotherapy and last summer I had a memory of an event of physical bullying when I was a child, that involved me lying on the ground on my back and having my arms pinned to the ground. So, wrist held down while my arm is pushed back and my hand is at shoulder level. I remembered this one night and the pain started next day. It is precisely this movement that is causing me pain now. I've had it for seven months now.

It was not a physical injury (I was on vacation when it started, and swimming every day, but I'm not energetic and don't to any high-impact sport, certainly not enough to cause an injury). The problem is that the pain persists. I know it is because I have other stressors in my life now (work) and I also have unresolved issues that the therapy is addressing. And I know that the TMS pain might as well settle on my shoulder/arm as anywhere else.

So, even though I know the why, and fully believe it, the pain is still there (enough to keep me on daily painkillers). I wish it would stop, but realistically I know that if it wasn't that it would be some other pain, so I try to tolerate it. And indeed I also continue to get other TMS symptoms, as well (foot pain, hip pain, back pain, blocked ears/deafness, and allergies, and headaches, and ....).

What's impossible for me is to ignore the shoulder/arm pain. Most of the time it's ok, but I know that if I twist and stretch my arm, the pain will have me doubled over in agony, so of course I try to avoid those movements. I'm not a masochist! Unfortunately, that awareness and fear keeps me focusing on my pain, which is not good for TMS.

My psychotherapist is specialized in psychosomatic pain, but unfortunately has a slightly different approach than Sarno, so we're not completely on the same wavelength about the cause of my pain (he reads it more as a message from my body to be kind to myself, etc.). There are no TMS therapists in my region (Belgium). I've tried to get him to read Sarno's books but that didn't work

I would really appreciate if anyone here could reinforce my belief that this is TMS, not structural. I know it, but please tell my brain!!

 

[Tennis Tom]

My psychotherapist is specialized in psychosomatic pain, but unfortunately has a slightly different approach than Sarno, so we're not completely on the same wavelength about the cause of my pain...

... (he reads it more as a message from my body to be kind to myself, etc.).

...There are no TMS therapists in my region (Belgium). I've tried to get him to read Sarno's books but that didn't work

I would really appreciate if anyone here could reinforce my belief that this is TMS, not structural. I know it, but please tell my brain!!

You have a GOOD grasp of the TMS theory! But, sometimes you have to change the environment that creates the defense mechanism of TMS to ameliorate the symptoms. I have documented my "shoulder," "c6-c7", "frozen shoulder" at the TMS Help site and some here if you care to do a "search". It was really painful and lasted a long time, but didn't get better until the bad relationship break-up got better.

The advice your therapist gave you is in accordance with TMS : be good to yourself. Give yourself rewards, maybe a nice bottle of wine, or a gallon of ice cream.

Your TMS perfectionism is rearing it's head in that you say "...he has a slightly different approach then Sarno". I'm all for seeing TMS expert practitioners, so if you feel that's a stumbling block Skyping or phone work with a TMS therapist works just as effectively.

You may have to modify your life, (or usually the people in it), for your TMS/ shoulder to fade away, or, maybe not--that's the acceptance thing. But, you have an excellent grasp of the Good Doctor's TMS theory, that's step one.

Your shoulder/TMS can and will definitely fade away, mine did, it was pre-TMS enlightenment, but in retrospect it TMS was the volume control for my pain. Once you get the hang of the TMS thing, subsequent protective/attacks get easier to handle and will be banished faster, it becomes a game with the gremlin and can actually be fun to play--right.

G'luck!
tt

 

[fibri]

Hey TT, thanks so much for your encouragement. I have a hard time with the "be good to yourself" approach because for me that always translates into eating unhealthy food, and I've been doing that so much that I've put on a lot of weight in the last year. So now my treats just make me feel crap about myself . I quit drinking and smoking years ago (and I have NO desire to go back there!) so apart from food I find it hard to identify things that are a reward. I struggle with anxiety, so anything involving being with other people drains my energy. I go for regular long walks while listening to audiobooks, and enjoy that.

Thanks for the reassurance about my grasp of TMS theory. I've read all the books, some many times, and I do feel I know the theory well. Not so good on the practice though! I never want to do the work (affirmations, journalling, etc.). I think it's because the stuff I'm handling in therapy is hard, and outside of my sessions I'm reluctant to go into those places. TMS pain is easier to deal with than thinking about other stuff. I've been on partial sick leave (working limited hours) for over a year (my dx is burnout, anxiety, heart problems, although I know it's all just another way of saying "TMS"). On top of that, my company is restructuring and I'm trying to secure that I will still have a job at the end of it (this has been going on for nearly two years). I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, because I need to keep proving my value, but the stress of being at work really knocks me out and I need a lot of rest.... It's a constant balancing act.

I know that Sarno says you don't really need to dig into your past to get better, but I'm finding that it really helps you identify your anxiety/stress triggers, which reduces your stress. That doesn't mean it reduces TMS however, as I think the pain is just a substitute for the stress and anxiety. One goes up, the other goes down. They play a merry little dance together.

You're right about the need to change the environment that causes TMS. I think this won't stop until my job situation is resolved one way or another. Sometimes I think I should just quit my job, but the hit to my income would be severe, and at 55 finding a new job won't be easy. It's still an option I'm considering though. But I'm hanging in there because if, eventually, my company decides to fire me I'd get some severance pay. The strain is wearing me down though...

I hate to be a whiner, but getting all this off my back (or shoulder!) makes me feel better already! I often wish I was one of those people who rarely gets bogged down by life, and falls asleep the moment their head hits the pillow (yep, there are some people like that!!!). It makes me suspect that all of us TMSers, or many of us, have childhood issues that have caused deep-seated anxiety or fears, that get triggered by situations we encounter as an adult, and as a result we can never fully relax. And that these fears are what cause our goodism, perfectionism, etc. I know that Sarno refers to those things as personality traits, but I suspect there's more to it than that.

I wonder if that is what distinguishes the people who get cured of TMS and stay cured, from those who get symptoms again and again for years?

 

[Tennis Tom]

...but the stress of being at work really knocks me out and I need a lot of rest.... It's a constant balancing act.

Thanks for the background Fibri. I don't have time at the moment to say any more but one quick thought. Maybe it's NOT rest you need, maybe you need more exercise. I don't know you so maybe you already exercise. If not, regular aerobic exercise for thirty minutes a day will help balance your mindbody and help you sleep much better. The modern business grind requires too much sitting in a chair looking at a TV screen (computer monitor). We are not evolutionarily designed to be as sedentary as the office environment has provided. Are you getting enough exercise?

 

[Susan1111]

@fibri where to begin....as long as you believe TMS pain is easier to deal with, guess what I believe it says okay no problem you asked for it you got it! You see if I understand correctly we have the pain for that exact reason as its easier for us to deal with the physical pain than the repressed emotions that caused it to begin with. So with that said get real mad at the pain tell it to get lost and start thinking psychological. It's not okay!!!!

I so understand that digging up the past can be difficult but it can also free you. Loving yourself/treating yourself means junk food? I don't think so! Loving yourself means treating yourself with love and care feeding both your body and mind with love and kindness not bad thoughts or junk food.

BTW some people fall asleep quickly as they've become goodvat escape...believe me the grass is not greener you only think so. You'd be surprised what goes on behind ball the closed doors.

My advice be good to yourself as you would a child that looks up to you for support and care. Perhaps it means leaving your comfort zone and journaling ( I was resistant too) but I'm loving it...no rules I write what I want when I want!
Click around this Forum there is an amazing amount of info you never know what might resonate with you.

Most importantly be good to yourself!
Hope something ibsaid helps.

Warmly, Susan

 

[Tennis Tom]

OK, if a gallon of ice cream and a quart of wine aren't in the cards, how 'bout treating yourself to some Skype or telephone sessions with a TMS therapist or practitioner for a reward. There's many of them listed here and maybe talking to one who fully understands TMS theory could get you over the hump.

 

[fibri]

Thanks TT and Susan1111 for your warm support and good advice.
TT, I dislike all forms of sport but I listened to what you have to say and this week I got down on my knees to scrub floor tiles that haven't been thoroughly cleaned in years. I find this much more satisfying than sport - it's still good exercise and I see the result on my tiles

 

[BruceMC]

I don't think it's a coincidence that my rotator cuff pain occurs on the same side I had a so-called "herniated disk" in 2002-2003. Same left side where I developed CTS while doing PT for my herniated disk. In fact, all my aches and pains and rashes and what-have-yous always occur on my left side. It's obvious they're all part of the same pain syndrome that started not when my mother died in 2001, but six-month later when the lawyer signed the paper giving me her house. In retrospect it's so obvious that all my pain conditions, including the rotator cuff tear, are part of the general systemic condition that Dr Sarno diagnosed as TMS. Funny thing happened about 10 days back: left shoulder started to hurt and then my left buttocks and leg developed sciatica. What was going on? I'd started talking to a real estate agent about selling my late mother's house! Stress and guilt. Once you're on to how it works, TMS will never fool you again, but it sure will try. I'd have to agree with Fred that most rotator cuff tears are TMS pure and simple. Sure there's a little tear there, but that minor structural anomaly provides a place for you psyche to locate physical pain to distract you from facing more threatening psychological problems like grief and anger. The poet W.H. Auden didn't call ours 'The Age of Anxiety' for nothing.

 

[BruceMC]

I don't think it's a coincidence that my rotator cuff pain occurs on the same side I had a so-called "herniated disk" in 2002-2003. Same same left side where I developed CTS while doing PT for my herniated disk. In fact, all my aches and pains and rashes and what have yous always occur on my left side. It's obvious they're all part of the same pain syndrome that started not when my mother died in 2001, but six-month later when the lawyer signed the paper giving me her house. In retrospect it's so obvious that all my pain conditions, including the rotator cuff tear, are part of the general systemic condition that Dr Sarno diagnosed as TMS. Funny thing happened about 10 days back: left shoulder started to hurt and then my left buttocks and leg developed sciatica. What was going on? I'd started talking to a real estate agent about selling my late mother's house! Stress and guilt. Once you're on to how it works, TMS will never fool you again, but it sure will try. I'd have to agree with Fred that most rotator cuff tears are TMS pure and simple. Sure there's a little tear there, but that minor structural anomaly provides a place for you psyche to locate physical pain to distract you from facing more threatening psychological problems like grief and anger. The poet W.H. Auden didn't call ours 'The Age of Anxiety' for nothing.

I don't think it's any coincidence that TMS locates all my aches and pain on my left side either. That's the same side where I shattered my heel in 1989-90 and it was excruciatingly painful for 6 months or so. In other words, I think the pain pathways in my brain were already programmed and in place after my injury just waiting for a stressful life event to trigger the onset of symptoms. Have to be in the correct conflicted state of mind too following the death of a relative (in this case, my mother) or something else equally catastrophic contributing to an anxious state of mind. That idea Dr Sarno mentions in Healing Back Pain about a pot of water boiling over sounds more and more accurate, like so many of Dr Sarno's other wise observations gleaned from his clinical practice.