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Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by hopefuldan, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. hopefuldan

    hopefuldan New Member

    In the book "The Divided Mind" Sarno points out that the symptoms we develop are generally symptoms we know about. For example, things like back pain, carpal tunnel, ulcers, etc... are all symptoms that are very much in our society's consciousness. Since we know about them and they work for TMS, they can even cause an epidemic much like ulcers in the 70's or carpal tunnel in the 90's. Our TMS mind needs a symptom and so we use one that is known to us - often times a popular one at that time.

    My question is, what if we develop a symptom that we have never heard of? In my case, that is symptom is tinnitus. I definitely fall into the TMS personality type: repressed, anxious, rage, unresolved issues, chronic worrier, perfectionist, obsessive, etc... and have had migraines and other TMS symptoms that make sense to me, but tinnitus does not make sense to me. I suddenly developed tinnitus after a very intense few years of off the charts general anxiety and even more intense few months of the anxiety ramping up to epic levels. How and why would my mind use a symptom that I have never even heard of? That does not make sense to me. Is that even possible? Maybe tinnitus is not TMS since it seems impossible for my mind to use a symptom that was not even on my radar.

    Thanks for your feedback.
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  2. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    It's entirely possible. I'd never heard of my problem before and I'm sure that is true for many others here. There is probably something symbolic about the location and type of issue we suffer from and that is best uncovered by gentle work with our shadow selves and by examining our emotions. Curiosity is a fine healing tool so I would encourage a playful exploration.

    TMS is mysterious and esoteric. That is both part of its charm and part of its madness. I'll be interested in the thoughts of others.
  3. Lainey

    Lainey Well known member

    HI hopefuldan and Plum
    Tinnitus is one of the issues I have dealt with for a number of years. Recently I came to the conclusion that the tinnitus is also a form of TMS that I manifest. Moving along with my other pain issues. Yet, I also know there is a lot I do not want to hear. (More to the point, no to hear my own thoughts and comments from others regarding the issues I am dealing with.) Tinnitus makes sense to me.
  4. Lainey

    Lainey Well known member

    That is corrected to read 'not to hear my thoughts 'etc.
  5. andy64tms

    andy64tms Well known member

    Hi Hopefuldan,

    Lovely words from Plum as usual, don’t forget the other symptoms, traits like perfectionism and frugality and being overly obsessive to name a few. Mental symptoms don’t always cause physical pain.

    Dan, Lainey, I also have Tinnitus tied in with the onset of deafness. I have yet to believe its TMS. I agree with Dan since It does not give me pain or grief, but is more of an irritation than anything else. So I have put this on the back burner for now. TMS has no logic, no rules and can be very unfair, it would certainly choose a symptom off your radar. I am definitely getting deafer and my wife is really getting fed up with me, but I just don’t want to face having a hearing attachment to contend with. Perhaps this is the deeper reason for not hearing; fear. Reference Laineys’ “not to hear”.

    My lovely wife just left to go shopping, so instead of the usual “goodbye honey”, I said: “I would miss her while she is gone, come back soon.” There is always a deeper meaning behind words and thoughts, yes I have good intentions.santahat
  6. hopefuldan

    hopefuldan New Member

    Hi Any64tms, Thanks for the great feedback. I did not mention perfectionism, frugality and being overly obsessive, but you sure are correct, those are traits I have and are huge part of my life. I am glad your tinnitus is does not cause you grief, it does me, which is why I thought it could be TMS. Tinnitus will often times overwhelm me to the point where I can't think of much else... I guess that is why I thought TMS. I think my obsessive mind makes more out of tinnitus than is really there - truth is it's more than likely just an annoyance and all the stress is not necessary - but if I can find something to fret about, I will :)

    As for your hearing loss, I recently tried a pair of hearing aids that were very comfortable and worked great. I wore them all day and not a single one of my loved one's noticed I was even wearing then... they are that small. Also, they say most people that are getting older are perceived as being "out of it", "forgetful" or "doddery" when the truth is they just can't hear very well. If more older people wore hearing aids they would be much more in tune with the world around them.
    andy64tms likes this.
  7. Lainey

    Lainey Well known member

    Hi to thread folk again.
    I have had tinnitus for a long time. It actually comes and goes. Many years back, but during a time I was dealing with tinnitus, I had a hearing test and my hearing was excellent. I've aged and I am sure my hearing has deteriorated but I'm not sure it is part and parcel of the tinnitus symptom. The tinnitus still comes and goes, it changes pitch, it sometimes disappears. I have learned to ignore it most of the time. It's keeping me company at the moment while I am writing this post. Sigh. Our symptoms certainly are persistent. I'm going back to ignoring this symptom once I leave this thread. (I hope). Curious if anyone who uses a hearing aid AND has had tinnitus has found relief.
    andy64tms likes this.
  8. andy64tms

    andy64tms Well known member

    Hi Lainey, Dan

    There are quite a few threads on the TMS Help website regarding Tinnitus. Also you may want to track down Fred Amir, I think he has books and tinnitus may be included in his recovery program. I am assuming you have hunted this forum. I think the reason I doubt Tinnitus being TMS is that I cannot perceive the mechanics of it. My TMS has always been about something I understand or can have explained to me.

    No doubt I will discuss this with an ear nose and throat specialist because I definitely need a hearing aid, as in: “please turn the volume up, honey”. Happiness is having ownership of the remote these days how sad! Thanks for your insights Dan at 69 I am one of the older. :)
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  9. hopefuldan

    hopefuldan New Member

    I had sent an email to Alan Gordon (the Director of the The Pain Psychology Center in Los Angeles and the founder of this TMS wiki I believe) to ask his thoughts of tinnitus. He said "tinnitus is definitely tms". Not sure his thoughts of developing a symptom that the suffer has never heard of though... maybe I will follow up with him and ask.
    andy64tms likes this.
  10. MindBodyPT

    MindBodyPT Beloved Grand Eagle

    Recall that Alan Gordon and other younger TMS practitioners don't subscribe to the same exact theory that Sarno explains. They use a more neuroscience-y explanation for everything and less Freudian theory...I've taken the course by Alan and Dr. Schubiner. It is not a prerequisite to know about the symptom prior to getting it for it to be TMS. Recall that a lot of TMS is generated by unconscious processes (whether you subscribe to the Freudian/Sarno theories or the newer neuroscience theories or both), it's impossible to say where the symptom actually came from. Recall also that often TMS develops from a brief "physical" cause (like maybe temporary tinnitus from a loud concert or event), where the TMS then piggybacks onto the short-lived physical issue. This makes a ton of sense in terms of how the brain works!
    Dfw, Lainey and andy64tms like this.
  11. hopefuldan

    hopefuldan New Member

    MindBodyPT, you raise an excellent point. I had not thought of that. I suppose most people experience tinnitus from time to time. Looking back, I have experienced an occasional temporary ringing or buzzing since as long back as I can remember. It usually goes away as quickly as it comes and has never bothered me, I just thought it was something everyone experienced. I think you could definitely be on to something in that I "developed tinnitus" after hearing the buzzing a little louder and longer than I was used to. It freaked me out and I became obsessed and intensely worried ever since. It is an excellent distraction if you think at it from a TMS point of view.

    On another note: I did not realize Alan Gordon and Sarno had a different approach to TMS therapy. I am fairly new to TMS, I have been reading Sarno's books and then I stumbled upon this wiki and Alan Gordon's stuff. I have not started a recovery program yet and I was thinking I would do this one: http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/painrecovery/, but does anyone have a better suggestion? I fully subscribe to Sarno's ideas and feel I very much fit the mold but I am struggling to know what to do to get better. I am looking for a program to follow or perhaps a Freud/Sarno type therapist to guide me.

    Thanks so much!
    andy64tms likes this.
  12. andy64tms

    andy64tms Well known member

    Hi Dan,

    This conversation is interesting, I see you have asked: “How do I know tinnitus TMS', in a previous post. You got a good answer from therapist, but the question still lingers:

    Let’s get into belief theory, the basic premise of TMS is you have to believe 100% that your ailment is TMS to heal. I have heard this over and over, and this is what I call a TMS dilemma because it has conflict built in. Even a decree from Henry 8th could not change the minds of Catholics of merry old England, and he had the clout of executions to threaten them with.

    Since you need to believe that Tinnitus is TMS, I would consider the following steps:

    Start by stating (inwardly). I may come to believe this is true.

    Investigate the workings of Tinnitus. How much of it is pathological vs how much is controlled by the nervous system. With Tinnitus you could research, and conclude that there is no actual real bell in your head OR conclude that there is a real bell in the form of an anvil and stirrup causing the ringing. You could then conclude the anvil and stirrup is an integral component of the Nervous and Brain System and thus may become a TMS issue.

    As part of ruling out the physical it may then be necessary to try physical cures:

    Look for TMS clues about the TMS condition. I just read on the internet the words: “Tinnitus is the perception of Noise”. This is a huge clue since they are stating it’s imaginary. Sometime the description is even more blatant when sellers of remedies use the words “Unknown causes”. This may appeal to your sense of fairness, and you buy the product anyway. How much do you like the comment: ”We don’t f..k..g know, please send us some money anyway”. This is all Hypothetical, have fun with it.:)

    As part of ruling out the physical it may then be necessary to visit a Dr.

    When I had my hearing test in 2005 the doctor actually said: “There is no Known cure for Tinnitus, just tune out the ringing”. So this is what I did.

    As I have progressed with TMS, I have come to realize the need for these investigations diminishing, as I think of the phrase "possibly-maybe" to the question: " Is this TMS?"

    Finally and most important is investigating the psychological aspect.

    I agree with MindbodyPT, Investigate Allen Gordon’s approach: You could take a couple of hours to scan through the Program or follow it exactly. Even though I have not participated, I can see it is a wonderful presentation full of humor and TMS insights.

    P.S. Our thanks go to Forrest who is the founder of this great web site.santahat
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
    Lainey and hopefuldan like this.
  13. andy64tms

    andy64tms Well known member

    Hi Dan, Lainey, MindbodyPT, Plum

    My career was in the Electro-mechanical field, and I had the chance to be hooked up with a head set to an oscilloscope, (or some such device). I was able to establish exactly the Mega Hertz of my ringing. I remember being able to cancel out the ringing with the control knob.

    But I am a cynic and my aversion to attachments stops me from investigating a “tinnitus cancelling device” described as follows:

    “The pleasant sounds that play from the headphones aim to help patients decrease their tinnitus symptoms. Over time, use of noise cancelling headphones for tinnitus sound therapy may decrease both the frequency and the duration of ringing in the ears.”

    TMS question: Is my cynicism and aversion a TMS repression from finding a cure? Fun stuff..:)
    santahat Happy Christmas
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2017
  14. MindBodyPT

    MindBodyPT Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hey Andy,

    Here's what i'd say to that- first of all, I think acknowledging your feelings of cynicism and aversion mean that you aren't repressing those feelings! So not necessarily. So I don't think just acknowledging you feel that way would prevent you from finding a cure. Second, all TMS symptoms ARE physically happening in the body (aka the nerve in your ear is firing)...though the true cause is neural pathways in the brain. Same goes for back pain- the nerves in your back are firing or the muscle is in spasm but the cause is central (brain). You could certainly find a "cure" for tinnitus by physical means though it may be placebo or temporary in nature if the underlying cause is TMS (or symptom imperative could occur). Same goes for any other TMS symptom, i've had plenty of patients "cured" of pain from physical methods that were probably placebo. Nothing wrong with that, it just may not produce as permanent a cure as TMS since it doesn't target the underlying cause.
    andy64tms likes this.
  15. andy64tms

    andy64tms Well known member

    Hi Mindbody.

    There is a deeper meaning to my Rhetorical question:


    TMS question: Is my cynicism and aversion a TMS repression from finding a cure? Fun stuff.. upload_2017-12-23_14-41-22.gif


    TMS question: Is my cynicism and aversion a TMS ploy to repress me from finding a cure that is physical in nature (in the context of buying Cancelling headphones)? Fun stuff.

    I agree my cynicism and aversion are not suppressed. My One Repressed emotion post may explain further.santahat

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