Feeling confused and jaded

[Vindawg]

This is probably going to get some backlash and I don’t want to anger anyone I’m just really confused here on the journey with this as I move deeper into it.

I’ve been doing TMS work for a while now. It has been a journey that began in 2016 when I first read The Divided Mind where I think a seed was planted. Eventually a couple of years ago some mysterious pain issues had me returning to John Sarno and the app Curable.

I’ve been doing a ton of journaling, meditating and exercises for over a year. A lot has been surfacing and in ways getting harder and more amped up.

It has been interesting to see things occur such as the pain shifting around and some of the things the experts say will happen…

However, right now I’m having trouble with it. A few months ago I saw a pretty famous TMS specialist quasi celebrity in this field who opened up a new center near me. I paid a lot of money for a consultation and the follow ups were also really pricey. At the follow ups he would join the zoom meeting very late and his response would be “uh huh uh huh uh huh sooooooo what does that tell you?” Okay that will be $250 for a less than an hour follow up meeting that the TMS celebrity doctor was consistently late for . There would also be sort of a hesitancy to say too much on their end. A lot of it was just a doctor giving some reassurance. At his practice on his website they offer things like supplements and taking feces samples for gut microbiome health. All of this testing and the supplementation they offer is also really expensive. None of this is covered by insurance either. It also seems to contradict the whole “it’s not structural thing” by regularly taking these samples and providing a ton of supplements. Another celebrity doctor of the TMS world has just joined this practice too and an initial consultation with him is over a thousand dollars for a zoom meeting about things we have read about.

There are other characters out there with these programs that are contradicting themselves along the way while charging insane amounts of money. We need them and their expensive zoom support groups or else we won’t get better! It has currently made me find it hard to believe this stuff which is really at the core of a lot of this work. There are a lot of these celebrity snake oil salesman around TMS preying on people’s vulnerability when things are dire. Perhaps there is a lot of science proving things but there seem to be a lot of people out there taking advantage of that and then it is much harder to believe in or to what degree to believe in it.

I’m currently dealing with a very upsetting diagnosis that many would say is likely TMS but it is recognized medically as a chronic inflammatory disease with no cure and the structural component of it is very visible though yes emotions are likely a major player and at the root of it all.

My symptoms first began with eye twitching and issues with vision and I was laughing like”oh here it is! The TMS!” Then one day a piece of glass flew into my eye and I thought it was just psychosomatic so I stayed calm and tried to meditate it away and then I was like I better get this checked out. The doctor pulled out a giant shard of glass from my eye and told me if it moved a little more I would be bleeding from my eyeball and it would be all scratched up.

So I kept having these eye issues. Then later on I’m diagnosed with rosacea which seems to be flairing quite a bit. All of the information on this disease online is really upsetting and filled with contradictions and diets and all of that . I have been a mess with this diagnosis. Then I’m sitting there and my eyes are twitching and I’m like “it’s just tms” but no this is actually ocular rosacea and I need an antibiotic.

I want to believe and need to believe in mind body syndrome with this but I’m finding it very hard and to what degree there is that belief.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Damn, this is a tough one @Vindawg. And I absolutely want to address both of your issues, which are big ones, but I'm just quickly checking in before I get on with my day, and neither of these are easy. Rest assured, I will get back to you, and perhaps in the meantime others will be able to address your personal situation with the eye injury and subsequent Dx.

~Jan

 

[Baseball65]

A lot of it was just a doctor giving some reassurance.

No one can give you that and I always am astonished at the fail rate of people who go to TMS professionals

At his practice on his website they offer things like supplements and taking feces samples for gut microbiome health

Right there..proof positive, they have lost the fundamentals of SARNO's work and are on a lark...placebo, distraction BS

There are a lot of these celebrity snake oil salesman around TMS preying on people’s vulnerability when things are dire.

Yep... It pisses me off! But I never have gone to one, though I thought about it early in recovery. So glad I didn't

I have been recovered from TMS since '98 or '99 (check my story... I don't think about it much)... I have had it try to come back, but it has always been beaten back by simply returning to the TEXT of SARNO's work and maybe talking to a friend here on the forum or any of my numerous friends who have recovered in my own social circle (it pays to spread the word)

Most of the time this is like that game "Indian Poker"... the reason for my TMS is so Fing obvious to everybody but me.. I can't see it!...hiding in plain sight. Many times it is something I don't want to hear... "You hate your Job.... the gal your dating is triggering this.... You aren't OK with something you really love"
IF I was Paying someone, they might be loathe to point that out...if they piss me off, I might stop paying them and going there, right?

Just like religious beliefs, as soon as MONEY comes into play people's intentions and outcomes might be seriously compromised. Hell, I study the Bible and the reason the Gospel of Mark was re-written (tempered) into Matthew and Luke was...it was too intense and most people wouldn't follow it!!!

So. I have always found that people without a horse in the race are more likely to point me in the right direction. Maybe some of these people charging for treatment have good intentions, but I have perused the work of a few of them and always caught that 'thing' that keeps it from being 'Sarno Pure'... usually some nutrition BS,exercise stuff or some complicated way of re-explaining my ANGER, Rage and shame that are the ultimate cause.

I do not meditate. I do not do any special exercise beyond what might make me a better baseball player. I eat sort of 'meh?', and I smoke.....but I absolutely am pain free. No 'journaling' (make lists of anger inducers) No Neural Pathways (But I have broken a lot of plates) No Monitoring my emotions... Only one matters. The rest are all secondary and tertiary. It's about RAGE..and paying somebody would only make it worse.

It's between You and God and maybe a trusted someone. When I say God, I mean Your God, not a particular one.

 

[Vindawg]

No one can give you that and I always am astonished at the fail rate of people who go to TMS professionals

Right there..proof positive, they have lost the fundamentals of SARNO's work and are on a lark...placebo, distraction BS
Yep... It pisses me off! But I never have gone to one, though I thought about it early in recovery. So glad I didn't

I have been recovered from TMS since '98 or '99 (check my story... I don't think about it much)... I have had it try to come back, but it has always been beaten back by simply returning to the TEXT of SARNO's work and maybe talking to a friend here on the forum or any of my numerous friends who have recovered in my own social circle (it pays to spread the word)

Most of the time this is like that game "Indian Poker"... the reason for my TMS is so Fing obvious to everybody but me.. I can't see it!...hiding in plain sight. Many times it is something I don't want to hear... "You hate your Job.... the gal your dating is triggering this.... You aren't OK with something you really love"
IF I was Paying someone, they might be loathe to point that out...if they piss me off, I might stop paying them and going there, right?

Just like religious beliefs, as soon as MONEY comes into play people's intentions and outcomes might be seriously compromised. Hell, I study the Bible and the reason the Gospel of Mark was re-written (tempered) into Matthew and Luke was...it was too intense and most people wouldn't follow it!!!

So. I have always found that people without a horse in the race are more likely to point me in the right direction. Maybe some of these people charging for treatment have good intentions, but I have perused the work of a few of them and always caught that 'thing' that keeps it from being 'Sarno Pure'... usually some nutrition BS,exercise stuff or some complicated way of re-explaining my ANGER, Rage and shame that are the ultimate cause.

I do not meditate. I do not do any special exercise beyond what might make me a better baseball player. I eat sort of 'meh?', and I smoke.....but I absolutely am pain free. No 'journaling' (make lists of anger inducers) No Neural Pathways (But I have broken a lot of plates) No Monitoring my emotions... Only one matters. The rest are all secondary and tertiary. It's about RAGE..and paying somebody would only make it worse.

It's between You and God and maybe a trusted someone. When I say God, I mean Your God, not a particular one.

Thank you. I appreciate this a lot.

 

[Cactusflower]

I agree, there are always people trying to reinvent the wheel to make a buck on their own.. but it’s also true that what works for some does not work for others. Heck, Sarno sent some of his patients to psychotherapy when he knew they needed it.
TMS specialists will never “cure” you. They can guide you through techniques, they can provide support, but like any specialist, not all are good nor will everyone’s approach work for every person. You need to recognize that you are ultimately the only person who can do this inner work and that you will try things and eventually figure out what works for you.
But like chasing doctors, chasing a tms cure is handing over your power to someone instead of claiming it for yourself. My first therapist/coach was with a “famous” tms clinic - people have loved their therapists from there. Mine was a waste of time. I was angry at spending so much $$. I eventually tried someone else, but her methods did not help the supreme anxiety I was in , nor did we ever really discuss deeper issues.
I realized the greatest help was coming from simply being supported by someone (who eventually became tms informed) and my current non-tms psychotherapist. I even see a physical therapist who is an amazing support. Now most folks would say that going to pt is “against” some set of magical tms rules, but it works for me.
I honestly don’t see anyone saying that tms folks HAVE to use a paid program or MUST seek “their” help. So many give absolutely freely of their time, but many do get paid (and so they should, it’s their job).
Don’t let this back experience discourage you. Sure, feel pissed off at wasted money and a frustrating experience, but you CAN get help for free (or low cost).
Sarno’s books, Claire Weekes, the two free programs on this website, this forum, support from YouTubers like Dan Buglio who is there with 10 minutes of support and encouragement for free every day. He repeatedly says you can do this work all on your own.
Know that some folks have conditions that may be PARTLY mind/body eg. thyroid diseases, RA, and medication plus a tms approach help.
My suggestion: start one of the free tms programs here and see where it takes you. No cost, don’t need 100% belief to start. Just see what happens.

 

[Bonnard]

Hello @Vindawg ,

I want to pick up on this part:

.... I’m currently dealing with a very upsetting diagnosis that many would say is likely TMS but it is recognized medically as a chronic inflammatory disease with no cure and the structural component of it is very visible though yes emotions are likely a major player and at the root of it all....

Your situation is different than folks who have TMS symptoms that present as, for example, back pain. Those folks are told by doctors that there is a cure and it often involves surgery, steroids, nerve blockers, or some other invasive procedure.

Since there is no cure here, there doesn't seem to be any incentive to follow the mainstream diagnosis and treatment...because they're not offering treatment. Doctors are reporting to you that there is no cure.
(You didn't mention if there are short-term medications that will help with symptoms. But, let's leave that aside for now. I don't think it would change things that much anyway.)

I'm not trying to minimize this in any way. I don't know how I'd be dealing with this. It's an extremely rough set of circumstances!!

How about fully committing to a personal TMS program? Take the resources and suggestions that are out there and put together something that is reasonable for you, both in terms of timeline and practices.
(Reasonable and workable are important because it's easy to try to be the perfect TMS-er and take on too much.)
You deserve this, and it's the only way you'll be able to answer that nagging set of questions you're struggling hard with: Is this all TMS? Part TMS? What is really going on here?

You mentioned quite a few resources and practices that have helped you in some way in the past: Dr. Sarno's book, The Divided Mind; the Curable app; journaling, meditation, etc.
Some of those are keepers, and some may need to be reworked or dropped. There are other practices you may want to try.
You've learned, with some significant frustration and disillusionment, that a TMS specialist is not for you. That's not part of what comes next in any way for you.

I wish you well!

 

[Bonnard]

@Vindawg

I get that frustration with the TMS specialist. It's so clear that wasn't something that would work for you. Since letting go of TMS symptoms is so personal, seeing a TMS specialist reminds me of seeing a therapist.

There are plenty of people who report back that the therapist was not helpful, and kept asking vague questions like, "How does that make you feel?" and that it was a waste of time and money.

There are others, like me, who report back that therapy was one of the most important, life-changing experiences they have had and there was/could not be a substitute for it.
Dr. Sarno suggested that some folks really needed therapy to move forward and eventually let go of symptoms.

There are so many factors when seeing a therapist or a TMS specialist. Since the work involves internal work for the client, the chemistry between provider and client is critical; trust is critical; style is critical; having clear goals and referring back to them is important.
(For example, my therapist presented things in a pace and manner that made perfect sense to me. She challenged me and it felt right. She related and affirmed sometimes and that felt right.
I raved about how good she was, and one time asked her how her other clients related to her, and she said it was a mixed bag that included one recent client who found he couldn't work with her and asked for someone else in the practice, and another client who just quit therapy!)

I think your experience, as negative as it was, might not be the experience of the next person who goes to that same specialist. Someone else might find real growth there.

There's one other red flag here: Fixating on negative past experiences and falling into self-pity are two things that really set TMS folks back. However possible, we need to avoid those traps if and when they come up.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Couple of recent posts worth checking out - both are about the process:

https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/left-hip-pain-gone.27576/#post-142847 (Left hip pain gone)

https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/a-programmers-guide-to-tms.27562/ (A programmers guide to TMS)
(this one links to an off-site blog, def worth reading).

 

[Vindawg]

I agree, there are always people trying to reinvent the wheel to make a buck on their own.. but it’s also true that what works for some does not work for others. Heck, Sarno sent some of his patients to psychotherapy when he knew they needed it.
TMS specialists will never “cure” you. They can guide you through techniques, they can provide support, but like any specialist, not all are good nor will everyone’s approach work for every person. You need to recognize that you are ultimately the only person who can do this inner work and that you will try things and eventually figure out what works for you.
But like chasing doctors, chasing a tms cure is handing over your power to someone instead of claiming it for yourself. My first therapist/coach was with a “famous” tms clinic - people have loved their therapists from there. Mine was a waste of time. I was angry at spending so much $$. I eventually tried someone else, but her methods did not help the supreme anxiety I was in , nor did we ever really discuss deeper issues.
I realized the greatest help was coming from simply being supported by someone (who eventually became tms informed) and my current non-tms psychotherapist. I even see a physical therapist who is an amazing support. Now most folks would say that going to pt is “against” some set of magical tms rules, but it works for me.
I honestly don’t see anyone saying that tms folks HAVE to use a paid program or MUST seek “their” help. So many give absolutely freely of their time, but many do get paid (and so they should, it’s their job).
Don’t let this back experience discourage you. Sure, feel pissed off at wasted money and a frustrating experience, but you CAN get help for free (or low cost).
Sarno’s books, Claire Weekes, the two free programs on this website, this forum, support from YouTubers like Dan Buglio who is there with 10 minutes of support and encouragement for free every day. He repeatedly says you can do this work all on your own.
Know that some folks have conditions that may be PARTLY mind/body eg. thyroid diseases, RA, and medication plus a tms approach help.
My suggestion: start one of the free tms programs here and see where it takes you. No cost, don’t need 100% belief to start. Just see what happens.

Thank you

 

[Vindawg]

Hello @Vindawg ,

I want to pick up on this part:


Your situation is different than folks who have TMS symptoms that present as, for example, back pain. Those folks are told by doctors that there is a cure and it often involves surgery, steroids, nerve blockers, or some other invasive procedure.

Since there is no cure here, there doesn't seem to be any incentive to follow the mainstream diagnosis and treatment...because they're not offering treatment. Doctors are reporting to you that there is no cure.
(You didn't mention if there are short-term medications that will help with symptoms. But, let's leave that aside for now. I don't think it would change things that much anyway.)

I'm not trying to minimize this in any way. I don't know how I'd be dealing with this. It's an extremely rough set of circumstances!!

How about fully committing to a personal TMS program? Take the resources and suggestions that are out there and put together something that is reasonable for you, both in terms of timeline and practices.
(Reasonable and workable are important because it's easy to try to be the perfect TMS-er and take on too much.)
You deserve this, and it's the only way you'll be able to answer that nagging set of questions you're struggling hard with: Is this all TMS? Part TMS? What is really going on here?

You mentioned quite a few resources and practices that have helped you in some way in the past: Dr. Sarno's book, The Divided Mind; the Curable app; journaling, meditation, etc.
Some of those are keepers, and some may need to be reworked or dropped. There are other practices you may want to try.
You've learned, with some significant frustration and disillusionment, that a TMS specialist is not for you. That's not part of what comes next in any way for you.

I wish you well!

Thank you

 

[kai123]

This is all very fair and your frustrations are valid. If you never want to spend another dime on this work, though, you don't have to. Don't let it stop you from putting the knowledge of mind body symptoms into practice though; they don't deserve that much power over your choices and your health decisions.

I agree that it's wrong when physicians in this area take advantage of peoples' desperation to make a buck. But then - people who are doing this work as a job also have bills to pay and mouths to feed. I don't think it's the transaction of money that is the issue per se, because in a capitalist society that is how we signify value and also how we sustain ourselves and our families. What's wrong is the power dynamic and the dependency it can create.

None of us should be reliant on TMS professionals to fix us, just like we shouldn't be reliant on traditional western medicine (for treating our TMS, that is). I am a therapist and considering training in PRT, so thanks for sharing your perspective here. It has given me a lot to think about.