New Program Day 3: Identifying the Source

Welcome to the forum @Chris909, and thanks for the good review of where you are at with this process, it really helps!

What happens if you go through this whole reframing process for months and months, or a year, and nothing improves? What is next?
OMG OMG OMG OMG WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF WHAT IF?????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This, my friend, is your brain on TMS. It's the classic WHAT IF? dialogue. Also called Catastrophizing. Just search that word, and see what comes up. Catastrophizing goes hand-in-hand with Rumination, another mental activity that is fully recognized by mental health professionals as unhealthy. Both are obessive activites, and all obsessive activites (including full-on OCD) are, in varying degrees of severity, examples of the TMS repression mechanism at work.

In other words, when your brian engages in this kind of thing, it is a DISTRACTION against thoughts that your brain is repressing for your protection.

I suffer from depression and anxiety my whole life,
I looked up Dr. Fanestil who is clearly following the newer path of nervous system retraining (and reframing) (eg: PRT) without talking a whole lot about the emotional repression aspect. In the the opinion of many of us here, emotional distress and repression are still hugely important to unlocking the mystery of chronic pain as well as chronic mental health conditions for many people. Dr. F does briefly mention childhood trauma, which is crucial. It is my completely non-professional opinion, based only upon fairly close observation and participation on this forum over twelve years, that Adverse Childhood Experiences are very closely associated with lifelong depression and/or anxiety as well as chronic pain and other syndromes.

The acronym is ACEs. There's a list of ten Yes or NO questions that have been created, called variously the ACEs Quiz or Test. Taking this quick quiz for yourself (with 100% honesty!) might be an informative thing to bring to your sessions with Dr. Fanestil. All it takes is one or two adverse childhood experiences to affect mental (and physical) health for life. Here is a good place for it: Take The ACE Quiz — And Learn What It Does And Doesn't Mean : Shots - Health News : NPR - be sure to read the article before and after answering the questions - like most NPR articles, it's not long.

Even those of us with essentially zero Yes responses can have fairly typical "Sarno-type" TMS - I found a Yes response that covered a few years of my early childhood - which I think contributed to the lifelong anxiety that my first-time older mother "gave" me in utero, but that's another story.

I can offer one more response to your original question, which is that some people with trauma do find that although nervous system retraining can help, they will continue to struggle with "dis-ease" until they properly process the trauma - which is where psychotherapy comes in. So yes, there is another step - but, very importantly, there is absolutely NO benefit to be gained by allowing your TMS brain to obsess about it now.

Doing this work effectively really requires taking it one step at a time. Practice giving in, letting go, and creating mindful practices to calm yourself whenever you recognize that your fearful brain is trying to manipulate you into being fearful. That is, after all, its job. You can thank it kindly for trying to protect you, then proactively move toward a more constructive frame of mind where you can do the necessary work.

Good luck!
 
Hi,
Im new to this program and very thankful for this free program!. Just had one question, im up to day 3 and wondered is there more to the pages? the pages seem quite short? i just wanted to make sure im not missing out on anything and just getting snippets. Thinking maybe i have to pay to get the full content?
thanks
 
@butterfly86 No, nothing to pay to get any more, that's the full SEP. A lot of the daily tasks are short but it all gradually builds upon itself as you go along and it is profound. If you haven't already done so, it's a good idea to read a book by Dr Sarno, e.g. The Divided Mind.
 
Last edited:
@butterfly86 No, nothing to pay to get any more, that's the full SEP. A lot of the daily tasks are short but it all gradually builds upon itself as you go along and it is profound. If you haven't already done so, it's a good idea to read a book by Dr Sarno, e.g. The Divided Mind.
Thankyou much appreciate this... i will look into getting the book as i havnt read it. thanks
 
Hello Alan

I have been experiencing pain in my right hip for about 10 yeads niw, and for the last 3 or 4 yearsvI feel I have been making some progress through reading about TMS, DIMs and SIMS, Sarno, Steve Ozanich, Dan Buglio etc - so much so that even with a diagnosis of severe OA I can walk 5-8 miles several times a week with manageable pain. I do have to rest a bit for a day after doing this though. I am really disheartened and co fused after an appointment with a surgeon last weekend who took one look at the Xray, told me how terrible it looked and said in no uncertain terms I need a hip replacement. I don't want intrusive surgery, but this has really put doubt in my mind that it is TMS, especially as the pain doesn't move around. Are there instances where a diagnosis of severe OA has been healed with a TMS approach?
 
Hi mazmar, I am sorry you have this situation. What comes to my mind is the thought that from a surgeon you can´t expect a note saying you will be ok as you are. It´s either you need a replacement or you don´t . Did he explain why? Did you let him know about your walks? Is this the first time it is advised? How about a second opinion?
My doctor asked me if I was able to do sth vitaly important for me with the pain I have. He is an advocate of how neural pathways in the brain are created by signals firing info about real danger, which is not. And, today I have a terrible flu, I suffer from migranes, so when I communicated with him he said, you apparently have the flu headache on top of the rest. And yes, it comforted me. I didn´t create this flu to suffer more. Sometimes real bodily issues need to be treated. Sometimes a replacement, an antibiotic, surgery is required, and sometimes it is the flu headache.

If it helped you to read and walk, just go on mazmar. Just realize the hip will still be there if you decide to have the surgery. Talk to someone else. Surgery is surgery meaning it is always intrusive, a C-section is major surgery.

Hello Alan

I have been experiencing pain in my right hip for about 10 yeads niw, and for the last 3 or 4 yearsvI feel I have been making some progress through reading about TMS, DIMs and SIMS, Sarno, Steve Ozanich, Dan Buglio etc - so much so that even with a diagnosis of severe OA I can walk 5-8 miles several times a week with manageable pain. I do have to rest a bit for a day after doing this though. I am really disheartened and co fused after an appointment with a surgeon last weekend who took one look at the Xray, told me how terrible it looked and said in no uncertain terms I need a hip replacement. I don't want intrusive surgery, but this has really put doubt in my mind that it is TMS, especially as the pain doesn't move around. Are there instances where a diagnosis of severe OA has been healed with a TMS approach?
r
 
Hello Fabi

Thank you for your for your reply. You are lucky to have had a surgeon who understands and supports the neuroplastic pain route. This is what I have been doing too and I feel it has helped. If you saw me this time 5 years ago, I was in agony and thinking I'd need a replacement very soon!
Yet, none of the professionals I have seen support me in my 'alternative' approach. I am also using visualisation. There are certain movements I can't make e.g crossing my legs, but this has minimal impact, and the overall impact on my life is currently not severe enough for me to want surgery.

I told him about my walking yes, and that it doesn't stop me sleeping etc, but he seemed to know better than me what an impact it was having and said I was putting on a brave face and more impacted than I let on. I know my own body! Yes, I have approached my GP to be referred for a 2nd opinion.
 
Hello Alan
I have been experiencing pain in my right hip for about 10 yeads niw, and for the last 3 or 4 yearsvI feel I have been making some progress through reading about TMS, DIMs and SIMS, Sarno, Steve Ozanich, Dan Buglio etc - so much so that even with a diagnosis of severe OA I can walk 5-8 miles several times a week with manageable pain. I do have to rest a bit for a day after doing this though. I am really disheartened and co fused after an appointment with a surgeon last weekend who took one look at the Xray, told me how terrible it looked and said in no uncertain terms I need a hip replacement. I don't want intrusive surgery, but this has really put doubt in my mind that it is TMS, especially as the pain doesn't move around. Are there instances where a diagnosis of severe OA has been healed with a TMS approach?
Hi @mazmar. Just to say that, unfortunately, I don't think it's likely that you'll get a reply from Alan Gordon as he's not active on the forums these days; he hasn't posted since August 2021.
 
Hello Fabi

Thank you for your for your reply. You are lucky to have had a surgeon who understands and supports the neuroplastic pain route. This is what I have been doing too and I feel it has helped. If you saw me this time 5 years ago, I was in agony and thinking I'd need a replacement very soon!
Yet, none of the professionals I have seen support me in my 'alternative' approach. I am also using visualisation. There are certain movements I can't make e.g crossing my legs, but this has minimal impact, and the overall impact on my life is currently not severe enough for me to want surgery.

I told him about my walking yes, and that it doesn't stop me sleeping etc, but he seemed to know better than me what an impact it was having and said I was putting on a brave face and more impacted than I let on. I know my own body! Yes, I have approached my GP to be referred for a 2nd opinion.
Sometimes the trauma we get at doctor 's Offices is dismissed. This is a decision you need to make with somebody You trust! It doesnt matter if they believe in the same things You do. If You get the replacement You Are in better shape for recovery and if You don't just go on!
 
The brain is very good. at this. I beat it 10 years ago but since Feb March I've been struggling with sciatica type butt tightness both sides down to Achilles heel. I still do anything I want only it hurts. For me pain kinda of ok as long as I can move. The first time I could not walk . It is very frustrating and the doubts come creeping in because it feels so physical. In a way the naivety of the first time was good the more we know sometimes confuses more.
 
The brain is very good. at this. I beat it 10 years ago but since Feb March I've been struggling with sciatica type butt tightness both sides down to Achilles heel. I still do anything I want only it hurts. For me pain kinda of ok as long as I can move. The first time I could not walk . It is very frustrating and the doubts come creeping in because it feels so physical. In a way the naivety of the first time was good the more we know sometimes confuses more.
Long story short I AM SO ANGRY!!!!
 
Day 3: Identifying the Source

Over the past couple of days, we've talked about how and why neural pathway pain develops. This begs the question - how do you know if you have it?

Not all chronic pain is caused by learned neural pathways in the brain. Some people have structural issues that need to be addressed medically.

Often though, structural abnormalities in the body are incidental, and not the source of physical symptoms. For example, 64% of people with no back pain have disc bulges or herniations. 61% of middle aged-adults with no knee pain have meniscal tears. Wear and tear is a normal part of life.

Don't Guess. Assess.

I’ve done many intakes with pain patients, and one of the first things I do is assess whether their symptoms are likely to be structurally caused or due to learned neural pathways.

These are some of the questions I ask:

Do you have multiple symptoms?
Do you have a history of anxiety?
Did the pain come on during a stressful time in your life?
Was there an initial injury or did the pain come out of nowhere?
Are the symptoms inconsistent?
What other diagnoses have you been given?

Here’s an assessment I did with a woman at the 2017 Pain Conference. We were able to help her determine that she has neural pathway pain despite having been diagnosed with disc bulges, scoliosis, spinal stenosis, and arthritis:


So, do you have neural pathway pain? Probably. Chronic pain caused by neural pathways is more common than structurally-caused chronic pain. But it’s always important to be thorough.

The best way to confirm that your pain is not structural is to meet with a physician who specializes in identifying and diagnosing neural pathway pain. Here’s a list of doctors state by state who have this specialty:

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist (Find a TMS Doctor or Therapist)

The Belief Paradox

As we talked about yesterday, pain is a danger signal...and to overcome neural pathway pain, it's important to teach your brain that the pain you're feeling is not dangerous.

But if you believe that there's something structurally wrong with you, it can be very hard to feel safe. How can you communicate a message of safety to your brain if you think you're causing physical damage every time you sit, or walk, or type?

Accepting that your pain is not structural is a key part of recovery.

Here comes the paradox part:

I’ve been telling you that the best way to eliminate your pain is to convince yourself that it’s not structural. The paradox is that the best way to convince yourself that your pain is not structural is to eliminate your pain. Once you’ve seen that your brain has power over your pain, it’s much easier to accept that it’s caused by neural pathways.

This is a chicken-and-egg situation. But don’t worry, you can beat the paradox by taking small, incremental steps. The more evidence you get that you're structurally sound, the easier it is to believe, the more you believe, the easier it is to get evidence. It becomes a positive feedback loop.

In tomorrow’s post, "Breaking the Pain Cycle," we'll take the first step down this path, by addressing the driving force behind neural pathway pain.

[​IMG]
I'm curious, is chronic anxiety considered a TMS symptom? I'm wondering how anxiety could be assessed in a similar manner, like a structural issue, but it's mental so that would be different. Meaning I wonder how a doctor could tell if anxiety is TMS related or something else
Day 3: Identifying the Source

Over the past couple of days, we've talked about how and why neural pathway pain develops. This begs the question - how do you know if you have it?

Not all chronic pain is caused by learned neural pathways in the brain. Some people have structural issues that need to be addressed medically.

Often though, structural abnormalities in the body are incidental, and not the source of physical symptoms. For example, 64% of people with no back pain have disc bulges or herniations. 61% of middle aged-adults with no knee pain have meniscal tears. Wear and tear is a normal part of life.

Don't Guess. Assess.

I’ve done many intakes with pain patients, and one of the first things I do is assess whether their symptoms are likely to be structurally caused or due to learned neural pathways.

These are some of the questions I ask:

Do you have multiple symptoms?
Do you have a history of anxiety?
Did the pain come on during a stressful time in your life?
Was there an initial injury or did the pain come out of nowhere?
Are the symptoms inconsistent?
What other diagnoses have you been given?

Here’s an assessment I did with a woman at the 2017 Pain Conference. We were able to help her determine that she has neural pathway pain despite having been diagnosed with disc bulges, scoliosis, spinal stenosis, and arthritis:


So, do you have neural pathway pain? Probably. Chronic pain caused by neural pathways is more common than structurally-caused chronic pain. But it’s always important to be thorough.

The best way to confirm that your pain is not structural is to meet with a physician who specializes in identifying and diagnosing neural pathway pain. Here’s a list of doctors state by state who have this specialty:

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist (Find a TMS Doctor or Therapist)

The Belief Paradox

As we talked about yesterday, pain is a danger signal...and to overcome neural pathway pain, it's important to teach your brain that the pain you're feeling is not dangerous.

But if you believe that there's something structurally wrong with you, it can be very hard to feel safe. How can you communicate a message of safety to your brain if you think you're causing physical damage every time you sit, or walk, or type?

Accepting that your pain is not structural is a key part of recovery.

Here comes the paradox part:

I’ve been telling you that the best way to eliminate your pain is to convince yourself that it’s not structural. The paradox is that the best way to convince yourself that your pain is not structural is to eliminate your pain. Once you’ve seen that your brain has power over your pain, it’s much easier to accept that it’s caused by neural pathways.

This is a chicken-and-egg situation. But don’t worry, you can beat the paradox by taking small, incremental steps. The more evidence you get that you're structurally sound, the easier it is to believe, the more you believe, the easier it is to get evidence. It becomes a positive feedback loop.

In tomorrow’s post, "Breaking the Pain Cycle," we'll take the first step down this path, by addressing the driving force behind neural pathway pain.

[​IMG]
Is anxiety considered a TMS symptom or a structural symptom? Or could it be either? I'm wondering how or if this can be applied to chronic anxiety. Thank you for any clarity anyone can offer on this subject.
 
Is anxiety considered a TMS symptom or a structural symptom? Or could it be either?

What we call TMS is actually based on an evolutionary brain mechanism that was designed to help us survive in the dangerous primitive wilderness. Anxiety is simply one function of that mechanism, with the purpose of keeping us on high alert to the relatively few and very tangible dangers of primitive life. It worked quite well during many many eons and who knows how many generations, when life was short and the only goal was to procreate and keep it going.

The problem is that the entire mechanism, including the anxiety mechanism, works for shit in the modern world, when we know that we have very long lives, and we are surrounded 24/7 by what feels like an infinite number of small stresses and existential uncertainties, most of which are not physically threatening. Our brains don't know this, so every time we feel stress in long-term relationships or jobs or traffic or technology or information overload, the primitive mechanism responds as if it's a life or death situation. This is ultimately really really bad for our mental and physical health.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top