Changing from a negative to a positive attitude

[Booble]

I think there is an important piece missing in this formulation. Yes, identifying your deep emotions and feeling them is not sufficient to change TMS. There has to be a cognitive component --a change in one's thinking about the situation.

This can be put in Sarno/Freudian language where one reaches the emotions generated by the subconscious (the inner child) and brings them into current conscious awareness (the inner adult), and applies a more enlightened reasoning to them that changes one's understanding. This is a cognitive process that results in personal growth.

Many of us also look at this change in a spiritual context. We have grown and are more enlightened.

If looked at from the neural pathways model, there is new learning that creates new neural pathways. Without the new learning, we are just replaying the greatest hits of our emotional pain and reactivating the same old neural pathways.

You explain this so well. I tried last night but deleted it for fear of being misinterpreted.
I will try again though.....it's not just finding, surfacing and feeling them. It's fully allowing your little self to express every last drop of anger analogous to when you cry until there are no more tears in you to cry. If our problem is that as good little humans we are not allowed to express rage despite that being part of the human/animal experience then we have to not just identify it, but allow ourselves to get it out. Just like when those tears need to come when we grieve.
And just like how with grieving we may feel waves of sadness later and cry again, with the anger our little one feels for whatever injustice they experienced sometimes the same anger is back and we have to allow, experience, explain, release it again.

 

[Rabscuttle]

Like understanding.

I don't think forgiveness is helpful because it sometimes shoves those feelings right back down. Forgiveness is the people pleaser's response (that often we've already done).
I think it's helping the little one in you be allowed those negative emotions, helping the little one understand, and then helping the little one release.
(Though note that they often come back and thus the need to repeat the process in the future.)

Forgiveness isn’t necessarily a people pleaser response. It’s when you allow yourself to continually be walked over after forgiving that it’s damaging (assuming they continue to wrong you) But you can easily forgive someone and not take their shit anymore and stand up for yourself. Or forgive them, and release the grip they have on you and move on from that relationship. Forgiveness is for us too not just the person we’re forgiving. Everyone has hurt someone. I think forgiveness can be a great thing when approached with care and caution.

people can change, we’re all proof of that, right? If we’re swearing off something like forgiveness, then idk, that seems like a dangerous road. I’ve made some poor decisions and hurt people and imploded relationships. I hope one day I can try and make this right. And I hope, but don’t expect to be met with forgiveness. Some people genuinely can change, but when they’re a lower version of themselves they make shitty decisions. But above all, forgiveness is about ourselves as much as the person we’re forgiving.

 

[Booble]

Forgiveness isn’t necessarily a people pleaser response. It’s when you allow yourself to continually be walked over after forgiving that it’s damaging. But you can easily forgive someone and not take their shit anymore and stand up for yourself. Or forgive them, and release the grip they have on you and move on from that relationship. Forgiveness is for us too not just the person we’re forgiving. Everyone has hurt someone. I think forgiveness can be a great thing when approached with care and caution

I agree. I mean in the context of solving TMS.

Finding, surfacing and forgiving isn't going to solve your TMS pains that are there to distract you from feeling and expressing the rage.
What you are talking about is on the conscious level of life and everyday living where of course we should forgive. I'm talking about the TMS resolution.

Sometimes when people say "Sarno finding your anger doesn't work" it's because they aren't going through the actual full necessary process -- which their TMS brain is trying to stop them from doing. It will find lots of ways to stop you -- whether it's from throwing even worse symptoms at you or your lizard brain telling you it's all nonsense.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I agree. I mean in the context of solving TMS.

Finding, surfacing and forgiving isn't going to solve your TMS pains that are there to distract you from feeling and expressing the rage.
What you are talking about is on the conscious level of life and everyday living where of course we should forgive. I'm talking about the TMS resolution.

Sometimes when people say "Sarno finding your anger doesn't work" it's because they aren't going through the actual full necessary process -- which their TMS brain is trying to stop them from doing. It will find lots of ways to stop you -- whether it's from throwing even worse symptoms at you or your lizard brain telling you it's all nonsense.

Yeah going to heavily disagree here. Am I advocating someone brand new to TMS forgive everyone who wronged them, whether internally or externally? Of course not. But plenty of tmsers literally get stuck in rumination loops thinking the same thoughts, feeling the same emotions, the same hurts, the same rage, over and over. It is conscious effort and will power to break this loop. Like the symptoms themselves, there are scales of severity to rumination. Some people are locked in their thoughts day after day year after year. People live and die with the same hurts on their minds. They might not have chronic pain but the result is the same, a half life fixated on something doing nothing for them. Growth is a huge part of this process. As Ellen mentioned it’s spiritual growth. Forgiveness is absolutely a part of that.

 

[Ellen]

Like forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a word I shy away from because it means different things to different people. Some religions teach that someone sinned against you, and you being the better more "spiritual" person forgive them of their sin. I'm thinking more of a cognitive shift involving empathy and understanding. It requires that we put our own ego aside and move out of victimhood. Look at the other person from their perspective and life experiences and see that they were just being a flawed human, like all of us.

 

[Booble]

Yeah going to heavily disagree here. Am I advocating someone brand new to TMS forgive everyone who wronged them, whether internally or externally? Of course not. But plenty of tmsers literally get stuck in rumination loops thinking the same thoughts, feeling the same emotions, the same hurts, the same rage, over and over. It is conscious effort and will power to break this loop. Like the symptoms themselves, there are scales of severity to rumination. Some people are locked in their thoughts day after day year after year. People live and die with the same hurts on their minds. They might not have chronic pain but the result is the same, a half life fixated on something doing nothing for them. Growth is a huge part of this process. As Ellen mentioned it’s spiritual growth. Forgiveness is absolutely a part of that.

Yes, forgive. But that has nothing to do with the Sarno process of uncovering your rage.
I am not advocating for "rumination loops thinking the same thoughts, feeling the same emotions, the same hurts, the same rage, over and over."
Which is what will happen if you don't fully go through the process that I am suggesting. Forgiveness cuts the process short.
So yes, forgive everyone in real life, that's healthy and good and allows you to function well. But if you are sitting down to "do the work" forgiveness without the expressing and understanding phase is more likely going to shove it all back down and will not result in the release of the pain from which the TMS-er seeks.
The little one inside of you has spent a lifetime being the good boy or girl forgiving.

 

[Booble]

Forgiveness is a word I shy away from because it means different things to different people. Some religions teach that someone sinned against you, and you being the better more "spiritual" person forgive them of their sin. I'm thinking more of a cognitive shift involving empathy and understanding. It requires that we put our own ego aside and move out of victimhood. Look at the other person from their perspective and life experiences and see that they were just being a flawed human, like all of us.

Yep. Everyone is doing the best they can with what they have.
And as a human animal you have a right....a requirement....to be mad as heck at them.

 

[Booble]

I like this discussion. It’s definitely on the spiritual level, whatever spirituality one believes in, there seem to be ways to help process hard things, and that’s very useful.

I have no idea what other people are experiencing, but I can only say what I’ve been through and I’ll put it out there to maybe help someone who’s having an experience similar to mine. I’ve had a TON of therapy. More than ten years. I’ve been working with my inner child for 30 years. I recently had 3 years of intense internal family systems therapy, where I was literally demolished emotionally each week, exploring and reliving trauma, just in case I missed something from my other 7 years of therapy.

As I was doing this I was starting to have nightly night terrors (much worse than nightmares) and all my TMS symptoms (which are nervous system focused) quadrupled. I finally had to end the therapy because I was a mess. I then discovered this forum.

Upon recommendations here, I dug some more. I journaled daily and intensely for more than 6 months. I cried, vented, had revelations, the works. I felt even worse and made zero physical progress. I finally determined that, for me, this wasn’t helping.

Then, I started to incorporate a much more spiritual perspective and it brought in forgiveness for me, which brought much more relief than rage ever had. Shortly thereafter, I embraced neuroplasticity and pain reprocessing therapy (PRT) and some other methods to soothe my nervous system, and that’s been a source of progress. My symptoms are subsiding, albeit slowly.

So that’s all I’ve got. I think my nervous system is shot, not that my symptoms are tactics my brain is using to keeping me from exploring emotions. I think exploring my emotions for too long helped to put me into a severe fight or flight mode. I’m not saying I won’t continue to explore emotions. Grief exploration is an area I could use a lot more of. And every day, there are things that come up that you need to feel in your body and recognize what you feel. Then especially if it’s anger, you’ve got to let it go. I’m still working this out for myself.

I’m not sure if I belong here anymore if this is a very Sarno-based forum. Because, I’ll be honest, I believe Sarno’s work is key to the big picture. I’m just not sure if the traditional things he taught are all really useful to me. Some are. But not all. So there you go and I know that’s controversial—but I just feel for the people who are stuck. I think it might not be their fault. They just might not be doing what they need yet.

All understandable, Diana. Some people have much deeper trauma than the kinds of things that Sarno offered. That's presumably why he did an intake session first and sent some people to psychotherapy. There is nothing controversial in us all agreeing on that.

I express my thoughts on what works for those with pain from what I still call "Tension Myositis Syndrome."
If you and Rabscuttle and any others find that uncomfortable or painful I'm sorry about that. I will try to include in my posts that the advice is not necessarily for those with deeper psychological trauma. I don't want to censor myself and prevent helping others in the techniques that work for traditional T-M-S.

 

[Fal]

I like this discussion. It’s definitely on the spiritual level, whatever spirituality one believes in, there seem to be ways to help process hard things, and that’s very useful.

I have no idea what other people are experiencing, but I can only say what I’ve been through and I’ll put it out there to maybe help someone who’s having an experience similar to mine. I’ve had a TON of therapy. More than ten years. I’ve been working with my inner child for 30 years. I recently had 3 years of intense internal family systems therapy, where I was literally demolished emotionally each week, exploring and reliving trauma, just in case I missed something from my other 7 years of therapy.

As I was doing this I was starting to have nightly night terrors (much worse than nightmares) and all my TMS symptoms (which are nervous system focused) quadrupled. I finally had to end the therapy because I was a mess. I then discovered this forum.

Upon recommendations here, I dug some more. I journaled daily and intensely for more than 6 months. I cried, vented, had revelations, the works. I felt even worse and made zero physical progress. I finally determined that, for me, this wasn’t helping.

Then, I started to incorporate a much more spiritual perspective and it brought in forgiveness for me, which brought much more relief than rage ever had. Shortly thereafter, I embraced neuroplasticity and pain reprocessing therapy (PRT) and some other methods to soothe my nervous system, and that’s been a source of progress. My symptoms are subsiding, albeit slowly.

So that’s all I’ve got. I think my nervous system is shot, not that my symptoms are tactics my brain is using to keeping me from exploring emotions. I think exploring my emotions for too long helped to put me into a severe fight or flight mode. I’m not saying I won’t continue to explore emotions. Grief exploration is an area I could use a lot more of. And every day, there are things that come up that you need to feel in your body and recognize what you feel. Then especially if it’s anger, you’ve got to let it go. I’m still working this out for myself.

I’m not sure if I belong here anymore if this is a very Sarno-based forum. Because, I’ll be honest, I believe Sarno’s work is key to the big picture. I’m just not sure if the traditional things he taught are all really useful to me. Some are. But not all. So there you go and I know that’s controversial—but I just feel for the people who are stuck. I think it might not be their fault. They just might not be doing what they need yet.

I agree with Diana and im definitely leaning more into the spiritual side of things, it took of year of not thinking about the physical and its just TMS for me to get rid of the pain i was in however my body is still crooked and the muscles in my hands and feet are still contracted which is what is holding me back. I know its TMS and the fact that Tamara had the same issue and it resolved and the fact Dianas hands released from their clawed positions aswell is what has kept me on this path and just waiting for that one day in the future that will just spontaneously release.

However i too have looked into stuff like Joe Dispenza meditations and the fact i still held onto Anger towards my ex for leaving me when i needed her the most (when TMS fully hit), my dad dying 3 months ago causing grief and the fact i deal with 2 autistic children, the loneliness of living on my own for the past 3 years, by being calm and forgiving people and not playing victim to my circumstances and thinking towards a brighter future i can tell i just generally feel calmer.

I have also incorporated a lymphatic drainage exercise which finally helped release most of my hip issues i was having, i have also bought a rebounder and bounce on that daily along with the trampoline i have outside for the kids.

 

[Cactusflower]

@Diana-M said:
"I’m not sure if I belong here anymore if this is a very Sarno-based forum. Because, I’ll be honest, I believe Sarno’s work is key to the big picture. I’m just not sure if the traditional things he taught are all really useful to me. Some are. But not all. So there you go and I know that’s controversial—but I just feel for the people who are stuck. I think it might not be their fault. They just might not be doing what they need yet."

I'm absolutely with you Diana - in that I believe Sarno's work is the key to the big picture, but his vision was not necessarily complete. His discovery (and the work of other trailblazers before him) did not have the benefit of new science, new discovery. I don't think it's fair to discount the new work being done by others after Sarno. Eg. that would be discounting the healing work of people like @TG957 or even my own TMS coach (who studied Lorimer Mosley and Pain Reprocessing amongst other methods).
Everyone has their own path. Do I think some folks in the realm are kind of quacks - yes. But I don't mention it very often because others find their work useful.

Do what works.
If I have a place here @Diana-M , then you certainly do too.
Part of healing is to notice the TMS personality traits that create internal stress. Black and white thinking - all or none, one way or the highway is one of those traits. You have broken through that and opened your mind. It's very akin to the later work of Steve Ozanich, and a few other former Grand Eagles on this forum who were strong proponents of spirituality (which I often call mindset because it's a bit less woo woo for some) as part dealing with the mind/body and also as developing more as a person.

 

[Diana-M]

I’m glad you’re feeling better at least a little, @Fal! I guess all of our stories show just how unique the strategies are for healing. And @Booble, I can see your point. A bunch of people might well respond to the traditional Sarno route. And to be honest, maybe I still haven’t accomplished some of what he advised?

 

[Diana-M]

@Diana-M said:
"I’m not sure if I belong here anymore if this is a very Sarno-based forum. Because, I’ll be honest, I believe Sarno’s work is key to the big picture. I’m just not sure if the traditional things he taught are all really useful to me. Some are. But not all. So there you go and I know that’s controversial—but I just feel for the people who are stuck. I think it might not be their fault. They just might not be doing what they need yet."

I'm absolutely with you Diana - in that I believe Sarno's work is the key to the big picture, but his vision was not necessarily complete. His discovery (and the work of other trailblazers before him) did not have the benefit of new science, new discovery. I don't think it's fair to discount the new work being done by others after Sarno. Eg. that would be discounting the healing work of people like @TG957 or even my own TMS coach (who studied Lorimer Mosley and Pain Reprocessing amongst other methods).
Everyone has their own path. Do I think some folks in the realm are kind of quacks - yes. But I don't mention it very often because others find their work useful.

Do what works.
If I have a place here @Diana-M , then you certainly do too.
Part of healing is to notice the TMS personality traits that create internal stress. Black and white thinking - all or none, one way or the highway is one of those traits. You have broken through that and opened your mind. It's very akin to the later work of Steve Ozanich, and a few other former Grand Eagles on this forum who were strong proponents of spirituality (which I often call mindset because it's a bit less woo woo for some) as part dealing with the mind/body and also as developing more as a person.

Well said, @Cactusflower. Thank you

 

[Diana-M]

booble, I literally just said someone brand new to this shouldn’t just blindly forgive. The implication was that someone already put in the work, and the logical end conclusion is that forgiveness can be a healthy part of this.

and as Fal alluded, forgiveness is about optimism, belief that others can change, that we can change, that we don’t need to hold so tightly on to the past. That we’re stronger, different people who don’t have to take and put up with the same shit we did in the past. If that’s not a part of the healing process, then yeah maybe this ain’t for me.

I did this healing program with David Hanscom last year on his app. He’s a healer in this sphere, and he totally says without forgiveness you will be stuck. He loves this book, called Forgive, for Good, by Fred Luskin. I read it. It’s really good and it looks at forgiveness as a process for your own mental health. He keeps religion or spirituality out of it. And even from that perspective, he puts forth some great points. I can only speak to forgiveness from a Christian perspective. And it’s definitely not a simple process. It involves inner change and humility and spiritual growth. But ultimately, it does bring healing (and does not imply you agree with what the person did, or that you should be a doormat into the future). I like how we are talking about this!

 

[Ellen]

I'm noticing a lot of people writing on the Forum lately that the problem is their "brain" or their "nervous system". To me this sounds like blaming the body or the physical. I maintain that recovery lies in the mind. It involves learning and personal and spiritual growth. Changing our thinking patterns and worldview.

I don't think this is just a Sarno view. PRT involves using mindfulness in approaching pain (somatic tracking) and changing thinking patterns to address fear. TMS is in the mind, and recovery techniques involve changing the mind.

 

[cafe_bustelo]

I think my nervous system is shot

I hear a lot of people say something like this. What if instead of conceptualizing your nervous system as shot, damaged, etc, you say actually my nervous system is totally fine and functioning the way it should—it just wasn't able to cope with everything you've had to go through (and it has responded poorly to years of not allowing yourself the compassion and attention you deserve).

I’m not sure if I belong here anymore if this is a very Sarno-based forum. Because, I’ll be honest, I believe Sarno’s work is key to the big picture. I’m just not sure if the traditional things he taught are all really useful to me. Some are. But not all. So there you go and I know that’s controversial—but I just feel for the people who are stuck. I think it might not be their fault. They just might not be doing what they need yet.

Wellll I think the forum is necessarily in a period of transition (as it has always been since it started, no doubt, but perhaps more now than ever) as more research is done, the word gets spread, and more people get involved. I get a bit of a wild west feeling from all the practitioners with all their different approaches, but most of them are saying the same kinds of things at the end of the day, and all of it in my opinion does align with Sarno more than it doesn't. There is also the nuance that while Sarno wrote these great books, they were never intended as manuals on how to heal yourself; his lectures and treatment programs were what he actually employed in his practice. Which is to say that with a practitioner, as you're discovering, it can be a lot easier for someone to notice quickly that journaling etc isn't working for you and suggest a different approach, whereas when you're on your own with a book it can easy to feel like you're doing something wrong.

I do think it all comes down to fear, and overcoming fear in favor of life and love (Steve O has a great post on this called Fear vs. Love that I've often come back to).

 

[cafe_bustelo]

I'm noticing a lot of people writing on the Forum lately that the problem is their "brain" or their "nervous system". To me this sounds like blaming the body or the physical. I maintain that recovery lies in the mind. It involves learning and personal and spiritual growth. Changing our thinking patterns and worldview.

I don't think this is just a Sarno view. PRT involves using mindfulness in approaching pain (somatic tracking) and changing thinking patterns to address fear. TMS is in the mind, and recovery techniques involve changing the mind.

Ha, you beat me to it @Ellen , I totally agree.

 

[Diana-M]

@Ellen and @cafe_bustelo
Points well taken. Thank you!

 

[Booble]

I’m glad you’re feeling better at least a little, @Fal! I guess all of our stories show just how unique the strategies are for healing. And @Booble, I can see your point. A bunch of people might well respond to the traditional Sarno route. And to be honest, maybe I still haven’t accomplished some of what he advised?

I think we all have to find our way. It's good that we have a safe place (here!) where we can all share what works.
My method (which I mentioned to someone recently) is a real combo of:

Sarno + Rational Recovery + PsychoCybernetics + Personal Experience (Booble's Own Nonsense for Survival)

Last night I deleted what I was going to post for fear of people getting mad at me. Which is kind of silly since the forum literally says, "in honor of John Sarno." I shouldn't be afraid to post Sarno-esque content.

 

[Booble]

Ha, you beat me to it @Ellen , I totally agree.

As always, Ellen nails it!

 

[Cactusflower]

I believe that the brain, mind, body (which includes the nervous system) are all part of the equation. Not a problem, just need for balance.