trying to determine whether or not chronic and mysterious RSI problems are TMS?

[mysteriousmonkey29]

That sucks man. The most hopeful things I found in deciding whether or not I had it were the following:

1) reading success stories that sounded similar to my own. In particular, the creator of the TMS wiki had a youtube video in which he laid out symptoms and a story that sounded remarkably similar to my own: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=601&v=EIXuLqxmhxs Depending on your situation, you may be able to find stories that are very similar, or not. Don't necessarily be discouraged if not, as the lack of such stories readily available on the internet doesn't necessarily mean you don't have it.
2) reading all about TMS, and ultimately, making a pro con list in terms of things that make you think you do have it, and things that make you think you don't. My list is the original post here, so scroll to the top to see an example. I recommend posting your summary on this forum after you write it, and people will weigh in to help you decide. Notably, in this very post is where someone linked me the youtube video to Forest's description of his symptoms that finally convinced me that I had it. Feel free to link your post here, and I will read it and weigh in for you. Even if people don't comment, just putting all the information in one place is a really good way to think it over. Notably, I only had about equal pro and con lists to start, but in the end, it turned out that I had it. I think the fact that you're on this forum, commenting on posts means there's a pretty decent chance you have it too.
3) once I did start to think I probably had it, I went back to using the computer some. Then my symptoms started going wacky. Hurting a lot more than usual sometimes, hurting less than usual others. This after being very consistent for years. This weird variation that's not correlated with physical activity is common in recovery from TMS, and is a strong indicator that the pain is mentally caused (because otherwise why would it suddenly behave differently when all you change is your mindset?). However, don't be discouraged if this doesn't happen. Just like with the stories, if it does happen, it's an argument for, but if it doesn't, it's not necessarily an argument against. I know this sounds stacked, but I really think it's true. It's much easier to prove that it is TMS than that it isn't. Which is good, because you should really want to have TMS. If you do, it's 100% curable with very little effort, basically the ideal situation. Notably, I recently got over knee pain that I believe to be caused by TMS, that initially came on from running. Running is a repetitive activity, and I was suddenly doing it a lot in quarantine, so I think it's a perfectly legitimate physical reason for pain. However, given my history, I was suspicious that it might be pyschosomatic. So I ignored it and kept running. And it hurt more, just like it would it it were pain caused by a real physical phemenon. But I was still pretty convinced it was fake, so I continued to ignore it. It got worse. I couldn't run without limping. I was still pretty sure it was fake, but at this point I wasn't convinced it would ever go away, just cause how can you not think about this agonizing pain that happens every time you go running? Then, one day, it evaporated. Hasn't come back since. True story.

I have compiled a wealth of information on TMS, and would really like to help you decide whether or not you have it, and get better if you do. It's such an easy thing to educate on, with such a potentially large effect. If you'd like more information, let me know and I can send you my whole document dump. Or I can listen to your specific story/symptoms and tell you what I think.

Hope this is helpful!

 

[bsouth]

hey thanks again, I will link my full story when I post it. For now, a brief summary of my situation is:

I started developing outer wrist pain in my left arm about 1 month into my first job out of college (data specialist so very repetitive typing and I was using an unergonomic mac keyboard on my couch so it makes sense). It soon started hurting my right arm, I actually remember feeling the pain move into the right arm one night when I was so worried about it that I did not sleep at all. Since then the top of my forearms to the elbow are constantly tight and achey and the wrist pain comes and goes. The pain is so convincing because it feels like muscles/tendons in my forearms are rubbing against each other in a weird way. My wrists also crack a lot, mostly the left. The most convincing sensation is a constant slight numbness in the fingers of my left hand which started a few months ago after I fell asleep with my wrist brace on too tight. The numbness is hardly noticeable but is very concerning that I may have nerve damage. Anyways, I've been off of work for 5 months and at times it has felt pretty okay but the pain always comes back. I definitely notice it the most when I'm stressing about it (reading the RSI horror stories on the web has made it so much worse). I've tried PT and acupuncture which did not help much. I got MRIs done viewing the elbows-top of my forearms which showed nothing. I will soon get an EMG done as well.

So yeah, aspects of this certainly seems like TMS but other aspects (mainly the wrist cracking and finger numbness) convince me it is not. I have recently noticed the pain moving into my hand as well which is interesting because that hasn't been an issue before. I would appreciate your advice as well as any resources you have. (I have been obsessively reading/ watching success stories for a while so a lot may be the same)

 

[mysteriousmonkey29]

My 2 cents, you definitely have TMS. I doubt that it's physically caused. Reasoning:

1) You say that you felt the pain move from one hand to another in the night, when you presumably weren't using either hand, when you were worried about it. Now, ask yourself, if it was a physical problem, wouldn't it make more sense for the pain to move to a new area when you were using that new area? Rather than just one random night when you were particularly worried? The correlation of the worry with pain, and the lack of physical sense that it makes for pain to move from one hand to another on one particular night already make me think that your pain is psychosomatic
2) Your wrist has numbness which started from one night of restricted circulation (from wrist braces), but has continued since, despite the fact that I'm assuming you loosened your wrist braces? Doesn't seem like there's a good reason for that sensation to stick around if it was initially brought on by tight wrist braces and then you removed that stimulus. Another point in favor.
3) As you say, it hurts the most when you're stressing about it. Merely reading about similar stories online have caused it to hurt more. I don't see any way for there not to be a psychological component to the pain if what you read increases your pain. Right?
4) You've been to the doctors and physical therapists, they didn't see anything wrong, and their treatments didn't help. This was the same for me. Not definitive by itself (they could always miss something), but certainly increasing the already high likelihood that the pain is psychosomatic.
5) You recently had the pain move into your hand, after at least 5 months of it not doing so (based on how long you've been off work). If the pain were caused by a physical problem caused by using the computer, and you've been using the computer on and off this whole time, why would it wait 5+ months, then suddenly move from your wrist into your hand? Also doesn't make sense physically and points to a psychological phenomenon

On wrist cracking, different parts of different people's bodies crack while doing different activities. I wouldn't read too much into it. My brother and dad's left ankles both crack when they walk but they've never had pain. It's probably unrelated, and you're just associating it with the pain. I totally get it, it's hard not to look for a source. I just don't think this is it.

On specific types of pain, I too was worried that my pain was not psychosomatic in the beginning because of some bruising that I developed on my arms. Basically, I, like you, couldn't imagine any way that this could be caused physically. But low and behold, this too evaporated with everything else when I decided I had TMS and stopped ignoring the pain. I really have no idea how this happens, but apparently the brain has more physical control over the body than I would have expected. I certainly don't think that making things numb is too far of a stretch. I also recently got over back pain that I thought was caused from scoliosis, that included a large numbness component. My scoliosis doctor told me he thought it might indicate nerve damage, just like you said, but then it ultimately went away when I decided it was TMS and started ignoring it.

So congratulations, I, at least, think you have it! Which is great if true, because then you're in for a miracle cure. I still totally recommend doing all the stuff I said above--read about it, make a list of pros and cons, post here, make up your mind, and act accordingly.

 

[mysteriousmonkey29]

Here's a list of resources I put together when I was researching it to help educate others on it, and help them figure out whether or not they have it:

60 minutes general explanation: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/The_20/20_segment_on_John_Sarno_and_TMS (The 20/20 segment on John Sarno and TMS)

(especially 3-7 minutes, and 10 minutes)

Chronic pain/neural pathway explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=D36yy63CHq4

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/TMS_Personality_Traits (TMS Personality Traits)

diagnostic quiz: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_diagnostic.html (Harvard RSI Action --> The Mind/Body Approach --> A Diagnostic Quiz)

RSI story, sounds just like me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=601&v=EIXuLqxmhxs (especially 2:25-7 minutes, and 10 minutes onwards)

Make a list of things about your symptoms that don’t make sense from a physical perspective. Such as:

-writing hurts less than using the computer

-was writing fine fall junior year, then suddenly couldn’t write winter junior year

-injured left hand with WAY less repetitive activity than right

List of success stories by symptom: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Success_Stories_by_Symptoms_%26_Diagnoses (Success Stories by Symptoms & Diagnoses)

 

[Balsa11]

RSI is painful but not dangerous

 

[Tms_joe]

Your mind has created pain. It continues to exist because you are scared of what the pain could be. This makes an effective distraction from the conflict going on inside your own mind.


That’s just reality.

Now read that again. What did your mind just do to rationalize it and make the issue more complex?

Read it 100x. Watch how your mind cannot accept that cold hard truth.

Now come read it again when TMS is in your past. If you’d just accepted the truth when you heard it the end of this whole scenario would have begun then.

 

[benjsteger]

Here's a list of resources I put together when I was researching it to help educate others on it, and help them figure out whether or not they have it:

60 minutes general explanation: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/The_20/20_segment_on_John_Sarno_and_TMS (The 20/20 segment on John Sarno and TMS)

(especially 3-7 minutes, and 10 minutes)

Chronic pain/neural pathway explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=D36yy63CHq4

http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/TMS_Personality_Traits (TMS Personality Traits)

diagnostic quiz: http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/mb_diagnostic.html (Harvard RSI Action --> The Mind/Body Approach --> A Diagnostic Quiz)

RSI story, sounds just like me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=601&v=EIXuLqxmhxs (especially 2:25-7 minutes, and 10 minutes onwards)

Make a list of things about your symptoms that don’t make sense from a physical perspective. Such as:

-writing hurts less than using the computer

-was writing fine fall junior year, then suddenly couldn’t write winter junior year

-injured left hand with WAY less repetitive activity than right

List of success stories by symptom: http://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Success_Stories_by_Symptoms_%26_Diagnoses (Success Stories by Symptoms & Diagnoses)

hi! Did your hand pain include any clicking and grinding in the fingers or thumbs when bending them? That is my current issue, and it includes pain. It came on without an injury and has just stuck around. I have been trying to find any other person who had a similar issue and was able to overcome it. Thanks

 

[BloodMoon]

Did your hand pain include any clicking and grinding in the fingers or thumbs when bending them? That is my current issue, and it includes pain. It came on without an injury and has just stuck around. I have been trying to find any other person who had a similar issue and was able to overcome it.

As I wrote to you in another thread, it’s completely understandable to want to hear from someone with the exact same or very similar symptom who’s recovered—that can be really encouraging. But needing to find an exact or near-exact match before you can fully believe it’s TMS can also keep your attention fixed on the symptom and feed the TMS cycle.

I’ve seen this pattern many times on these forums: people find someone with very similar symptoms who’s recovered, then start questioning whether the symptoms were similar enough. Even when they’re almost identical, they still feel the need to find another person with an even closer match. Maybe you wouldn’t do that, but it’s something to watch out for because it can become another form of symptom-monitoring, keeping you stuck in the cycle of fear and hypervigilance.

From the TMS perspective, the brain can produce a wide range of symptoms in different parts of the body as a protective response—whether to distract you from difficult emotions and/or discourage you from doing things that it has learned to perceive as dangerous, even when those activities are actually safe.

 

[benjsteger]

As I wrote to you in another thread, it’s completely understandable to want to hear from someone with the exact same or very similar symptom who’s recovered—that can be really encouraging. But needing to find an exact or near-exact match before you can fully believe it’s TMS can also keep your attention fixed on the symptom and feed the TMS cycle.

I’ve seen this pattern many times on these forums: people find someone with very similar symptoms who’s recovered, then start questioning whether the symptoms were similar enough. Even when they’re almost identical, they still feel the need to find another person with an even closer match. Maybe you wouldn’t do that, but it’s something to watch out for because it can become another form of symptom-monitoring, keeping you stuck in the cycle of fear and hypervigilance.

From the TMS perspective, the brain can produce a wide range of symptoms in different parts of the body as a protective response—whether to distract you from difficult emotions and/or discourage you from doing things that it has learned to perceive as dangerous, even when those activities are actually safe.

Hi, Bloodmoon. I agree with you! I am going to stop that search now, seeking for a perfect match. I have a doubt that is what motivates me to search. If I dont fully 100% believe it is TMS, I wont be able to get it to go away. That is what makes me want to find evidence for it with others. Do you have any thoughts on that? Or just another thought to not pay attention to?

 

[BloodMoon]

If I dont fully 100% believe it is TMS, I wont be able to get it to go away. That is what makes me want to find evidence for it with others. Do you have any thoughts on that?

First, what is a very good sign imo is that you took on board what I said. I've said that to other people and they usually get very defensive about it (their TMSing brain makes them so). I therefore think you can see what your brain is doing, keeping you doubtful, keeping you in the TMS loop.

It obviously is ideal to fully 100% believe your symptoms are TMS, but it's okay too for it to be a bit of a work in progress situation. I found with my own TMS symptoms (and I have experienced a myriad of them) that the important thing is to be disciplined... no Googling the symptoms, no trying to find others who have recovered from the exact same symptoms (as we've already discussed), and no prodding and 'testing' the area to see how it's doing.

When you catch yourself worrying about the symptoms, interrupt those thoughts and gently move your attention and thoughts on to other things.

If/when the symptoms get worse, think of it as being just your brain ringing a louder alarm bell that it thinks you're in danger or that there's an emotion it doesn't want you to feel and express because it views that as being dangerous.

Remind yourself that doubt is often part of the TMS process rather than proof that the 'diagnosis' of TMS is wrong.

Read through your evidence list that points to it being TMS, once at the start of the day and once at the end of the day. At the same time, bear in mind that, ironically, many people find that the less they try to prove to themselves that it's TMS, the more recovery starts to happen.

And probably the number one thing that helped me was this... try to measure your progress by how little attention you're giving the symptoms, rather than by how intense they happen to be on any given day. If you're living your life more and thinking about your symptoms less, you're moving in the right direction—even if the symptoms themselves haven't caught up yet.

 

[benjsteger]

First, what is a very good sign imo is that you took on board what I said. I've said that to other people and they usually get very defensive about it (their TMSing brain makes them so). I therefore think you can see what your brain is doing, keeping you doubtful, keeping you in the TMS loop.

It obviously is ideal to fully 100% believe your symptoms are TMS, but it's okay too for it to be a bit of a work in progress situation. I found with my own TMS symptoms (and I have experienced a myriad of them) that the important thing is to be disciplined... no Googling the symptoms, no trying to find others who have recovered from the exact same symptoms (as we've already discussed), and no prodding and 'testing' the area to see how it's doing.

When you catch yourself worrying about the symptoms, interrupt those thoughts and gently move your attention and thoughts on to other things.

If/when the symptoms get worse, think of it as being just your brain ringing a louder alarm bell that it thinks you're in danger or that there's an emotion it doesn't want you to feel and express because it views that as being dangerous.

Remind yourself that doubt is often part of the TMS process rather than proof that the 'diagnosis' of TMS is wrong.

Read through your evidence list that points to it being TMS, once at the start of the day and once at the end of the day. At the same time, bear in mind that, ironically, many people find that the less they try to prove to themselves that it's TMS, the more recovery starts to happen.

And probably the number one thing that helped me was this... try to measure your progress by how little attention you're giving the symptoms, rather than by how intense they happen to be on any given day. If you're living your life more and thinking about your symptoms less, you're moving in the right direction—even if the symptoms themselves haven't caught up yet.

Thanks! I really appericate it. I will try to be displinced and give it as little attention as possible. I will check back in a few weeks and let you know after implenting, how things are going.

 

[BloodMoon]

Thanks! I really appericate it. I will try to be displinced and give it as little attention as possible. I will check back in a few weeks and let you know after implenting, how things are going.

You're very welcome! Yes, do let me know how things are going, but it's important not to put a time frame or deadline on any of this. Your brain will stop the symptoms when it feels safe to stop them.

The way I always think of it is that it's like going to bed at night. You can make sure you've got a comfortable bed to sleep in, but you can't force your brain to make you fall asleep. You get into bed, relax, let your mind drift to pleasant thoughts, and then it happens.

The symptoms probably won't disappear like a switch being flicked, though. More often, they'll ebb and flow for a while before gradually fading away, but then you won't actually be taking any or much notice of what the symptoms are doing, you won't be monitoring them.

 

[mysteriousmonkey29]

Hey Ben! A lot to respond to here, but I'll do my best:
1) No, I did not have clicking or grinding in my hand during my pain. However, I did have clicking in my knee pain from running that I later attributed to TMS and fully recovered from, unsure if I mentioned it in this thread or not.
2) I do agree with BloodMoon that it's not necessary to find a person exactly matching your symptoms in order to indicate that it's likely TMS. I actually don't agree that you should stop searching though, because if you are able to find someone with the exact same, or very similar, symptoms, that then recovered, it'll help convince you, which will make recovery easier. That being said, I would just keep searching because it *might* help *if* you're able to find someone with similar enough symptoms. I definitely agree with BloodMoon that if you aren't able to find someone, you shouldn't use that to conclude that you don't have TMS (does that make sense?). You won't be able to find 100% match, and you'll have to make the call with the closest matches you're able to.
3) "If I dont fully 100% believe it is TMS, I wont be able to get it to go away."--super interesting comment here, and I get where you're coming from. This is actually a thing I disagree with Sarno on, based on my personal experience. I've now totally gotten rid of about 4 pain issues that I attributed to TMS. Only with one of them (the hand problem) was I fully convinced that it was TMS. The others ranged from "I think this is TMS but am not sure" (recent leg pain with siatica symptoms) to "I'm pretty sure this is TMS" (knee pain from running) to "I don't think this is TMS but it's worth a shot ignoring it for a bit" (back pain previously attributed to scoliosis). In all 4 cases, I got over the pain and it essentially never returned (when it does return it lasts for like 1 second in a day maybe, so it's essentially negligible). I do think that the stronger your belief that it's TMS the more likely you'll be able to recover from it, but I don't agree that you need to be 100% convinced to recover, becasue I wasn't 100% convinced (maybe like 30% convinced in the weakest case) and still recovered, so clearly we know it's at least possible. I think you should make an evidence for an against list, then decide what you think, then proceed accordingly.

It also really helps to talk in a longer conversation to someone that has had it and recovered. Please mesasge me directly and I'll give you my cell phone number and we can call, if you're open to it. I'm like 90% sure I can help you a lot. I did this for one other person years ago and he said it was very helpful.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

do think that the stronger your belief that it's TMS the more likely you'll be able to recover from it, but I don't agree that you need to be 100% convinced to recover, becasue I wasn't 100% convinced (maybe like 30% convinced in the weakest case) and still recovered, so clearly we know it's at least possible.

Hi! Congratulations on your recovery I'm just curious (and I agree with the premise of what you're saying - that 100% belief isn't necessary), with the one where you were 30% convinced, what did you think it was instead? I think the idea of having strong belief (as you've illustrated) is more to fuel the ability for someone to be indifferent to the symptoms and to allow them (which you were clearly able to do). I personally don't think I would have been able to do what you did with only being 30% convinced (that's probably a personality thing, but I wouldn't have been able to be indifferent and I wouldn't have been able to get my catastrophising under control), so I'm curious as to your thoughts about that and how you managed it, especially with that 30% symptom

 

[BloodMoon]

You won't be able to find 100% match, and you'll have to make the call with the closest matches you're able to.

Yep, it’s rare to find a 100% match. One of my symptoms was swelling and inflammation, and although I didn’t find an exact match, reading a couple of success stories involving some swelling/inflammation was enough to help me move forward. With my other symptoms I found no matches at all (although in my case I didn't look that hard tbh).

What I do see a lot, though, is people getting stuck searching for a match—not even a perfect one, just any close match. They come on the forums, look for it, disappear for a while (sometimes years!) and then come back and they're still searching. That’s why I always caution against holding out for a match at all—it can easily become a trap and keep people stuck, even if that’s not the intention. I guess it depends on the person, but at least if it's pointed out to them to be aware of that possible trap, they might not fall into it when they otherwise would/might.

 

[mysteriousmonkey29]

Hi! Congratulations on your recovery I'm just curious (and I agree with the premise of what you're saying - that 100% belief isn't necessary), with the one where you were 30% convinced, what did you think it was instead? I think the idea of having strong belief (as you've illustrated) is more to fuel the ability for someone to be indifferent to the symptoms and to allow them (which you were clearly able to do). I personally don't think I would have been able to do what you did with only being 30% convinced (that's probably a personality thing, but I wouldn't have been able to be indifferent and I wouldn't have been able to get my catastrophising under control), so I'm curious as to your thoughts about that and how you managed it, especially with that 30% symptom

Good question! The one I wasn't very convinced on was my back pain from sitting, which I had previously attributed to scoliosis. I wasn't very convinced because I definitely have scoliosis (you can see it on x-rays), and it is significant enough I had to wear a back brace for like 3 years in junior high to prevent the progression, and I got the back pain a couple of months after getting out of the back brace (at which point your spine returns to the previous maximum curvature it had, according to my doctors). It also wasn't ruining my life and spiraling into a chain reaction of other pain, like my hand problems were, so it seemed more typical and like it had a possible physical explanation (my spine is bent, maybe somehow that causes pain), and the pain onset was pretty consistent with when the spine was most bent. That being said, after recovering from the hand problems as described on this thread, I read through the whole list of conditions that are believed to usually be actually TMS in disguise, and back pain from scoliosis was one of them. And I had clearly had TMS before, so that was an argument for having it again. And the pain wasn't disabling or anything, so it wasn't that hard to ignore, I figured why not just go back to sitting how I used to (with no back pillow, etc. etc.) and see if the pain goes away? So I did that for like a week and then one day the pain went away. I guess it was TMS. Very odd.

I think for other symptoms that seem more severe (like my recent bout with sciatica type back/leg pain), I wouldn't have tried the TMS recovery method while being 30% convinced. I waited until I was like 90% convinced. The severity of the consequences of being wrong definitely affected my willingness to just try ignoring it. For example, I have a heart condition (frequent PVCs, about 20% of the time) that I recently had a procedure for (catheter ablation). I don't think this is attributable to TMS, probably like 1% convinced, just to allow for scientific doubt, but of course I would be extremely hesistant to ignore it, because if I'm wrong and don't get better, the result is an increased risk of death. Whereas with the back pain, if I was wrong, then I would just be in increased back pain for a couple weeks, not a big deal at the levels of pain I was having at the time.

 

[mysteriousmonkey29]

Yep, it’s rare to find a 100% match. One of my symptoms was swelling and inflammation, and although I didn’t find an exact match, reading a couple of success stories involving some swelling/inflammation was enough to help me move forward. With my other symptoms I found no matches at all (although in my case I didn't look that hard tbh).

What I do see a lot, though, is people getting stuck searching for a match—not even a perfect one, just any close match. They come on the forums, look for it, disappear for a while (sometimes years!) and then come back and they're still searching. That’s why I always caution against holding out for a match at all—it can easily become a trap and keep people stuck, even if that’s not the intention. I guess it depends on the person, but at least if it's pointed out to them to be aware of that possible trap, they might not fall into it when they otherwise would/might.

Yeah I think this is a good caution, and fully agree with it. I think it's worth looking for as close of a match as you can get, because if you find a close match, it'll likely help. But, it's a fine line because if you won't be convinced until you find one, you may never find one, and thus never be convinced, and never try the TMS recovery methods. Which is fine if it's not TMS, but if it is, then that's a huge loss.

I think another thing to keep in mind is just the fact that anyone is on this forum asking if something is TMS greatly increases the chances that it is. This is an obscure forum, there's a reason people end up here (usually after trying everything else and having major problems). I don't think that's enough evidence alone to assume that something is TMS, but it is a "prior" that I usually start with before hearing further situational evidence when talking to people on this forum.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

The severity of the consequences of being wrong definitely affected my willingness to just try ignoring it.

Thanks for sharing - and this makes complete sense and is smart