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TMS Theories vs Practical Applications - Kitchen Sink Edition (retitled 6.19.24)
- Thread starter Skylark7
- Start date
Skylark, you are incredibly accomplished. It's impressive.
Here's what I think. I think you are trying too hard. I'm going to say that again. I think you are trying too hard.
You've been focusing on yourself for 40+ years. Imagine that. 44 years of constant examination.
Focusing on yourself and your psychology has been the central thing in your life.
You are looking for some major trauma or reason -- which DOESN'T EXIST.
STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING.
There is no "there" there because there is no there there.
TMS doesn't have to come from some big, bad, dramatic thing that you must work through.
In fact if there was some big, bad, hairy thing there, then you would likely need all the fancy psychology treatments that you've already done.
That's not TMS that is major trauma. Plenty of us here had pretty normal childhoods.
TMS is much more simple. Repressed anger/rage (sometimes over seemingly trivial or childish things) with symptoms popping up to distract us so we don't go there.
Explore the repressed rage AND MOVE ON. I better say that part again to. ...and MOVE ON.
You've overdone the explore and forgotten to do the MOVE ON.
40+ years of focusing. Of COURSE your continuing to have symptoms. That is all you are thinking about. Constantly.
I'm not a therapist but I would suggest -- CLEAN SLATE.
Start over. Keep it simple. Don't look for the big, bad, monster.
Pen and paper. Talk (write) to your inner self and get back in touch with what and who pisses you off. Current you and little baby you.
Not anything big, just dumb stuff that you are/were mad as fuck about.
And then plan to move on. Stop thinking about it. Put it on the shelf.
Give yourself no more than an hour a day to work/think about it.
1 hour on this.
23 hours on other stuff.
Live your life.
Here's what I think. I think you are trying too hard. I'm going to say that again. I think you are trying too hard.
You've been focusing on yourself for 40+ years. Imagine that. 44 years of constant examination.
Focusing on yourself and your psychology has been the central thing in your life.
You are looking for some major trauma or reason -- which DOESN'T EXIST.
STOP LOOKING FOR SOMETHING.
There is no "there" there because there is no there there.
TMS doesn't have to come from some big, bad, dramatic thing that you must work through.
In fact if there was some big, bad, hairy thing there, then you would likely need all the fancy psychology treatments that you've already done.
That's not TMS that is major trauma. Plenty of us here had pretty normal childhoods.
TMS is much more simple. Repressed anger/rage (sometimes over seemingly trivial or childish things) with symptoms popping up to distract us so we don't go there.
Explore the repressed rage AND MOVE ON. I better say that part again to. ...and MOVE ON.
You've overdone the explore and forgotten to do the MOVE ON.
40+ years of focusing. Of COURSE your continuing to have symptoms. That is all you are thinking about. Constantly.
I'm not a therapist but I would suggest -- CLEAN SLATE.
Start over. Keep it simple. Don't look for the big, bad, monster.
Pen and paper. Talk (write) to your inner self and get back in touch with what and who pisses you off. Current you and little baby you.
Not anything big, just dumb stuff that you are/were mad as fuck about.
And then plan to move on. Stop thinking about it. Put it on the shelf.
Give yourself no more than an hour a day to work/think about it.
1 hour on this.
23 hours on other stuff.
Live your life.
Great post, but on a similar note @Skylark7 - it might be worth giving this a read:
https://anxietynomore.co.uk/anxiety-feeling-hyperaware-of-oneself/
It’s so easy to tie yourself into knots with the nature of our overthinking minds and the barrage of (often contradictory) advice surrounding this condition.
Skylark7
New Member
First, thanks to @Booble @Saffron & @m8888888 for responding. (How can you see my post? I deleted it last night!)
As you can imagine, it's hard to present a complete picture of oneself in a forum like this. To clarify what I hope to achieve with Sarno's TMS, I'll try to balance things out a bit with this admittedly long response.
I can see how my post gave a certain impression. Compared to many, I have spent lots of time focused inward. But a different list of things I've done would give you the opposite impression: I've also spent lots of time focused outward.
In some ways that's been good and healthy — like in my (former) career, which required me to learn, understand and tell other people's stories. In other ways, not so much — like the 18 years I spent ignoring my own preferences and needs to the point of denying I even had preferences and needs, literally risking my life to please someone whose life I deemed more important than my own.
When describing my experiences, challenges and traits, more than one thing can be true (as is probably the case for most). It depends on context as well as the time, situation and relationship being discussed.
All that said, to put a very big story into an itty-bitty nutshell: I've suffered from anxiety since before I can remember, and my anxiety has always been disproportionate to events.
In my life, I've done brave, badass things ... but I've also been unable to handle the grocery store. I've survived objectively serious traumas — most significantly, about 15 years ago, and again (in a very different situation) only last winter. But my anxiety became disabling long before that, and has grown more disabling over time.
Ironically, I experience much fewer symptoms of "classic anxiety" than I did before; I've abandoned OCD rituals, forgotten phobias, and stopped worrying about most things. But a somatic symptom has replaced them all in a way that's much more overpowering, and that's the symptom I'm trying to "reprocess."
Anyone who suffers from long-term anxiety knows it's a shape-shifter.
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ NAUSEA
◀ Nausea who?
▶ HEADACHE
◀ Oh. Anxiety. It's you.
▶ YOUR DOOR IS UNLOCKED
◀ It's not.
▶ YOU BETTER CHECK
◀ I don't need to do that anymore. Stop. Go away.
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ PALPITATIONS
◀ Yeah, no. Seriously. I know who you are.
▶ YOUR MOM'S MAD AT YOU
◀ Not this again.
▶ YOUR NEIGHBOR MAYBE WORSHIPS THE DEVIL
◀ That's not a thing for me anymore.
▶ BUT WHAT IF HE DOES
◀ I'm years past this one.
▶ DID YOU PAY YOUR CAR INSURANCE
◀ Pretty sure I did.
▶ WHAT IF YOU DIDN'T AND YOU HAVE A CRASH TONIGHT
◀ I'll check first thing in the —
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ YOUR DAD HASN'T CALLED, WHAT IF HE'S IN AN ACCIDENT
◀ Just stop. I know who you are. You're anxiety. Stop.
▶ EYES
◀ Huh?
▶ I'M YOUR EYES AND MY DEPTH-PERCEPTION IS OFF AND I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD DRIVE AT NIGHT OR ON HIGHWAYS ANYMORE
◀ Oh, Christ.
▶ ALSO YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY FOR GROCERIES AND YOUR COMPUTER HAS A VIRUS AND YOU NEVER CALLED JANEY BACK AND YOU PROMISED TO CLEAN THE FRIDGE AND EYES HEADACHE NAUSEA PALPITATIONS BLADDER INFECTION FEVER EYES EYES EYES NUCLEAR WAR NUCLEAR WAR NUCLEAR WAR KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there now???????????
▶ ORANGE YOU GLAD I NEVER SAID BANANA
Pretty much everything I listed, all those journeys into my past and into my mind, have been efforts to slay anxiety as its M.O. has changed over the years. And it's NOT like I was doing these therapies all at once or for a long time. Some were long-term and helpful, like Recovery Inc, while others were just one try, one day.
The fact is, I've successfully rid myself of most of my symptoms. I could make a long list of fears, anxieties, compulsions, preoccupations and dysfunctional behaviors that once controlled my life and no longer do. Most of those have been worry- and thought-related, manifesting as generally recognizable anxiety stuff: Nausea. Headaches. Insomnia. Palpitations. Trembling.
I've also dropped my checking compulsions (stoves, locks, electric cords) by about 98%. I've got most of that shit beat. And I worked hard to get there.
But apparently my anxiety had to have the last laugh. Because what it's been doing for seven years is the worst and weirdest thing its ever done: The somatic hyperawareness (or sensorimotor OCD or whatever you want to call it) of the burning mouth. I'd take back the nausea, the palpitations and every other "anxiety" symptom just to be able to ignore the inside of my mouth for an hour. Those symptoms responded, eventually, to "stop" therapy, CBT and the like. This symptom has not.
Others might see somatic hyperawareness as the same thing as self-absorption. But it's really not — at least, not to me.
My attention is locked not on my own importance but on a physical sensation inside my mouth very much like when you've JUST taken a gulp of too-hot coffee: That microsecond when you think "Oh, man, this is gonna burn" but it doesn't quite yet.
It's a numby-tingly oddness, a foreign metallic something, that feels like an emergency. It demands you TAKE NOTE, as a stubbed toe or bitten tongue does.
It's as easy to ignore as a sledgehammer on the sidewalk three feet away. It's so "loud" it's hard to drive, or count change, or dial a phone number, or remember what I was doing three seconds ago. It doesn't come and go; it doesn't get better or worse; it doesn't retreat when I'm doing something fun or interesting. It creates an all-over-body unease, a visceral anxiety, sometimes a buzzing vibration all over and inside my body. At my calmest moments my body stress dial is at 9, and the slightest stimuli or minor crisis sends it to 11. It's been this way every waking moment since sometime in 2017.
I've already given up on finding a "cure" for the sensation itself. It no longer matters whether it was caused by nerve damage from gastric reflux, as doctors suggest, or whether it's purely a manifestation of my anxiety (or, symbolically, of my mouth demanding to be heard since I spent many years ignoring my own needs ... despite the impression yesterday's post left).
I don't care what "caused" it; it's here now. I really have no doubt that it's TMS. And I want to train my brain to disregard it, even partially, or even sometimes.
The first few years of this symptom, I tried VERY hard to "just go on with life." I was already on Disability after my traumatic experience and PTSD diagnosis, but I'd always intended to return to work part-time, and I missed an active social life, community activities and hobbies (including performing improv theater).
But I had to do these things IN ADDITION to enduring the sensation. This caused massive neurological overwhelm. Even when I was having "fun," I was straining to experience anything around the sensation.
After a few years of this, I basically gave up. I've become a recluse in a way very unlike me, and I've lost interest in the many things that brought joy to my life. I do still do some things: movies, whatever. But it takes enormous effort and tends to remind me how much harder everything is now.
I've known this was my brain's efforts to "protect" me from nonexistent danger for at least five years now. And I've never been worried that it's a medically dangerous condition. I simply wanted to habituate to it. After conventional OCD therapy, CBT, hypnotherapy, mindfulness meditation and multiple other efforts failed, I discovered Pain Reprocessing Therapy after Googling something like "teaching my brain to disregard a symptom."
I had to wait almost nine months to see the one doctor in my area familiar with Pain Reprocessing Therapy, and he's not taking patients. So I launched into "Unlearn Your Pain" and found this group.
But I became discouraged when I discovered, partway through, that so much of his book refers to childhood trauma/abuse, suppressed rage, etc. ... because I've already BTDT. I HAVE explored my childhood, and I HAVE made peace with it (at least, I think I have). I've done the same regarding my ex, who was legitimately abusive and who threatened my life. Even as Dr Schubiner acknowledges that not everyone with MindBody Syndrome was abused and that HE was not, his examples (so far) include that element.
Respectfully (and I'm just starting out, so I could be wrong about this), folks here are talking about childhood abuse and trauma, telling me to acknowledge my rage, allow myself to feel angry, etc etc, while at the same time telling me not to look back or focus on the past.
The program seems to suggest I've not acknowledged childhood hurts and traumas, but when I explain that I HAVE, I'm told I'm trying too hard and that I'm self-absorbed. I'm told to be honest and allow myself to be vulnerable, but I'm not sure what that means. If anything, I allowed myself to be TOO vulnerable in the past. I guess I'm just confused.
A few final things regarding my sense of urgency (and why I need to spend much more than an hour a day on recovery):
First, I'm having a significant surgery later this month, ironically on the object of my torture: the inside of my mouth. I am trying very hard to have some small measure of relief before the procedure and the weeks of healing after that.
Second, my mom, almost 90, has been on the decline for years and is basically in the process of passing away.
I fear the surgery and my mom's death could push me into the abyss I've been beside for several years now.
In addition to all this, I actually DID almost die this last winter from a medical (not TMS related) condition. I was hospitalized for almost three months and unconscious for some of that time. I'm still in the process of medical recovery. So even if my TMS wasn't making me miserable, I wouldn't be doing much "living life" now anyway, and I'd still be recovering from surgery later this month. This is the time. If not now, when?
Anyway ... I'm relieved to hear that it doesn't HAVE to be some big, giant trauma holding me back. And I AM making my way though success stories. Again, I'm feeling discouraged ATM but that might well change.
________________
If anyone has read this, thanks. I understand most won't, but I had to write it.
I'll be away for a few days attending to my mom and taking care of some medical and personal business. So, no hurry to respond if anyone wants to.
As you can imagine, it's hard to present a complete picture of oneself in a forum like this. To clarify what I hope to achieve with Sarno's TMS, I'll try to balance things out a bit with this admittedly long response.
"... This constant self-focus and obsessive introspection can lead to them experiencing the feeling of being hyperaware of themselves, their thoughts and actions." ~Article from @m8888888
I can see how my post gave a certain impression. Compared to many, I have spent lots of time focused inward. But a different list of things I've done would give you the opposite impression: I've also spent lots of time focused outward.
In some ways that's been good and healthy — like in my (former) career, which required me to learn, understand and tell other people's stories. In other ways, not so much — like the 18 years I spent ignoring my own preferences and needs to the point of denying I even had preferences and needs, literally risking my life to please someone whose life I deemed more important than my own.
When describing my experiences, challenges and traits, more than one thing can be true (as is probably the case for most). It depends on context as well as the time, situation and relationship being discussed.
All that said, to put a very big story into an itty-bitty nutshell: I've suffered from anxiety since before I can remember, and my anxiety has always been disproportionate to events.
In my life, I've done brave, badass things ... but I've also been unable to handle the grocery store. I've survived objectively serious traumas — most significantly, about 15 years ago, and again (in a very different situation) only last winter. But my anxiety became disabling long before that, and has grown more disabling over time.
Ironically, I experience much fewer symptoms of "classic anxiety" than I did before; I've abandoned OCD rituals, forgotten phobias, and stopped worrying about most things. But a somatic symptom has replaced them all in a way that's much more overpowering, and that's the symptom I'm trying to "reprocess."
Anyone who suffers from long-term anxiety knows it's a shape-shifter.
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ NAUSEA
◀ Nausea who?
▶ HEADACHE
◀ Oh. Anxiety. It's you.
▶ YOUR DOOR IS UNLOCKED
◀ It's not.
▶ YOU BETTER CHECK
◀ I don't need to do that anymore. Stop. Go away.
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ PALPITATIONS
◀ Yeah, no. Seriously. I know who you are.
▶ YOUR MOM'S MAD AT YOU
◀ Not this again.
▶ YOUR NEIGHBOR MAYBE WORSHIPS THE DEVIL
◀ That's not a thing for me anymore.
▶ BUT WHAT IF HE DOES
◀ I'm years past this one.
▶ DID YOU PAY YOUR CAR INSURANCE
◀ Pretty sure I did.
▶ WHAT IF YOU DIDN'T AND YOU HAVE A CRASH TONIGHT
◀ I'll check first thing in the —
▶ KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there?
▶ YOUR DAD HASN'T CALLED, WHAT IF HE'S IN AN ACCIDENT
◀ Just stop. I know who you are. You're anxiety. Stop.
▶ EYES
◀ Huh?
▶ I'M YOUR EYES AND MY DEPTH-PERCEPTION IS OFF AND I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD DRIVE AT NIGHT OR ON HIGHWAYS ANYMORE
◀ Oh, Christ.
▶ ALSO YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY FOR GROCERIES AND YOUR COMPUTER HAS A VIRUS AND YOU NEVER CALLED JANEY BACK AND YOU PROMISED TO CLEAN THE FRIDGE AND EYES HEADACHE NAUSEA PALPITATIONS BLADDER INFECTION FEVER EYES EYES EYES NUCLEAR WAR NUCLEAR WAR NUCLEAR WAR KNOCK-KNOCK
◀ Who's there now???????????
▶ ORANGE YOU GLAD I NEVER SAID BANANA
Pretty much everything I listed, all those journeys into my past and into my mind, have been efforts to slay anxiety as its M.O. has changed over the years. And it's NOT like I was doing these therapies all at once or for a long time. Some were long-term and helpful, like Recovery Inc, while others were just one try, one day.
The fact is, I've successfully rid myself of most of my symptoms. I could make a long list of fears, anxieties, compulsions, preoccupations and dysfunctional behaviors that once controlled my life and no longer do. Most of those have been worry- and thought-related, manifesting as generally recognizable anxiety stuff: Nausea. Headaches. Insomnia. Palpitations. Trembling.
I've also dropped my checking compulsions (stoves, locks, electric cords) by about 98%. I've got most of that shit beat. And I worked hard to get there.
But apparently my anxiety had to have the last laugh. Because what it's been doing for seven years is the worst and weirdest thing its ever done: The somatic hyperawareness (or sensorimotor OCD or whatever you want to call it) of the burning mouth. I'd take back the nausea, the palpitations and every other "anxiety" symptom just to be able to ignore the inside of my mouth for an hour. Those symptoms responded, eventually, to "stop" therapy, CBT and the like. This symptom has not.
Others might see somatic hyperawareness as the same thing as self-absorption. But it's really not — at least, not to me.
My description below will be the last time I write it here. In the future, if someone wants to know, I'll direct them to this post. Writing this again and again will only reinforce it in my own head, and the details of this symptom are irrelevant to my use of Sarno's TMS therapy or any other method.
My attention is locked not on my own importance but on a physical sensation inside my mouth very much like when you've JUST taken a gulp of too-hot coffee: That microsecond when you think "Oh, man, this is gonna burn" but it doesn't quite yet.
It's a numby-tingly oddness, a foreign metallic something, that feels like an emergency. It demands you TAKE NOTE, as a stubbed toe or bitten tongue does.
It's as easy to ignore as a sledgehammer on the sidewalk three feet away. It's so "loud" it's hard to drive, or count change, or dial a phone number, or remember what I was doing three seconds ago. It doesn't come and go; it doesn't get better or worse; it doesn't retreat when I'm doing something fun or interesting. It creates an all-over-body unease, a visceral anxiety, sometimes a buzzing vibration all over and inside my body. At my calmest moments my body stress dial is at 9, and the slightest stimuli or minor crisis sends it to 11. It's been this way every waking moment since sometime in 2017.
I've already given up on finding a "cure" for the sensation itself. It no longer matters whether it was caused by nerve damage from gastric reflux, as doctors suggest, or whether it's purely a manifestation of my anxiety (or, symbolically, of my mouth demanding to be heard since I spent many years ignoring my own needs ... despite the impression yesterday's post left).
I don't care what "caused" it; it's here now. I really have no doubt that it's TMS. And I want to train my brain to disregard it, even partially, or even sometimes.
The first few years of this symptom, I tried VERY hard to "just go on with life." I was already on Disability after my traumatic experience and PTSD diagnosis, but I'd always intended to return to work part-time, and I missed an active social life, community activities and hobbies (including performing improv theater).
But I had to do these things IN ADDITION to enduring the sensation. This caused massive neurological overwhelm. Even when I was having "fun," I was straining to experience anything around the sensation.
After a few years of this, I basically gave up. I've become a recluse in a way very unlike me, and I've lost interest in the many things that brought joy to my life. I do still do some things: movies, whatever. But it takes enormous effort and tends to remind me how much harder everything is now.
I've known this was my brain's efforts to "protect" me from nonexistent danger for at least five years now. And I've never been worried that it's a medically dangerous condition. I simply wanted to habituate to it. After conventional OCD therapy, CBT, hypnotherapy, mindfulness meditation and multiple other efforts failed, I discovered Pain Reprocessing Therapy after Googling something like "teaching my brain to disregard a symptom."
I had to wait almost nine months to see the one doctor in my area familiar with Pain Reprocessing Therapy, and he's not taking patients. So I launched into "Unlearn Your Pain" and found this group.
But I became discouraged when I discovered, partway through, that so much of his book refers to childhood trauma/abuse, suppressed rage, etc. ... because I've already BTDT. I HAVE explored my childhood, and I HAVE made peace with it (at least, I think I have). I've done the same regarding my ex, who was legitimately abusive and who threatened my life. Even as Dr Schubiner acknowledges that not everyone with MindBody Syndrome was abused and that HE was not, his examples (so far) include that element.
Respectfully (and I'm just starting out, so I could be wrong about this), folks here are talking about childhood abuse and trauma, telling me to acknowledge my rage, allow myself to feel angry, etc etc, while at the same time telling me not to look back or focus on the past.
The program seems to suggest I've not acknowledged childhood hurts and traumas, but when I explain that I HAVE, I'm told I'm trying too hard and that I'm self-absorbed. I'm told to be honest and allow myself to be vulnerable, but I'm not sure what that means. If anything, I allowed myself to be TOO vulnerable in the past. I guess I'm just confused.
A few final things regarding my sense of urgency (and why I need to spend much more than an hour a day on recovery):
First, I'm having a significant surgery later this month, ironically on the object of my torture: the inside of my mouth. I am trying very hard to have some small measure of relief before the procedure and the weeks of healing after that.
Second, my mom, almost 90, has been on the decline for years and is basically in the process of passing away.
I fear the surgery and my mom's death could push me into the abyss I've been beside for several years now.
In addition to all this, I actually DID almost die this last winter from a medical (not TMS related) condition. I was hospitalized for almost three months and unconscious for some of that time. I'm still in the process of medical recovery. So even if my TMS wasn't making me miserable, I wouldn't be doing much "living life" now anyway, and I'd still be recovering from surgery later this month. This is the time. If not now, when?
Anyway ... I'm relieved to hear that it doesn't HAVE to be some big, giant trauma holding me back. And I AM making my way though success stories. Again, I'm feeling discouraged ATM but that might well change.
________________
If anyone has read this, thanks. I understand most won't, but I had to write it.
I'll be away for a few days attending to my mom and taking care of some medical and personal business. So, no hurry to respond if anyone wants to.
Hi SkyL,
I'm sorry to hear about your mom. That's so challenging, especially when you're dealing with your own stuff. The hardest thing in the world. (Both my parents overlapped with terminal illness. It was awful, and I didn't have the physical/mental strength to handle it.)
I think you might have missed an important part of the point that I was making. I didn't mean to imply that you weren't also doing other things and I definitely didn't mean that you are self absorbed. I meant that, in your own words, you've been working very, very hard to solve your issues for the past 40 years. You listed a long list of the various treatments, the learning, the becoming an expert in psychology, et cetera. A big chunk of your brain has been struggling to find the solution. And of course so --- the TMS personality is perfectionism! We are going to be PERFECT in how we solve this.
From reading what you wrote above, everything you say sounds very typical. Doing badass things while also not handling a grocery store. Yes, most people with anxiety hide it well and live that life of dichotomy. Your knock knock brain conversation is also the same thing we all go through.
I didn't mean to belittle your working on yourself. That's all good. We all find ways to muddle through this life with our brains trying to scare the shit out of us CONSTANTLY. I was trying to make the point that you are overly focused on solving this "problem" and Sarno's method requires less focus not more. Or rather less focus on the symptoms, and more focus on digging out the emotions.
Re: The mouth.
I can related to all you say. My brain has worked the same way yours has for as long as you as well. TMS was not really an issue because it was more my brain/thoughts doing exactly as you describe in your knock knock. It didn't turn into physical symptoms until a couple years ago. I too have gone through the, "I would rather have ____ [previous symptoms/difficulty]_____ than this!"
When my chest hurt, I rather have anything else because it made me fear heart attack. When my tooth/teeth hurt, I wanted to have the chest pain back because it was so uncomfortable in my mouth. When it moved to my throat, I wanted to the tooth pain back because then I couldn't speak and I have to be able to speak. Sometimes I would try to shift the pain mentally into my foot. The foot seems like a good place for pain. Nothing scary there.
Then I found Sarno. The first day that I wrote down, "What am I angry about?" I was sure I wasn't angry about anything. I'm not an angry person. Pretty even keeled all my life. But when I wrote those words down my heart started pounding at what felt like a million beats a minute. I threw the paper across the room and said out loud to myself, "I rather have the pain than this!" It felt like I was going to die. And all I had done was write down, "What am I angry about?" Me. A placid, super easy going person. The next day I tried again. This time I started out with writing, "Wow, that was weird" or "What was that all about" or something like that. I ended up writing and writing and as I wrote, and as I started to imagine being the crap out of someone, my throat pain suddenly lifted. Just. Like. That.
What I'm trying to say is that your situation doesn't sound that different from a hundred other people.
You can "Yes, but" (to use Jan's eye-opening, tough love phrase) to all the advice you get. You can find the little contradictions that make it seem not worth learning and trying. Or you can stop focusing on how your situation is unique and that you've already tried everything and simply --- read or re-read Sarno and "do the work." You've spent a lot of time writing your posts here so something is drawing you to this, despite another part of your brain trying really hard to convince you to walk away.
Acknowledging childhood hurts and traumas is different from finding out the suppressed emotions that they caused.
Being honest and vulnerable is just about letting stuff that is deep in there, emotions not experiences, come out.
Not with a therapist, but with yourself so they can realllllly come out. Uncensored.
If it's urgent you recover, then it's even MORE important to work less on it not more.
I don't think you'll understand what I'm saying but the message here is that any symptom that you think about and focus on will continue. Every time you think about the discomfort in your mouth you add fuel to the fire.
When you use the word "recovery" it's similar to Diane when she was using the word "handicapped" (sorry, Diane).
You don't need to be in recovery. That's a big word.
You need to let things go, and then, and only then, will you "recover."
But of course when your mouth is uncomfortable and when you have a health anxiety brain, you will be thinking about it 24/7. Believe me I know. A little piece of your brain, regardless of what you are doing is thinking about it. Every second. (I know. I do the same.)
Instead whenever you feel yourself thinking about the discomfort, switch to thinking about your emotions, your anger, your rage.
Or not. You have to want to do this. And you have to tell the part of your brain that is telling you this is stupid and don't bother to go take a hike.
Or you can let the part of your brain run the show and not give it a whirl.
Either way. Wishing you the best of luck.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom. That's so challenging, especially when you're dealing with your own stuff. The hardest thing in the world. (Both my parents overlapped with terminal illness. It was awful, and I didn't have the physical/mental strength to handle it.)
I think you might have missed an important part of the point that I was making. I didn't mean to imply that you weren't also doing other things and I definitely didn't mean that you are self absorbed. I meant that, in your own words, you've been working very, very hard to solve your issues for the past 40 years. You listed a long list of the various treatments, the learning, the becoming an expert in psychology, et cetera. A big chunk of your brain has been struggling to find the solution. And of course so --- the TMS personality is perfectionism! We are going to be PERFECT in how we solve this.
From reading what you wrote above, everything you say sounds very typical. Doing badass things while also not handling a grocery store. Yes, most people with anxiety hide it well and live that life of dichotomy. Your knock knock brain conversation is also the same thing we all go through.
I didn't mean to belittle your working on yourself. That's all good. We all find ways to muddle through this life with our brains trying to scare the shit out of us CONSTANTLY. I was trying to make the point that you are overly focused on solving this "problem" and Sarno's method requires less focus not more. Or rather less focus on the symptoms, and more focus on digging out the emotions.
Re: The mouth.
I can related to all you say. My brain has worked the same way yours has for as long as you as well. TMS was not really an issue because it was more my brain/thoughts doing exactly as you describe in your knock knock. It didn't turn into physical symptoms until a couple years ago. I too have gone through the, "I would rather have ____ [previous symptoms/difficulty]_____ than this!"
When my chest hurt, I rather have anything else because it made me fear heart attack. When my tooth/teeth hurt, I wanted to have the chest pain back because it was so uncomfortable in my mouth. When it moved to my throat, I wanted to the tooth pain back because then I couldn't speak and I have to be able to speak. Sometimes I would try to shift the pain mentally into my foot. The foot seems like a good place for pain. Nothing scary there.
Then I found Sarno. The first day that I wrote down, "What am I angry about?" I was sure I wasn't angry about anything. I'm not an angry person. Pretty even keeled all my life. But when I wrote those words down my heart started pounding at what felt like a million beats a minute. I threw the paper across the room and said out loud to myself, "I rather have the pain than this!" It felt like I was going to die. And all I had done was write down, "What am I angry about?" Me. A placid, super easy going person. The next day I tried again. This time I started out with writing, "Wow, that was weird" or "What was that all about" or something like that. I ended up writing and writing and as I wrote, and as I started to imagine being the crap out of someone, my throat pain suddenly lifted. Just. Like. That.
What I'm trying to say is that your situation doesn't sound that different from a hundred other people.
You can "Yes, but" (to use Jan's eye-opening, tough love phrase) to all the advice you get. You can find the little contradictions that make it seem not worth learning and trying. Or you can stop focusing on how your situation is unique and that you've already tried everything and simply --- read or re-read Sarno and "do the work." You've spent a lot of time writing your posts here so something is drawing you to this, despite another part of your brain trying really hard to convince you to walk away.
Acknowledging childhood hurts and traumas is different from finding out the suppressed emotions that they caused.
Being honest and vulnerable is just about letting stuff that is deep in there, emotions not experiences, come out.
Not with a therapist, but with yourself so they can realllllly come out. Uncensored.
If it's urgent you recover, then it's even MORE important to work less on it not more.
I don't think you'll understand what I'm saying but the message here is that any symptom that you think about and focus on will continue. Every time you think about the discomfort in your mouth you add fuel to the fire.
When you use the word "recovery" it's similar to Diane when she was using the word "handicapped" (sorry, Diane).
You don't need to be in recovery. That's a big word.
You need to let things go, and then, and only then, will you "recover."
But of course when your mouth is uncomfortable and when you have a health anxiety brain, you will be thinking about it 24/7. Believe me I know. A little piece of your brain, regardless of what you are doing is thinking about it. Every second. (I know. I do the same.)
Instead whenever you feel yourself thinking about the discomfort, switch to thinking about your emotions, your anger, your rage.
Or not. You have to want to do this. And you have to tell the part of your brain that is telling you this is stupid and don't bother to go take a hike.
Or you can let the part of your brain run the show and not give it a whirl.
Either way. Wishing you the best of luck.
Diana-M
Beloved Grand Eagle
@Skylark7
Your story sounds so hard and I feel for your suffering. I wish I could help!
I tried Booble’s journaling technique. I’m trying it now. And she’s right. A bunch of stuff comes out that even therapy can’t get to. A ringleader of this kind of healing work is Nichole Sachs. She has a book, a YouTube channel and a podcast.
One thing I will try and convey is there are quite a few more avenues besides Sarno and Unlearn Your Pain. Some of the other avenues might speak more to you. One entails looking at personality traits that cause TMS. Another is focusing on the perceived danger that your primitive brain sees and soothing it.
The Pain Recovery Program on this wiki is super simple to take. Very bite-size chapters that are quite eye-opening. You might get something new from there. It addresses all the other aspects that influence TMS besides childhood issues. I was surprised to learn all this!
There’s a cool app called DARE that has a community to go with it for tackling anxiety. It also has success stories. The app is based on a book by the same name.
Dan Buglio is another leader in TMS healing. He has daily YouTube videos and other resources. He also has a group counseling thing. His entire focus is on calming the brain. Healing the anxiety. On YouTube he has about 75 success story interviews. They are amazing!
I hope some of these help!
Your story sounds so hard and I feel for your suffering. I wish I could help!
I tried Booble’s journaling technique. I’m trying it now. And she’s right. A bunch of stuff comes out that even therapy can’t get to. A ringleader of this kind of healing work is Nichole Sachs. She has a book, a YouTube channel and a podcast.
One thing I will try and convey is there are quite a few more avenues besides Sarno and Unlearn Your Pain. Some of the other avenues might speak more to you. One entails looking at personality traits that cause TMS. Another is focusing on the perceived danger that your primitive brain sees and soothing it.
The Pain Recovery Program on this wiki is super simple to take. Very bite-size chapters that are quite eye-opening. You might get something new from there. It addresses all the other aspects that influence TMS besides childhood issues. I was surprised to learn all this!
There’s a cool app called DARE that has a community to go with it for tackling anxiety. It also has success stories. The app is based on a book by the same name.
Dan Buglio is another leader in TMS healing. He has daily YouTube videos and other resources. He also has a group counseling thing. His entire focus is on calming the brain. Healing the anxiety. On YouTube he has about 75 success story interviews. They are amazing!
I hope some of these help!
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Cactusflower
Beloved Grand Eagle
Oh, how I relate to your thought process you described. However I will challenge your notion that it is just anxiety at play. There are elements of OCD in the manner of repetitive and ritualistic catastrophizing. Some people with TMS only catastrophize (or recognize) about symptoms. Others have What Hanscom calls Persistent Negative Thoughts which he has found challenging in patients, but I saw him comment in past interviews that he was writing a book about. I find Claire Weekes methods work well for not believing these thoughts most of the time but the methods don’t generalize well in a world that seems constantly on the brink of *whatever*. However it’s simply the mind trying to convince yourself you can’t handle the load, but your story proves that you can.
Look at the pure shitstorm you’ve been through and what I am sure is a desperation to get to the other side of it all. Desperation breeds striving (another TMS attribute) and that is so much self pressure.
You mentioned above about confusion and where to start. You know, you don’t HAVE to start where everyone says you “must”. One thing I’ve learned about many in the TMS world is that they think there is I only one path, one way -which is the way they found worked for them. However if you listen to or read about success stories (not just here but there are many other books) there are so many various ways.
Start where you can. I suggest you start with the despiration, adding in a bit of the confusion. And where you are at, it’s ok look at doing things more frequently for awhile but I’d suggest making the bulk of that work things that calm the nervous system.
I started this work with a year mostly bed bound. So there were hours of meditation or simply listening to “zen” music ) while doing calming things (counting breath is calming for me). The emotional and mental work brought distressing anxiety and overwhelm, but listening to gentle fiction (my library has a free app so I can listen on my phone) brought the ability to see many things in the characters that were mind/body related, helped me experience emotion through characters… and escape a bit. Start with learning it’s ok to focus on you and to treat yourself with the care you offered others. To reassure yourself you are on the right path.
My early journaling looked at why I was worthy of this work. I made lists of goals (not all ended up being desires to be fulfilled) - both physical challenges and personal, I made a list of my immediate support network (including people on this wiki and the wiki.. however I was 1st on the list), and also a list of people who supported me but did not understand TMS. I just needed to feel like I could start somewhere. These helped immensely and I’ve referred to them and even removed people from the list (and my life, in a difficult but positive way).
My mom is also at the end of her lifespan in her late 90’s and is a challenging person in some respects. It has been difficult but I put myself first. I was trained to put her first, but that had to change.
Your mind is going to constantly think world destruction is easier than thinking you can do hard things. It’s a lie because you’ve got such resilience.
Look at the pure shitstorm you’ve been through and what I am sure is a desperation to get to the other side of it all. Desperation breeds striving (another TMS attribute) and that is so much self pressure.
You mentioned above about confusion and where to start. You know, you don’t HAVE to start where everyone says you “must”. One thing I’ve learned about many in the TMS world is that they think there is I only one path, one way -which is the way they found worked for them. However if you listen to or read about success stories (not just here but there are many other books) there are so many various ways.
Start where you can. I suggest you start with the despiration, adding in a bit of the confusion. And where you are at, it’s ok look at doing things more frequently for awhile but I’d suggest making the bulk of that work things that calm the nervous system.
I started this work with a year mostly bed bound. So there were hours of meditation or simply listening to “zen” music ) while doing calming things (counting breath is calming for me). The emotional and mental work brought distressing anxiety and overwhelm, but listening to gentle fiction (my library has a free app so I can listen on my phone) brought the ability to see many things in the characters that were mind/body related, helped me experience emotion through characters… and escape a bit. Start with learning it’s ok to focus on you and to treat yourself with the care you offered others. To reassure yourself you are on the right path.
My early journaling looked at why I was worthy of this work. I made lists of goals (not all ended up being desires to be fulfilled) - both physical challenges and personal, I made a list of my immediate support network (including people on this wiki and the wiki.. however I was 1st on the list), and also a list of people who supported me but did not understand TMS. I just needed to feel like I could start somewhere. These helped immensely and I’ve referred to them and even removed people from the list (and my life, in a difficult but positive way).
My mom is also at the end of her lifespan in her late 90’s and is a challenging person in some respects. It has been difficult but I put myself first. I was trained to put her first, but that had to change.
Your mind is going to constantly think world destruction is easier than thinking you can do hard things. It’s a lie because you’ve got such resilience.
Diana-M
Beloved Grand Eagle
@Booble and @Cactusflower,
I really loved your advice and wisdom, here—Being a newbie, myself. Thank you! Bookmarking! Pulling for you, @Skylark7. Somehow, you will get through this. We both will!
I really loved your advice and wisdom, here—Being a newbie, myself. Thank you! Bookmarking! Pulling for you, @Skylark7. Somehow, you will get through this. We both will!
JanAtheCPA
Beloved Grand Eagle
Probably because browsers hang onto a page if it's not actively refreshed. According to the time stamps, @Booble's first response to you was posted four hours after you started the thread, and just a couple minutes after you changed it to "post deleted". This means that she had the original page loaded and was working on her response. Submitting her response would cause the page to refresh and your deleted text would then disappear for her.
As you discovered, you can't delete an entire thread once it's posted, even as the author. All you can do is edit your own content (you can delete an entire post only if it is part of an ongoing thread). You might also notice that if anyone quotes your original post in their response, those quotes remain inside their post.
That being said, I don't think you received good advice when you were told you could delete your content. As you can see here, and perhaps over on that other thread as well, the discussion ends up disjointed, and very puzzling to others who come across it. In my personal opinion only, I don't think it's a good look to try to manipulate or cover up what you have written in the honesty of where you were at when you wrote it. In fact, honesty is pretty much the whole point of this work. For example, on that other thread, my snarkiness was also not a good look. I'm not sorry about the point I was trying to get across, but I could have done better. I could go back and edit it, but then the following comments by you and JT would make no sense, and I am not going to invalidate your comments by removing the reason for their existence. Ultimately, for me, it's all about learning and living with Acceptance. I have to acknowledge that I make mistakes, but I have simply decided that it's not the end of the world, and that it's possible to accept my actions and myself and move on. I might even have offered an apology on that other thread but by the time I had logged in again late the next day, the discussion had evolved way past that moment, so my desire to look better is no longer important in the bigger picture. My bit of snarkiness will have to remain as is
@Skylark7, I'm going to submit for your consideration that these attempts to manipulate your two posts is a perfect example of why you are not succeeding in your recovery. @Booble was spot on when she told you to just STOP. You're trying too hard. Your obsession and perfectionism are still ruling you. You're trying so hard justify yourself to us, that I can't help but wonder if, on some unconscious level, you are desperately trying to justify your existence to yourself. You should not have to be doing this.
"All" you need to do is accept yourself. I put "all" in quotes, because of course self-acceptance is the hardest thing in the world. I urge you to take this on as your new, and only, goal.
~Jan
ValkyrKai
Peer Supporter
“Respectfully (and I'm just starting out, so I could be wrong about this), folks here are talking about childhood abuse and trauma, telling me to acknowledge my rage, allow myself to feel angry, etc etc, while at the same time telling me not to look back or focus on the past.
The program seems to suggest I've not acknowledged childhood hurts and traumas, but when I explain that I HAVE, I'm told I'm trying too hard and that I'm self-absorbed. I'm told to be honest and allow myself to be vulnerable, but I'm not sure what that means. If anything, I allowed myself to be TOO vulnerable in the past. I guess I'm just confused.”
Hey @Skylark7
I’m very new to all of this myself. And being the perfectionistic “by the book” type of person I am I’ve had difficulty with the seemingly conflicting information that can be found here.
but it really clicked for me a couple days ago (and for the first time in my life) how much of a perfectionist I really am and how discouraged I can get if I’m not able to do things “the right way”.
the internet is a hard place to navigate. It’s not structured like an encyclopedia, or a tutorial, or a syllabus. Especially on social media where different people are constantly sharing new information and ideas. It can be difficult and disheartening to get started on a plan, only to read two days in that it wasn’t “the optimal way” for someone and “you should focus on this instead”. It’s a big reason I have such a hard time picking exercise routines.
but the truth is: the only “right” way is the way that works for you. And what I seem to gather from this forum is that: except for a few key things (accepting that it’s TMS and focusing your emotions as much as possible instead of your physical symptoms) the large majority of advice and tools are things that you can take or leave. I’ve taken to copy pasting little passages of advice into a note page on my phone that I read through everyday; Some of it seems conflicting but it all resonates with me in some way.
I also struggle to get started on something if I don’t have crystal clear instructions on what to do. When I’m told to “write down a list of past stressors” I had so many follow up questions. “How specific should my entries be? Is it just childhood or teen years or everything in between? Phrasing? Topic? Relevance?” But an internet page on a computer screen can only tell me what’s already written there. And that leaves me with two choices:
1. either put it off because I don’t have the answers. Or
2. I decide the answers.
because really it’s up to you. That’s why it’s vague. Nobody can tell you the right way to do it.
They can only share what helps them and hope you can add it to your toolbox.
anyway! I hope that was at all useful, I’m still really new here so feel free to tell me I’m wrong or misinformed. Or if I’m just way off base. That happens to me a lot!
sorry I’m on mobile and I’m not great at using the quote feature.
The program seems to suggest I've not acknowledged childhood hurts and traumas, but when I explain that I HAVE, I'm told I'm trying too hard and that I'm self-absorbed. I'm told to be honest and allow myself to be vulnerable, but I'm not sure what that means. If anything, I allowed myself to be TOO vulnerable in the past. I guess I'm just confused.”
Hey @Skylark7
I’m very new to all of this myself. And being the perfectionistic “by the book” type of person I am I’ve had difficulty with the seemingly conflicting information that can be found here.
but it really clicked for me a couple days ago (and for the first time in my life) how much of a perfectionist I really am and how discouraged I can get if I’m not able to do things “the right way”.
the internet is a hard place to navigate. It’s not structured like an encyclopedia, or a tutorial, or a syllabus. Especially on social media where different people are constantly sharing new information and ideas. It can be difficult and disheartening to get started on a plan, only to read two days in that it wasn’t “the optimal way” for someone and “you should focus on this instead”. It’s a big reason I have such a hard time picking exercise routines.
but the truth is: the only “right” way is the way that works for you. And what I seem to gather from this forum is that: except for a few key things (accepting that it’s TMS and focusing your emotions as much as possible instead of your physical symptoms) the large majority of advice and tools are things that you can take or leave. I’ve taken to copy pasting little passages of advice into a note page on my phone that I read through everyday; Some of it seems conflicting but it all resonates with me in some way.
I also struggle to get started on something if I don’t have crystal clear instructions on what to do. When I’m told to “write down a list of past stressors” I had so many follow up questions. “How specific should my entries be? Is it just childhood or teen years or everything in between? Phrasing? Topic? Relevance?” But an internet page on a computer screen can only tell me what’s already written there. And that leaves me with two choices:
1. either put it off because I don’t have the answers. Or
2. I decide the answers.
because really it’s up to you. That’s why it’s vague. Nobody can tell you the right way to do it.
They can only share what helps them and hope you can add it to your toolbox.
anyway! I hope that was at all useful, I’m still really new here so feel free to tell me I’m wrong or misinformed. Or if I’m just way off base. That happens to me a lot!
sorry I’m on mobile and I’m not great at using the quote feature.
Diana-M
Beloved Grand Eagle
ValkyrKai, I do this too! Someday we should post them!
Love your post. Filled with wisdom and clarity. You have observed what I have. It’s a quest! Best of luck on your journey!
ValkyrKai
Peer Supporter
ValkyrKai, I do this too! Someday we should post them!
That would be fun! We should.
I wonder if we would have any overlap.best of luck to you as well!
JanAtheCPA
Beloved Grand Eagle
Two quotes worth repeating from @ValkyrKai!
Of course, sadly and even tragically, in spite of the huge diversity of experience and the many (perhaps infinitely) different paths to success that we have in our community, we will continue to see certain individuals (like the OP) who tell us "Yes, but.... I already tried everything you're suggesting, and I already know everything you're telling me and none of it has worked". They are suffering and they are desperate and they are still hoping to find the one thing that will work for them, but all they end up doing is invalidating the advice that is offered, over and over again, and ultimately rejecting the collective experience found here. I say "they" do this, but of course what we're really seeing is the power of some very resistant TMS brain mechanisms.
In fact, the SEP (Structured Educational Program) is pretty much designed to provide ideas and activities from a bunch of different resources. Definitely much more like a menu of options, as opposed to a rigid program (the "Structured" really only refers to dividing up all of that information into easy-to-follow "Days".) To me the best part about the SEP was the writing exercises - which also allowed for the opportunity to try out different techniques. The Success Stories subforum also offers a treasure trove of information. I totally get how the diversity of modalities can be pretty overwhelming.
Yup.
Of course, sadly and even tragically, in spite of the huge diversity of experience and the many (perhaps infinitely) different paths to success that we have in our community, we will continue to see certain individuals (like the OP) who tell us "Yes, but.... I already tried everything you're suggesting, and I already know everything you're telling me and none of it has worked". They are suffering and they are desperate and they are still hoping to find the one thing that will work for them, but all they end up doing is invalidating the advice that is offered, over and over again, and ultimately rejecting the collective experience found here. I say "they" do this, but of course what we're really seeing is the power of some very resistant TMS brain mechanisms.
In fact, the SEP (Structured Educational Program) is pretty much designed to provide ideas and activities from a bunch of different resources. Definitely much more like a menu of options, as opposed to a rigid program (the "Structured" really only refers to dividing up all of that information into easy-to-follow "Days".) To me the best part about the SEP was the writing exercises - which also allowed for the opportunity to try out different techniques. The Success Stories subforum also offers a treasure trove of information. I totally get how the diversity of modalities can be pretty overwhelming.
Skylark7
New Member
This is a wonderful and helpful reply. Thank you!
Skylark7
New Member
Thanks so much for responding, @Booble !
Thanks. She's been in decline for over a decade now, but it's becoming extremely difficult for my stepfather to handle.
I understand better now. You're spot-on about all you've said, particularly about perfectionism, nostalgia for past themes, and the "moving" symptoms. (I tried to move my sensation to my foot as well, because that would be further away and easier to ignore! Didn't work, though.)[/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm recognizing many elements in many people's stories.
"Yes, but" is a thing in Recovery Inc. as well.
YES, BUT (sorry, LMAO): I have experienced and expressed anger. This last week, I screamed so much in my car I went hoarse! Anger IS hard for me to express, particularly with those I love; it's true. But over the past decade I've probably screamed, yelled, sworn, hit pillows etc. 5,000 times in my car or home alone, with zero effect on my symptoms. That's why I'm confused. That's why I must be doing something wrong.
Another thing I need clarification on. I'm having problems driving (narrowly missing collisions regularly), getting so flustered I can't make purchases or retain basic information, due to this distraction ... because everything feels like multitasking now. I've slowly stopped socializing almost completely, but it didn't start out that way. I socialized less and less over time because my symptoms became more and more overwhelming each time I did ... the OPPOSITE of what my "classic anxiety symptoms" used to do. Does that make sense?
Thanks. She's been in decline for over a decade now, but it's becoming extremely difficult for my stepfather to handle.
I understand better now. You're spot-on about all you've said, particularly about perfectionism, nostalgia for past themes, and the "moving" symptoms. (I tried to move my sensation to my foot as well, because that would be further away and easier to ignore! Didn't work, though.)[/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm recognizing many elements in many people's stories.
"Yes, but" is a thing in Recovery Inc. as well.
YES, BUT (sorry, LMAO): I have experienced and expressed anger. This last week, I screamed so much in my car I went hoarse! Anger IS hard for me to express, particularly with those I love; it's true. But over the past decade I've probably screamed, yelled, sworn, hit pillows etc. 5,000 times in my car or home alone, with zero effect on my symptoms. That's why I'm confused. That's why I must be doing something wrong.
Another thing I need clarification on. I'm having problems driving (narrowly missing collisions regularly), getting so flustered I can't make purchases or retain basic information, due to this distraction ... because everything feels like multitasking now. I've slowly stopped socializing almost completely, but it didn't start out that way. I socialized less and less over time because my symptoms became more and more overwhelming each time I did ... the OPPOSITE of what my "classic anxiety symptoms" used to do. Does that make sense?
Skylark7
New Member
Thanks for these! It's just overwhelming trying to find the best path.
Skylark7
New Member
This is wonderful and helpful. Many thanks.