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TMS Theories vs Practical Applications - Kitchen Sink Edition (retitled 6.19.24)

Diana-M said:
why did’nt they love me? Am I unlovable?
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It seems like it always boils down to this when you peel everything else away.
That is the inner gunk inside the inner seed inside the nut inside the pod inside the fruit on the tree.

If you think about it, even things like "Fear of Failure" -- that seem like fear of failure. And you could spend all this time trying to work on your fear of failure -- when really why are we afraid of failure? Because we will disappoint our (often already dead) parents and they won't love us.
 
Edit - I'm late to the greatly expanded conversation out here on the West Coast so I guess a lot of what I mostly wrote last night is redundant but I'm going to post anyway!

Booble said:
I have no idea was PRT is -
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Sorry, @Booble - I should probably be more cognizant of the fact that PRT is still relatively new, and that it's not mentioned much on the forum - this forum, that is, since it actually has its own forum. PRT is, in fact, this:
Skylark7 said:
Pain Reprocessing Therapy was developed by the Pain Psychology Center, which is run by Alan Gordon,
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There is an adjunct web site for PRT which Forest has been promoting (since sometime last year?) at the top of the main TMSWiki.org, at this link: "The New PRT Wiki and Forum". Alan's recent book, The Way Out is all about PRT. It's definitely worth reading to see what he's up to now (I got the audio version from my library after a six week wait) and I think there's a ton of validity in the basic premise, but for me it veers too far from the emotional component. The rest of the quote that @Skylark7 provided is more in line with my beliefs.

Note, @Skylark7, that PRT is quite new, and it is Alan's thing. It's definitely not Sarno (the neuroscience is much more recent) and tbh, I'm not sure where Dr Schubiner fits into the PRT discussion these days. His Unlearn Your Pain has been around a long time and is completely steeped in Sarno-style emotional discovery, so it's also very clearly not PRT. In fact, you already know this, because previously you essentially rejected Schubiner's method as too focused on emotions and past trauma - in spite of the fact that the specialist you consulted
Skylark7 said:
... was optimistic that I'd respond well to Dr Schubiner's method...
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. Which I guess did not happen..

@Skylark7, I guess you surely are quite confused - and also confusing if I'm being honest. I'm going to emphasize that your confusion undoubtedly goes back to what @Booble already saw some days ago when she told you to just STOP, for fuck's sake (except she was not so crude, of course - that's all me). You are trying so goddamn HARD, you are like a ticking time bomb of anxiety and effort. It's exhausting enough being marginally peripheral to this energy - I can't even begin to imagine how exhausted you must be. I wish I could help.

Perhaps give the new PRT forum a try, since that's their focus.
 
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tag24 said:
Different tools work for different people IMO. If you feel a strong pull to it, give some of its techniques a go (with an attitude of lightness, etc. Don't TMS about TMS!) and see how you find it. Everything in the space has its proponents and detractors, from journalling to meditation to deliberate challenging of symptoms... etc. What makes this very open, but also frustrating, is that there are many lenses to view it through and things to try!
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You see, and now we've taken something that Sarno meant to be easy and turned it into something confusing and difficult for people. And worse yet we've given the TMS brain all kinds of lovely excuses. I can see it rubbing its hands together with glee. "Aha! I can keep her distracted in this quagmire forever!"

With all kinds of things to try it feels like the old Sarno 20/20 video with Geraldo Rivera focusing on (traditional) TMS with Sarno, and his brother using all kinds of various contraptions.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
you are like a ticking time bomb of anxiety and effort. It's exhausting enough being marginally peripheral to this energy
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sadly, I have to agree with this, @Skylark7. I almost feel like you want to stay confused. People give you the same answer over and over. “This will take work.” And you come back with, “I’ve done work. Lots of work. Why isn’t it working?” And they answer,”cuz you still have more work.” It’s like a circular argument. The answer is: there is no answer. Just a journey. Just work. You’re on it. Keep going.

Booble said:
I kind of get a kick out of us having one of the most interesting discussions on a post titled Post Deleted!
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A riot! Irony not lost on me. :smuggrin:
 
Diana-M said:
I have so so many feelings of rage and frustration. It feels bottomless. My parents were cruel. And that’s even more rage. And there you have it: and that’s only 3 whys. Two more might be- why did’nt they love me? Am I unlovable? These are and were Unbearable feelings. So I avoid them. My body holds them for me. And now at this sweet age of 65, I am struggling to walk under the load. That also makes me mad. Yet I’m mostly intellectually mad. I can’t feel it. Right now writing this, I feel nothing. THIS is where my work lies. I deleted the games off my phone.
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You are doing great work. It's painful to uncover all these emotions. That's why we repressed them for so long, to avoid the pain of feeling them, so as children we could survive. I just reminded another Forum member that Sarno wrote about the rage-soothe ratio. It's important to have activities that soothe you while doing this work to balance out all the rage and pain. It's difficult now, but you will get to the other side. It's worth it.
 
Diana-M said:
I almost feel like you want to stay confused.
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Classic example of the TMS distraction mechanism, 100% in control and working as designed when homo sapiens emerged millenia ago. Now heavily influenced by the age of technology and TMI, but it's still the same old thing because it hasn't had time to evolve.
 
Skylark7 said:
Same. And then what?
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Then I have a new point of reference, I can drop all of the noise and Bullshit that doesn't work, like meditating, reading heady spiritual things, self examination via biofeedback and other things to 'reduce tension' etc...In fact, all of that crap was being preached in the chronic pain clinic into which I was tossed when I wasn't getting better.

The Joy of discovering something doesn't work is ; You No longer have to waste time trying that anymore.

Just like the REAL AA is practiced by very few people , and 'The Sermon on the mount' is practiced by very few christians, very few people are desperate enough to get to the core of the RAGE and anguish that makes TMS go away...I see new crap here all the time and I am glad for people if it is helping, but one of the fundamental truths I know about myself is that 'Shit doesn't work for me'..... OH, shit works all of the time, I just have an inherent tendency to be 'glass is empty' so anything that requires a sustained positive attitude will usually melt in my hands.

RAGE on the other hand... I can get into that. I have a talent for it and it finally had a good place to be used... I just needed enough honesty to go to the real places (close...close...CLOSER STILL) and let that feeling exist...and most people won't. I have seen so many people with TMS who 'get it' that won't face up to the horrible marriage, parent, child...career choice. They tend to over complicate this, probably hoping for an 'out'.

For the first time in my life, I was glad I had such a terrible experience...it wasn't even possible t hide it behind distractions... I can't afford any!

Most of us have to lose everything before we will open up...in the case of TMS, it is the loss of our own solution factory.
 
Baseball65 said:
Then I have a new point of reference, I can drop all of the noise and Bullshit that doesn't work, like meditating, reading heady spiritual things, self examination via biofeedback and other things to 'reduce tension' etc...In fact, all of that crap was being preached in the chronic pain clinic into which I was tossed when I wasn't getting better.

The Joy of discovering something doesn't work is ; You No longer have to waste time trying that anymore.

Just like the REAL AA is practiced by very few people , and 'The Sermon on the mount' is practiced by very few christians, very few people are desperate enough to get to the core of the RAGE and anguish that makes TMS go away...I see new crap here all the time and I am glad for people if it is helping, but one of the fundamental truths I know about myself is that 'Shit doesn't work for me'..... OH, shit works all of the time, I just have an inherent tendency to be 'glass is empty' so anything that requires a sustained positive attitude will usually melt in my hands.

RAGE on the other hand... I can get into that. I have a talent for it and it finally had a good place to be used... I just needed enough honesty to go to the real places (close...close...CLOSER STILL) and let that feeling exist...and most people won't. I have seen so many people with TMS who 'get it' that won't face up to the horrible marriage, parent, child...career choice. They tend to over complicate this, probably hoping for an 'out'.

For the first time in my life, I was glad I had such a terrible experience...it wasn't even possible t hide it behind distractions... I can't afford any!

Most of us have to lose everything before we will open up...in the case of TMS, it is the loss of our own solution factory.
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Thanks for your comments!
 
Baseball65 said:
I have seen so many people with TMS who 'get it' that won't face up to the horrible marriage, parent, child...career choice. They tend to over complicate this, probably hoping for an 'out'.
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This! Right here. This is such a scary truth. Like how do you wake up one day and realize your sister is killing you? She has to literally be extracted from your life. And your kids are killing you. Your marriage is good but also very bad for you. And so many other things. I mean, it’s lose everything. Whether you actually go “no contact” or not. The loss is still there in your heart, and the reality is super hard to face and comes on slowly. It’s a mess.

I joined Al-anon a year ago per my therapist’s advise. It was after I finally admitted to her that I thought my husband and my youngest son are alcoholics. This opened up a huge can of worms, because both of my parents were also. I am an adult child of alcoholics, with all the traits and damage. Turns out most people in Al-anon are just like me. Mopping up a really big mess and learning to be honest about it. Finally. Rage is a necessary and inevitable byproduct..

All of your comments add up over time for me, Baseball. And I love your brutal honesty. I’m starting to see where you’re going with this. I wish I had a “talent” for rage. But I’m determined to learn it.
 
Baseball65 said:
That PRT reminds me of 'outcome independence' . I read that whole thing here on the forum and it has never worked for me.
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I can't believe I've taken on the role of Alan Gordon defender on this thread. I gave him lots of sh*# back when he used to post on the Forum years ago. ;) Life is strange, but here goes...

I just received a PM from a woman thanking me for a post I made years ago stating how the concept of outcome independence helped me recover from chronic insomnia. I had forgotten about it tbh. But I suffered a long time with insomnia until I realized that my fear of not sleeping was making it impossible for me to sleep. To overcome it I had to convince myself that I'd be fine whether I slept or not. It wasn't easy, but I got there. And apparently it worked for the woman who PM'd me.

I never found the concept helpful in my recovery of fibromyalgia or migraines, though. Maybe because I'd had those symptoms so long, I didn't fear them. Maybe it's only helpful if fear is a factor, which is the basis of his approach. The Sarno approach worked for me with those symptoms.

I understand why people get frustrated that there are so many techniques, theories, and approaches for TMS out there. I shared that frustration. I remember wishing someone would just tell me exactly what to do it and why. But I think it is good to have a range of tools available, as some work for some people and not for others. And in my case some worked for one kind of TMS, and not another.
 
Baseball65 said:
RAGE on the other hand... I can get into that. I have a talent for it and it finally had a good place to be used... I just needed enough honesty to go to the real places (close...close...CLOSER STILL) and let that feeling exist...and most people won't. I have seen so many people with TMS who 'get it' that won't face up to the horrible marriage, parent, child...career choice. They tend to over complicate this, probably hoping for an 'out'.
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Can we talk about rage a little more? I've got a talent for it too, and I also have some mixed feelings about it. When I'm raging, it feels both terrible and good. Terrible because I'm out of control, and manifesting my dis-ease -- sort of displaying to the world that there's something very wrong with me. But there's also something that feels right about it, because it's clearly getting at some deep and important emotions. I always hated it when people gave me the message that I should be less angry. I always felt like saying: I'm just actually expressing what you feel but don't even have the courage to acknowledge to yourself is inside of you.

Still, I know that when I'm raging, it's not good. It really isn't good. In some ways, I'm just digging myself deeper into my holes when I rage. When I feel good about myself, I have no need to rage. Even the most egregious tailgater will not enrage me. He's a fly I flick off, nothing more. When I'm raging, I know I'm ultimately raging at myself. The person I'm hating is me. So the basic solution seems to be . . . stop hating myself.
 
TMUlrich said:
Can we talk about rage a little more? I've got a talent for it too, and I also have some mixed feelings about it. When I'm raging, it feels both terrible and good. Terrible because I'm out of control, and manifesting my dis-ease -- sort of displaying to the world that there's something very wrong with me. But there's also something that feels right about it, because it's clearly getting at some deep and important emotions. I always hated it when people gave me the message that I should be less angry. I always felt like saying: I'm just actually expressing what you feel but don't even have the courage to acknowledge to yourself is inside of you.

Still, I know that when I'm raging, it's not good. It really isn't good. In some ways, I'm just digging myself deeper into my holes when I rage. When I feel good about myself, I have no need to rage. Even the most egregious tailgater will not enrage me. He's a fly I flick off, nothing more. When I'm raging, I know I'm ultimately raging at myself. The person I'm hating is me. So the basic solution seems to be . . . stop hating myself.
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There's that clip where Alan is talking to a guy who is annoyed by his infant daughter. Alan takes him through a meditation in which he basically imagines crushing his mother's skull. How do people feel about that? I thought it was pretty devastating.
 
TMUlrich said:
Alan takes him through a meditation in which he basically imagines crushing his mother's skull. How do people feel about that?
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I think it's awesome...I didn't catch that one. I have a new found respect for the man... He needs to do more of those....all of us have papered over our darker thoughts with 'niceness' and it's literally killing us.

sent you a PM
 
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