tms coupled with other therapy modalities?

[dree]

so... i know that dr Sarno emphasized how we must think psychological. but my question is if by approaching pain as Tms it would mean to abandon other modalities of therapy like detoxing, chiro, stretches, etc... isnt it ok to work with these in parallel? work on emotional issues but also working on the physical body? i have pain all over and things like massage help alot to relieve pain.

 

[Huckleberry]

I think when you say massage helps to relieve the pain then that is fine. I think that the issue which conflicts with the accepted TMS recovery protocol is when you have a procedure that somehow attempts to correct or fix you physically...chiro and osteos being the obvious ones here. If as was surmised that the pain from TMS is caused by oxygen deprivation to muscle and nerves then it seems logical that massage and hot baths etc will give you a temporary relief as these encourage blood/oxygen flow but you need to be aware that this is only a pain relief and temporary measure as the psychosomatic causality of the pain will still be remaining.

 

[pspa]

Personal experience -- chiro is quackery, detox is quackery, massage fine, stretching good, all exercise good.

 

[Andy Bayliss]

Hi dree,
The strategy recommended by most is to wean yourself off of any kind of physical approach to your symptoms. The more you feel the massage is a valid "treatment," the less you will believe that TMS is the cause. The only way to get around this is to know that when you are stretching or getting massage it is for reasons that have nothing to do with symptom relief. (With Huckleberry's strategy also possible, but tricky in my opinion.) Stretch because it feels good. Massage because it feels good. This is tricky ground, and I suggest you avoid these things until you begin to get real results using Dr. Sarno's approach.

It is hard to ride two horses at once and stay in the saddle!
Andy B

 

[Tennis Tom]

isnt it ok to work with these in parallel?

Bluntly put : NO! Dr. Sarno abandoned sending his patients to re-hab early on, although he liked many of his PT's personally. It is incongruent, counter productive and will slow down or prevent TMS healing to have in one's mindset that physical therapies will be the "cure" when the source of the pain is in the brain. Been there, done that with thousands of $$$'s spent on hundreds of accu, chiro, rolfing and complementary mudicine, sessions and mudalities. Your mind-set is the key. I do have an ocassional massage for a treat like having an ice-cream cone for some pampering and relaxation but NOT to fix anything. If progress is slow, spend your money on a TMS therapist or a vacation to a TMS physician to gain confidence in the TMS diagnosis. Donald Dubin, (deceased) was a psychotherapist for Dr. Schechter and I saw him for a few sessions in person and a few by phone. He told be the most sessions he ever had to do to get the TMS message across was a dozen. Keep reading the books and reviewing the AV materials that you can access here until the TMS KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN sinks into your sub-C.

 

[ezer]

If progress is slow, spend your money on a TMS therapist or a vacation to a TMS physician to gain confidence in the TMS diagnosis. Donald Dubin, (deceased) was a psychotherapist for Dr. Schechter and I saw him for a few sessions in person and a few by phone. He told be the most sessions he ever had to do to get the TMS message across was a dozen. Keep reading the books and reviewing the AV materials that you can access here until the TMS KNOWLEDGE PENICILLIN sinks into your sub-C.

Tennis Tom, 10 years ago, I did it all by the book. I read and reread Sarno's HBP and MBP. I watched Sarno's DVD every day. I did worksheets. I went to a TMS doctor, Dr. Schechter. I had 24 sessions of TMS psychotherapy with Don Dubin.

I did that for 2 years and I was still in agony.

 

[RichieRich]

Tennis Tom, 10 years ago, I did it all by the book. I read and reread Sarno's HBP and MBP. I watched Sarno's DVD every day. I did worksheets. I went to a TMS doctor, Dr. Schechter. I had 24 sessions of TMS psychotherapy with Don Dubin.

I did that for 2 years and I was still in agony.

Ezer...if you did that for 2 years, 10 years ago, what did you do for the 8 years after if I may ask?

 

[ezer]

Ezer...if you did that for 2 years, 10 years ago, what did you do for the 8 years after if I may ask?

After the failure of addressing my symptoms as TMS, I looked once again for a physical explanation. I had 2 consecutive surgeries that were a disaster. I was bedridden for a while. But then 2 years after surgery, I had a strange incident where the pain took a 24 hour break. That got me again intrigued by psychosomatic medicine.

I then discovered Peter Levine, Robert Scaer, and what some of the coaches teach. In short what clicked with me was what Monte Hueftle posed on his website about how to deal and neutralize your toxic and repressed emotions. I have been pain free for close to 3 years now.

 

[Huckleberry]

After the failure of addressing my symptoms as TMS, I looked once again for a physical explanation. I had 2 consecutive surgeries that were a disaster. I was bedridden for a while. But then 2 years after surgery, I had a strange incident where the pain took a 24 hour break. That got me again intrigued by psychosomatic medicine.

I then discovered Peter Levine, Robert Scaer, and what some of the coaches teach. In short what clicked with me was what Monte Hueftle posed on his website about how to deal and neutralize your toxic and repressed emotions. I have been pain free for close to 3 years now.

I do like Monte's take on TMS but did actually think it was nothing about repressed emotions. Did I get this wrong?

 

[pspa]

This is from one of Monte's updates, in answer to the above question.


If I believe the TMS diagnosis and I am still in pain, does this mean I have deeply repressed emotions that are causing my chronic symptoms?

Absolutely not! This is one of the biggest un-truths of the TMS diagnosis and treatment programs being distributed by the TMS community. And one that I will continue to rage against until the TMS community (Dr./counselor/psychologist) wakes up and begins to address the real cause. The continued emphasis on deeply repressed emotions by the TMS community demonstrates both ignorance and a lack of credibility in actual experience of living with TMS or in working with people who are experienced in living with TMS.

AND THIS.


Are repressed emotions part of the TMS syndrome?

Yes, of course, repressed emotional energy is one of the main ingredients causing inner tension in TMS! However, there are two big, huge factors that must be understood.

1. It is our day-to-day patterns of behavior and thought that are generating Inner Tension and

2. It is our day-to-day patterns of behavior and thought that are repressing our emotions (emotional energy).

This is day-to-day, moment-to-moment repression of day-to-day, moment-to-moment feelings/emotions and not this big huge and in many cases fictitious deeply repressed emotions from your childhood. What makes this day-to-day repression such a big, huge contributor of the inner tension in TMS is that it is Chronic. A TMS person has been chronically generating inner tension and chronically repressing emotional energy for 10-20-30-40 years. When you start changing or affecting how you are generating inner tension and repressing emotions right now, in the present, you can begin to reverse this cause/effect - mind/body syndrome right now, in the present.

 

[Huckleberry]

Interesting.

I did actually just read ezer's recovery post and this now makes sense I think. I may have got this wrong but I'm thinking what he is saying that he got from Monte was the understanding that it is important to actually feel the physical/bodily energy that emotions give us rather than getting stuck at the cognition stage where we sort of think/know we should be feeling an emotion but sort of just discard that moment and move along without fully processing it.

This is quite interesting to me as I've always been the sort of person who thinks they can feel empathy and the like but in reality the only true emotion I seem to actually feel is anger. I also seem to constantly turn every emotion into anger....if I'm starting to feel fearful, sad, vulnerable or whatever I just seem to turn the situation around so it generates anger and I then seem to be comfortable with this emotion. It is strange.

edit: I think the lyrics to this song sort of sums it up better than I can explain it.
also apologies if this thread has been derailed somewhat.

 

[Ellen]

Are repressed emotions part of the TMS syndrome?

Yes, of course, repressed emotional energy is one of the main ingredients causing inner tension in TMS! However, there are two big, huge factors that must be understood.

1. It is our day-to-day patterns of behavior and thought that are generating Inner Tension and

2. It is our day-to-day patterns of behavior and thought that are repressing our emotions (emotional energy).

This is day-to-day, moment-to-moment repression of day-to-day, moment-to-moment feelings/emotions and not this big huge and in many cases fictitious deeply repressed emotions from your childhood. What makes this day-to-day repression such a big, huge contributor of the inner tension in TMS is that it is Chronic. A TMS person has been chronically generating inner tension and chronically repressing emotional energy for 10-20-30-40 years. When you start changing or affecting how you are generating inner tension and repressing emotions right now, in the present, you can begin to reverse this cause/effect - mind/body syndrome right now, in the present.

I think he is clarifying this in an important way. People get very tripped up by the concept of repressed emotions. Our repressing of emotions may start in childhood, but it is the fact we are doing it now that is important. It becomes a way of life.

 

[Huckleberry]

Yeah I agree Ellen. I was thinking over the concept of conditioned responses earlier and came to the conclusion that basically my whole life has become a conditioned response...like you say when you spend years and years thinking and acting in a pre programmed and almost automatic way to reverse this is very hard.

 

[pspa]

I think he is clarifying this in an important way. People get very tripped up by the concept of repressed emotions. Our repressing of emotions may start in childhood, but it is the fact we are doing it now that is important. It becomes a way of life.

In fairness to people who get tripped up, the writing and teaching in this area can be very confusing, and not necessarily consistent.

 

[Ellen]

In fairness to people who get tripped up, the writing and teaching in this area can be very confusing, and not necessarily consistent.

I agree, and I know some of the advice I've given people on this Forum over the years about this topic has been confusing and inconsistent. It has taken me awhile to become clear about this. One of the factors that has made it hard for me to advise others based on my personal experience with TMS recovery, is that I tried many approaches at once. Thus, it's hard to know specifically which approach actually worked. That's why we need more quality TMS research studies.

Sorry for changing the topic of this thread somewhat.

 

[Tennis Tom]

http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/dr-sarnos-12-daily-reminders.4519/ (DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS)

 

[ezer]

pspa, huckleberry, and Ellen, I wholeheartedly agree with what you posted.

In summary you have to

(1) catch yourself going into negative thoughts patterns and stop them
(2) feel your feelings or emotions ("feel" is key as opposed to "think". You feel a body sensation. Thinking is to be banned).

Below is what helped me the most. I underlined the key points.

Learning how to process emotions (past and present) in a healthy way is the crux of effective Mind Body Healing. Things like yoga, relaxation, and meditation can help, but they will usually not be effective long term on their own – unless they are combined with skills that help you to feel and process your emotions.
Lorraine Faenhdrich, pelvic pain - mind-body coach

EMOTION: THE BODY'S REACTION TO YOUR MIND

Mind, in the way I use the word, is not just thought. It includes your emotions as well as all unconscious mental-emotional reactive patterns. Emotion arises at the place where mind and body meet. It is the body's reaction to your mind — or you might say a reflection of your mind in the body.

The more you are identified with your thinking, your likes and dislikes, judgments and interpretations, which is to say the less present you are as the watching consciousness, the stronger the emotional energy charge will be, whether you are aware of it or not. If you cannot feel your emotions, if you are cut off from them, you will eventually experience them on a purely physical level, as a physical problem or symptom.

IF YOU HAVE DIFFICULTY FEELING YOUR EMOTIONS, start by focusing attention on the inner energy field of your body. Feel the body from within. This will also put you in touch with your emotions. If you really want to know your mind, the body will always give you a truthful reflection, so look at the emotion, or rather feel it in your body. If there is an apparent conflict between them, the thought will be the lie, the emotion will be the truth. Not the ultimate truth of who you are, but the relative truth of your state of mind at that time.

You may not yet be able to bring your unconscious mind activity into awareness as thoughts, but it will always be reflected in the body as an emotion, and of this you can become aware.

While a thought is in your head, an emotion has a strong physical component and so is primarily felt in the body. You can then allow the emotion to be there without being controlled by
it. You no longer are the emotion; you are the watcher, the observing presence.

September, 2001 Eckhart Tolle (Practicing the Power of Now)

Remember that our thought and behavior patterns are doing two things:

1. Generating inner tension
2. Repressing or helping us deny/avoid our emotions.

Sometimes we simply need to change or redirect out of our tension generating patterns/repressing activity via the practice of Think Clean and sometimes we need to experience or be with our feelings with no thinking involved first and then redirect into the present moment or into more open, flexible or balanced patterns.
Monte Hueftle

 

[Pia]

so... i know that dr Sarno emphasized how we must think psychological. but my question is if by approaching pain as Tms it would mean to abandon other modalities of therapy like detoxing, chiro, stretches, etc... isnt it ok to work with these in parallel? work on emotional issues but also working on the physical body? i have pain all over and things like massage help alot to relieve pain.

Personally, I still get massage and gentle joint mobilization (I have a genetic connective tissue disorder - and that causes injuries) and I will do so for a long period ahead. I have areas in my body where blood circulation has been "out of order" for up to 40 years, tendons have been over stretched my whole life, various old injuries have left areas almost dead and the massage/mobilization helps the blood circulation go back to normal. This helps a lot! I understand the approach of stopping all kinds of physical intervention, but for me that would be a disaster. I would be bedridden and in my wheel chair again... I prefer to go slowly, letting my nervous system learn that what I'm doing here is good, it works, and adjust as we go along. I thought I would never ever be able to live without the treatment, but lately I have been thinking that I won't need that for more than perhaps another one year or so. After that only when new real injuries arise.
I'm aware that this is not what is "accepted" generally in here, but we are all different. I'm able to walk now a few years after spending 2-3 years in a wheel chair, and there is no way that I will go back. The process of coming out of the wheel chair was cooperating with my body, baby steps (literally...), massage to prevent new injuiries especially in my hips and lower back - and I've even stopped using lumbar belt except when I hoover or do the garden (both of which I was completely unable to do for 10 years). This approach has saved me in the first place and will be part of my journey ahead.
I have been working with TMS for a good month or two and I find this TMS wiki absolutely fantastic! Yes, I'm a TMS'er - and I have a physical issue too which needs to be attended to as well. I need to be able to distinguish what is TMS and what is Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and act accordingly - neglecting the latter will not get me anywhere but back in the wheel chair!

 

[Tennis Tom]

I then discovered Peter Levine, Robert Scaer, and what some of the coaches teach. In short what clicked with me was what Monte Hueftle posed on his website about how to deal and neutralize your toxic and repressed emotions. I have been pain free for close to 3 years now.

I see NO difference nor conflict between what Monte says and what Dr. Sarno has said for years. I bought his book years ago--after learning about it at the TMS Help forum. He's a devotee of Dr. Sarno, I assume that's where he found out about TMS initially, he gives him a special thank-you on the first page of his book. Monte is a running coach, his approach will be from a sports injury perspective--He says that his "First mistress is marathon running." He'll probably take you out for a 5k on your first treatment session, in order to get you reconditioned to using your body. That's going to be a different approach then someone wh0 has been in a wheel-chair for years needs. You can keep buying and piling-up self-help books, searching for THE ONE that resonates with your temperament and psyche. And if you're planning on writing one, it's probably a good idea to see what's already been said and how. But, if you just want to get your life back, and have the pain fade, and not keep getting new symptom substitutions, all you need is anyone of Dr. Sarno's books--the theory is exceedingly easy to articulate--if maybe a little more difficult to put into practice, depending on one's personal test-tube chemistry of a life. Why reinvent the wheel?--bookshelf space is getting to be scarce real estate.

 

[ezer]

I see NO difference nor conflict between what Monte says and what Dr. Sarno has said for years. I bought his book years ago--after learning about it at the TMS Help forum. He's a devotee of Dr. Sarno, I assume that's where he found out about TMS initially, he gives him a special thank-you on the first page of his book. Monte is a running coach, his approach will be from a sports injury perspective--He says that his "First mistress is marathon running." He'll probably take you out for a 5k on your first treatment session, in order to get you reconditioned to using your body. That's going to be a different approach then someone wh0 has been in a wheel-chair for years needs. You can keep buying and piling-up self-help books, searching for THE ONE that resonates with your temperament and psyche. And if you're planning on writing one, it's probably a good idea to see what's already been said and how. But, if you just want to get your life back, and have the pain fade, and not keep getting new symptom substitutions, all you need is anyone of Dr. Sarno's books--the theory is exceedingly easy to articulate--if maybe a little more difficult to put into practice, depending on one's personal test-tube chemistry of a life. Why reinvent the wheel?--bookshelf space is getting to be scarce real estate.

TT, I am not sure why you feel the need to argue with what I posted. I am also a Sarno devotee. All I am saying is that Sarno's cognitive method that you promote post after post is not enough in most cases to heal even with the help of a TMS psychologist and a TMS doctor.

Monte Hueftle, Lorraine Friedrich, or Abigail Steidley all struggled with Sarno's orthodoxy. Monte relapsed after being successful with Sarno the 1st time around. He then discovered Buddhism, Eckhart etc.

Abigail and Lorraine did not heal with Sarno's cognitive "only" method aka as "knowledge penicillin".
It is by attending to their emotions and modifying their day to day thoughts process that they healed.

all you need is anyone of Dr. Sarno's books

Simply not true TT.
Once again: What is someone supposed to do when Sarno's "knowledge penicillin" fails? You cannot continue to do the same and expect a different outcome.