Struggling with knee pain and swelling being TMS

[ragis45]

I'll be brief with my background.
I first was examined by Dr. Sarno back in the late 70's for serious back pain. I was in my early 20's at the time and was told I would need surgery to repair a degenerated disc (sounds funny now as to how someone in their 20's could have that bad of a case of degeneration). In any event, the pain eventually disappeared and I have been an advocate/disciple ever since. With that said, I have had a long and storied history with TMS equivalents; IBS, restless leg, various skin issues, prostatitis, allergies, bilateral knee pain, insomnia etc. I have unfortunately dealt with anxiety, panic and would consider myself mildly depressive. I have been in therapy and deal with childhood trauma, anger and esteem issues.
Currently I am struggling with left knee pain and swelling. I had the knee scoped years ago for meniscus damage and it hasn't been the same since. Until recently though it was not a physical hinderance as I am very athletic. This past year it has become a problem as the stiffness, swelling and pain are preventing me from doing the things I enjoy.
It was diagnosed as mild degenerative athritis.
I am well along the way to treating this as another TMS equivalent. I have read a lot of research which implicates muscle issues as the real cause of pain in arthritis. And obviously from there one moves away from structural issues to muscular involvemnt and subsequently TMS.
Sarno has said that in many cases the diagnosis of arthitis is incorrect and that it is really TMS at work. The one problem I have with this is, if arthritis pain/swelling can be addressed as TMS, then why do dogs get arthritis? Are they suppressing rage like us humans? Are they being misdiagnosed? Is it really arthritis they have when they get older and limp around? How do you make the distinction between pain from muscle involvement and pain the result of a true structural issue?
Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[Ollin]

Hi Ragis45.

You're asking a lot of interesting questions. Not being a TMS specialist I can only guess that true arthritis resulting from joint degeneration (structural problem) as an inflammation would produce some level of pain. While some believe that inflammation is a sign of a structural problem and cannot be TMS, others claim that even cancer can have emotional basis. But TMS can surely exacerbate the pain level one would feel from structural problems (Dr Sarno quotes stats that most spinal degeneration cases are asymptomatic).
Do dogs get arthritis? Sure. All animals that live beyond their reproductive age are subject to some degeneration. The question is to what extent these structural changes should limit their capabilities, i.e. is the fear of being somewhat disadvantaged (TMS) making them feel more pain than the actual joint damage. Do dogs suppress rage? Yes! All animals subject to social order rules and responsibilities are bound to repress their feelings in order to be accepted/approved of by other dogs or their human owners.

I think TMS is not unique to us humans, but I wonder if any pet owners here had experiences with medically unexplained symptoms in their companions?

 

[ragis45]

Ollin,

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. I realize that the issue of osteoarthritis is a complex one. I am struck, though, by the numerous studies that have been done that find uneven correlation between structural abnormalities as demonstrated in x-rays and pain; significantly as relates to the knee.
As a TMS disciple, and one who has seen the Sarno method work first hand, I am convinced that TMS or the mind of the individual plays into pain of arthritis. I am also convinced that for most arthritic conditions the real pain and dis-ease is in the muscles, ligaments and tendons surrounding the abnormal joint. This also points towards a TMS syndrome. The question I have is when does a structual issue in and of itself cause pain? Do most people who complain of arthritic pain/swelling not have the type and extent of structural issues that should cause pain? Are most people 'trained' to associate pain/swelling with the diagnosis of arthritis and then be default are captured in the pain syndrome? I wonder what would happen if, like back pain, it became more acceptable to think of arthritic pain as not structural, but muscular and brought on by stress, tension, anger, repressed rage etc.
This is all like an onion in the more you peel back the more questions arise.

PS Interestingly, personally I can relate a very difficult emotional time to the onset of my current knee pain and swelling. And the pieces of the puzzle continue to fit in.....

 

[Anna832]

Hey! I was wondering how you got on with this? I have chronic knee swelling with NO physical explanation and it’s driving me insane. Thankfully I have no pain, just massive swelling, so it seems confusing as most people get pain.

 

[Baseball65]

Hey! I was wondering how you got on with this? I have chronic knee swelling with NO physical explanation and it’s driving me insane. Thankfully I have no pain, just massive swelling, so it seems confusing as most people get pain.

Wow..this is an old thread.
@Anna832 I absolutely had swelling and knee pain and it was absolutely TMS. It was when I was lonely and depressed as I went through my divorce in my 40's. It hung around a little longer because I didn't recognize it as TMS because it LOOKED so real. It lasted a few months. When I finally was certain it was TMS, I just ignored it and went about my business which includes baseball and lifting weights and heavy labor.
For all I know it might still be swollen. I only cared about the pain.
I've recently had a similar issue in my hands. They look Horrible. It's harder to ignore them because they are in front of my face, but they only hurt when I pay attention to them.
I have a bunch of fears....being alone, being useless, not being able to play guitar, being able to take care of myself.
anytime I have a twinge, I forcefully turn my mind to those fears, and I don't notice any symptoms for days and days..
...and the Big giveaway that it is TMS? It only bugs me when I have time to pay attention to it.

 

[clarinetpath]

Hi folks this is really interesting. Baseball is the master of TMS symptom of elimination, so I would go with what he says.

I also wonder about dogs and the health of other mammals. They are a lot of like us, with emotions and perhaps some level of consciousness of their own. Maybe they have TMS for similar reasons. On the other hand, maybe we have more power over it, with a higher level of consciousness. Who knows.

My mom, who is basically an emotional black hole and a nag that I had to cut out of my life, has had dogs all her life. Her dogs typically die of some terrible kind of "highly malignant tumor" as we used to like to say in pathology circles of very aggressive cancers. I don't think that was a coincidence.

Also about arthritis, even though that name means joint inflammation, inflammation is usually not very prominent. There are infrequent cases that do have a lot of inflammatory cells. But mostly they have a lot of fluid, degenerated cartilage and bone fragments, with relatively sparse inflammatory cells.

 

[ragis45]

Anna,

Interesting to see what I wrote back in 2013, now 12 years ago. The good news is that my knee is fine these days. No more swelling and no pain. I'd like to say that I am cured, but as you know if you read up on TMS, my knee swelling/pain disappeared, but due to the 'symptom imperative' it has been replaced by other TMS issues (ex. IBS, eczema, heart palpitations, neck and shoulder pain etc. etc.)
I am a T type individual and I realize that I will be dealing with these issues and chasing them around probably as long as I am alive (unless I do intensive psychotherapy.).
With that said, though, swelling can definitely be a symptom of TMS, especially if imaging of your knee shows little deterioration. I had very little deterioration, just mainly a frayed meniscus (which by the way, I believe most times causes TMS symptoms as TMS seems to always attack areas that are vulnerable)
Believe in the TMS diagnosis and be patient. It will pass with time.
Good luck

 

[Anna832]

Thank you all for your replies!

it is hard when the symptoms seem so real as you say Baseball, my swelling is giant, probably the size of an actual baseball but I can’t argue with the test and imaging results and the multitude of physicians who have not been able to give me a “logical” answer.

I managed to find someone local who does similar work and is now helping me to rewrite my neural pathway for this response. It was two and a half years prior to coming back on this year after a year and a half off so I guess it’s a pretty solid pathway but I am a determined person so I’m sure I’ll be able to sort it!

Ragis, I’m glad your knee swelling went away! Sorry to hear about the other symptoms tho, I hope you are able to catch onto the TMS faster each time and get some relief. I find it so frustrating always having something to fix rather than just living life
I know the solution to that would be just to live life but when it’s so disabling I really struggle to ignore it and it physically stops me doing most things I love because they all require at least some sort of mobility / range of motion of my legs!

Clarinetpath, that is so interesting about the dogs! I havent read the book but have heard the statement “your dog is your mirror” and it’s actually wild that my dog has reflected similar issues to mine, right now she has an issue with her leg so she can’t walk straight either - we are a right mess lol.
I got diagnosed with inflammatory arthritis when I was 22 (TMS for sure looking back it was so obvious but I wasn’t ready to accept it), and my dog also got diagnosed with arthritis and she was only 6!! Cured hers with a change of food and she’s been perfect up til now at the ripe old age of 17.

Such interesting stuff, very frustrating for someone with no patience (I.e me)!