hi all. I’m not new to this forum but I’ve been away for awhile because my back pain went away. Until about 2 weeks ago when I slipped on ice and fell hard on my butt. At the time my si joints hurt a bit but I still managed to work a 13 hr day and unload some heavy equipment. However since this happened at work I had to get checked out and so I had X-rays, a normal back exam. But the X-rays showed a slight spondylolisthesis at L3 -L4. I don’t recall having that on previous X-rays. Well now I’m battling the old back pain again with it creeping up into my right thoracic area. This is my old pattern. My low back and si joint hurts now too. My question is could this all be tms or did I really hurt myself on the fall. Did it cause the spondylolisthesis? And is that causing my pain?
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Spondylolisthesis ?
- Thread starter Mtngal
- Start date
Lainey
Well known member
Hi Mtngal
I too have spondylothesis, not slight, but significant. Dr. Sarno and others have emphasized that spondy does not create pain. Over the years I actually have had very little pain in the site of the L4/5 discs. I have had a bit of numbness in the toe area of my left foot, and I did have severe sciatica. Working on my journalling and getting in touch with the anger and traumas from my past alleviated the sciatica pain. I believe that the pain from spondy IS TMS. So much of what may appear to be an injury does not really cause pain. TMS is the culprit irregardless of what the x-rays show. I cannot address your issue with unloading equipment and the long days. Maybe there is an underlying issue of anger about the workload??
Let us know how it goes.
Lainey
I too have spondylothesis, not slight, but significant. Dr. Sarno and others have emphasized that spondy does not create pain. Over the years I actually have had very little pain in the site of the L4/5 discs. I have had a bit of numbness in the toe area of my left foot, and I did have severe sciatica. Working on my journalling and getting in touch with the anger and traumas from my past alleviated the sciatica pain. I believe that the pain from spondy IS TMS. So much of what may appear to be an injury does not really cause pain. TMS is the culprit irregardless of what the x-rays show. I cannot address your issue with unloading equipment and the long days. Maybe there is an underlying issue of anger about the workload??
Let us know how it goes.
Lainey
BruceMC
Beloved Grand Eagle
I notice in all of the descriptions of spondylolisthesis I've read on the web that spondy can have symptoms or not have symptoms depending on the individual. That's vague enough, right? Sounds like your leg may hurt or go numb depending on whether your mind elects to have you feel those symptoms or not. Therefore, probably TMS, no?
Lainey
Well known member
Yes BruceMC, I totally agree. It's an easy target for our mind to attend to when attempting to distract us from other issues.
Lainey
Thank you Lainey and Bruce for your insights. You’re spot on about the anger with my job. I at times travel out of town with a doc to rural clinics. That morning the doc expected me to clear off a foot of snow from the vehicle and load 4 heavy pieces of equipment. At 6 in the morning I was doing this. Then keys fell out of pocket in snow. Couldn’t find them. Had to clear off OTHER vehicle of snow and reload equipment from first vehicle. That’s when I slipped on ice and fell. Then I had to drive and pick up the doc. To say I was mad was an understatement. I know sarno says spondylolisthesis doesn’t cause pain but the web information is conflicting, as Bruce says. I have started journaling and will keep it up and also start looking inward for some answers. It’s so cool that journaling got rid of your sciatica. Amazing.
Lainey
Well known member
Journaling and processing the emotions that the writings brought up was the key for me. I was not easy to live with but my spouse was supportive and tried to be there for me if I needed an ear. I often did not need an ear, but was able to process the issues within on my own. However, it took over two months. I was in terrible pain, had to stop making pots (a hobby I enjoy) on a wheel (could not sit on a stool, or stand for long) and was in great agony. I wrote every day. Lots of emotional outpouring. Not a pretty sight. Went to bed one evening, woke up the next morning with sciatic pain GONE. Lingering, with very light soreness, but really not bad for about another two weeks. Then, it was completely gone!
Good luck on your journey. Keep us informed.
Lainey
Well my pain is getting worse with tingling in outside of left foot and intermittent pain in left calf. My fear is that I really did herniate a disk but if so, why wasn’t the pain bad when I first did it? I’m trying to embrace TMS but it’s hard when you are in so much pain.
BruceMC
Beloved Grand Eagle
I've heard of another condition similar to spondy where the facet of one vertebrae has advanced out of line with the rest of the back. It's congenital. That is, you're born with it. I knew a California State Park Ranger who has a nice cabin in the park where he lived with his wife and two daughters. He used to run around the State Park after getting off work and before having dinner with the family. However, his wife came down with cancer and died shortly before he retired and his daughters went away to university too. Well, in the months before he left his cabin for good, he still went running as per usual. And then it happened: he came down with excruciating back pain. The docs had a look, ran an MRI, and told him his pain was due to that out-of-wack facet. Case closed? Lay off running. But he'd had a spinal abnormality since he was born and it had never bothered him before. The only things that had changed was that his wife was gone, his daughters were gone, and he was coming up on retirement. In other words, when he was out running he was still anticipating coming home to dinner with his now departed family. The out-of-wack facet in his spine was only a physical trigger he began noticing while simultaneously under a number of real powerful stressors. Nothing physical changed at all. I clued him in and I believe he went on to complete an LLD at Hastings Law School after retirement. He's now visiting his daughters and grand kids in Colorado too. No talke anymore about congenital back problems either.
Lainey
Well known member
Hi Bruce,
I'm not clear on what you mean by the fact of one vertebrae or facet being out of line with the rest of the back. The pics of my two discs with the spondy show distinctly the two discs being out of line with the rest of the back (spinal column). I suppose these are the facets, but am not certain, but it is evidently different than herniated discs. This, to my understanding, is the classic symptom of spondylothesis, whether or not is is congenital or a recent occurance and whether or not it causes pain. I do not know if I was born with it or not, but it was never a problem before I became a TMS poster child.
Yet, no matter, as far as TMS is concerned this back issue (spondylothesis) need not create pain. You are probably correct in your analysis of your friend who began having pain when there was so much loss in his life. So much sorrow, how can our minds let us lose ourselves in this? Cleverly it creates TMS. Sigh.
Lainey
BruceMC
Beloved Grand Eagle
Just imagine running around the same Park trails you've been jogging on for 20 years before going home to your little cabin with the wife and family. Now he was running those same trails knowing he was soon to be out of a job he'd had for many, many years, anticipating in his mind he was going to get back to an empty cabin where he had to make his own dinner. No wife. No lovely daughters. A pink slip and retirement on the way. Talk about a sense of loss and bereavement! No wonder his back started hurting.
Think Dr Sarno talks somewhere about that congenital facet misalignment. It's where one vertebrae has advanced ahead of the others in the spine.
Mtngal, you were able to heal previously from your back pain and I have a lot of respect for you for getting that far. You will be able to do it again. As I read your description of how you injured your self, I just could feel the anger (mine and yours). Why didn't Doc shovel his butt out and come and pick u up and help load heavy equipment? That's the red flag for me - not the spondylo. His expectations clearly made you angry. Makes me wonder if u are putting up with way too much on this job.
For some reason I just noticed I posted in the wrong forum here, the professional TMS blog so my apologies. Thank you so much all of you for your insightful comments. I so appreciate your enlighten views. Very interesting about the park ranger and I’m so blown over by laineys journaling overcoming the pain and it therefore being TMS and not the spondylolisthesis. And yes Timbercat I was in a rage about the doc not helping me and then subsequently not even caring that I fell. I also know my yoga teachers husband, who had OCD, has spondylolisthesis, and ran miles and miles for years, only stopping due to the development of heal spurs. Now he workouts every morning for 3 hours on a NordicTrak Machine (from 3am to 6 am 7 days a week- I know, hard to believe. No mention of back pain ). I think my TMS is back because now the pain has moved into my old thoracic-lumbar/ upper back pattern. At first at the fall it was just SI joint pain and not a peep from my upper back. I have a fear of aging and losing my dear sister and brother in law. I think that’s my trigger. To be separated and alone is just terrifying to me. I think my tms is keeping me from contemplating that. Will work on journaling which is hard for me for some reason but will try as I need to get out of the “Abyss” as Dr Hanscom calls it.
Mtngal. I know exactly what u mean by the abyss. I feel like I am trying to get out of mine too. I also have a fear of aging and being alone. I just watched my sister (71) and brother in law (72) get hospitalized for a vicious influenza. Both are home and recovering now. I' m 68 so I think about how old we all are now...we really cherish our time together and hope for a lot more. And I think u are so right that this fuels the tms. I feel like I am in the midst of a huge extinction outburst except unfortunately, nothing becomes extinct yet. It all just keeps rolling through me. I am finding claire weeks book very helpful. I am sending u warm wishes and hope u feel better soon.
Well I’m just going to turn 64 and I know exactly what you mean by an idea of extinction hanging over our heads. I have always felt like I’m still 25. My whole life I have been a runner and athlete and that has always kept me feeling young. When that’s taken away from me by this back problem I go downhill fast. But we must keep the faith and keep going. Thinking of you.
Spondylolthesis help. Looking for any similar stories
I am seeking help and advice as I have little hope. I was a college lacrosse player , playing after college for a number of years and have since become an avid runner and Tri Athlete. I was doing work out classes or running every day until a year ago. Before that, I was noticing that I was just having small aches in my lower back for a few months until one night when I was standing at a client event, I felt my lower back seize up and almost feel weak. After trying to rest and even battle thru it, I finally saw a physiatrist. He told me I have 10mm of spondylolthesis and labeled it just below a grade 2.
What was unique was that he referenced an MRI from 2012 that I had done. At that time, I was having severe headaches after a routine knee surgery that the doctors believed I got a spinal (csf leak) from the spinal anesthesia. What amazed me was that I never had back pain then and the MRIs were identical. Same degrees of spondy and every disc was the same. They told me to rest and do PT but nothing worked. I have spent the last 10 months trying 7 different PTs, accupunture, dry needling, chiro, cryo, hype baric chambers, Deep tissue massage, yoga, pilates and meditation. Nothing has worked and this pain hasnt gone away. It is the first thing I think about when I wake up and is the last every night before bed. I have become obsessed with this. Over the summer, I thought I was getting better and then got off the dance floor at a family wedding and couldn't walk because the outside of my hip was throbbing.
I have become fixated with trying to beat this and have little hope. I am terrified of the thought of my life being altered and being in pain.
MY pain is not typical I would say; I have never had nerve pain down my legs. I have a dull ache on my spine where it feels like my skin is glued to the surface and every once in a while i have this tingling on the skin...almost like there is a lil insect crawling around my spine.
I keep on going back to thought that maybe I am different, and this is a bad spondy and needs fusion. However, I also realize that the imaging was the same and as doctors have said it must be congential
I think the lack of significant improvement has been caught up here. I want to believe its TMS and given other symptoms (headache in past, fixation on images and diagnosis) but feel like I cant until i 100% believe it is. One Dr told me i need surgery asap, and that thought is front and center in my mind.
Apologize to be rambling on, but if any similar experiences, I would love to learn more.
I am seeking help and advice as I have little hope. I was a college lacrosse player , playing after college for a number of years and have since become an avid runner and Tri Athlete. I was doing work out classes or running every day until a year ago. Before that, I was noticing that I was just having small aches in my lower back for a few months until one night when I was standing at a client event, I felt my lower back seize up and almost feel weak. After trying to rest and even battle thru it, I finally saw a physiatrist. He told me I have 10mm of spondylolthesis and labeled it just below a grade 2.
What was unique was that he referenced an MRI from 2012 that I had done. At that time, I was having severe headaches after a routine knee surgery that the doctors believed I got a spinal (csf leak) from the spinal anesthesia. What amazed me was that I never had back pain then and the MRIs were identical. Same degrees of spondy and every disc was the same. They told me to rest and do PT but nothing worked. I have spent the last 10 months trying 7 different PTs, accupunture, dry needling, chiro, cryo, hype baric chambers, Deep tissue massage, yoga, pilates and meditation. Nothing has worked and this pain hasnt gone away. It is the first thing I think about when I wake up and is the last every night before bed. I have become obsessed with this. Over the summer, I thought I was getting better and then got off the dance floor at a family wedding and couldn't walk because the outside of my hip was throbbing.
I have become fixated with trying to beat this and have little hope. I am terrified of the thought of my life being altered and being in pain.
MY pain is not typical I would say; I have never had nerve pain down my legs. I have a dull ache on my spine where it feels like my skin is glued to the surface and every once in a while i have this tingling on the skin...almost like there is a lil insect crawling around my spine.
I keep on going back to thought that maybe I am different, and this is a bad spondy and needs fusion. However, I also realize that the imaging was the same and as doctors have said it must be congential
I think the lack of significant improvement has been caught up here. I want to believe its TMS and given other symptoms (headache in past, fixation on images and diagnosis) but feel like I cant until i 100% believe it is. One Dr told me i need surgery asap, and that thought is front and center in my mind.
Apologize to be rambling on, but if any similar experiences, I would love to learn more.
Cactusflower
Beloved Grand Eagle
@mmunnelly
I think you are in the right place.
When you first felt your back pain at the client meeting, what was going on in your life? What were your stress levels?
Can you remember feeling stressed or anxious around the times of backspin or headaches?
Do you think perhaps you have anxiety that you’ve never really identified before? Sometimes it takes a little thinking, and now currently noticing these kinds of things. Certainly you have pre-occupations and repetitive negative thoughts about imaging and your symptoms. Fear.
How do you actually feel about your situation if you stop and sit with what you’ve been going through?
I was diagnosed with Spondylolthesis in many places in my back and neck by a neurosurgeon. He said this I did not need surgery. Such a relief, especially after I’d read Dr. Sarno explaining that this condition is a normal abnormality!
If you have not yet read a tms book, I suggest Dr. Sarno and perhaps Dr. Hanscom’s book Back In Control. He is a retired back surgeon now a tms advocate, and his website and blogs are a maze of insight.. https://backincontrol.com/ (Home - Back in Control)
Both of these resources explain the science behind tms, and Dr. Hanscom’s book elaborates on Sarno’s theories of repressed rage (and other emotions) as well as offering self- treatment options and the inspiration of his own tms and anxiety story and struggle with repetitive negative thoughts.
Through these books I learned that the T in tms is the tension which we often don’t even recognize within us. It has become our internal norm, and it can be physically so strong it literally cause many physical manifestations. But these things are just tension. Not to be feared, and they can resolve.
I think you are in the right place.
When you first felt your back pain at the client meeting, what was going on in your life? What were your stress levels?
Can you remember feeling stressed or anxious around the times of backspin or headaches?
Do you think perhaps you have anxiety that you’ve never really identified before? Sometimes it takes a little thinking, and now currently noticing these kinds of things. Certainly you have pre-occupations and repetitive negative thoughts about imaging and your symptoms. Fear.
How do you actually feel about your situation if you stop and sit with what you’ve been going through?
I was diagnosed with Spondylolthesis in many places in my back and neck by a neurosurgeon. He said this I did not need surgery. Such a relief, especially after I’d read Dr. Sarno explaining that this condition is a normal abnormality!
If you have not yet read a tms book, I suggest Dr. Sarno and perhaps Dr. Hanscom’s book Back In Control. He is a retired back surgeon now a tms advocate, and his website and blogs are a maze of insight.. https://backincontrol.com/ (Home - Back in Control)
Both of these resources explain the science behind tms, and Dr. Hanscom’s book elaborates on Sarno’s theories of repressed rage (and other emotions) as well as offering self- treatment options and the inspiration of his own tms and anxiety story and struggle with repetitive negative thoughts.
Through these books I learned that the T in tms is the tension which we often don’t even recognize within us. It has become our internal norm, and it can be physically so strong it literally cause many physical manifestations. But these things are just tension. Not to be feared, and they can resolve.
Thanks so much for response. I certainly have had some stressful events over that time; financial situation with a parent, other one passed away suddenly. I think what I’m having difficult with is the obsession of the diagnosis and this belief that my situation is different due to the 1 surgeon telling me I needed surgery.
I will start reading these books and thank you for Dr Hansons recommendation. I have not heard of that. I also feel like my symptoms are different, given no nerve pain but a dull ache on spine and joint. Could that still be TMS?