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Query of a paragraph in Steve's book ...

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by Lily Rose, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Lily Rose

    Lily Rose Beloved Grand Eagle

    Page 215, 3rd paragraph: So, physical suffering then serves as a punisher for the unthinkable. Our darker side (Thanatos) is somewhat curious and desiring of the ideas of suicide, rape, murder, torture -- things of such unimaginable horror to our conscious being that they must be imprisoned in the dark (the body), never allowed to fully develop into a conscious thought. Pain and illness once again arrive to save our day, as we self-inflict wounds that don't meet our conscious codes of morality. Sick pleasures of death wishes and of doing harm to others begin when moral responsibility overwhelms us.

    I have put this into a 'holding pattern' until I have a better understanding of what I am reading. I would deeply be appreciative of perspectives other than my own on what this is actually meaning.

    with grace and gratitude,
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
    Eric "Herbie" Watson and Msunn like this.
  2. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    Have you ever hurt so bad that you wanted to die. Or like the mind of an individual that has thoughts of perversion and those thoughts actually drive this person into pain since they would not torture or kill a person in real life.
    I believe some of the thoughts above are from people that got raped or hurt badly in a way when they were young so as they got older they might have thoughts of suicide or even killing and torturing the ones that hurt them. I know its deep. What did you think Lily Rose?
    Msunn likes this.
  3. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    I think Thanatos is the 'Will to Death' that Freud says stands in opposition to Eros, the 'Will to Life'. There's a delicate balancing act inside each individual between these two dark and light forces. Steve?
  4. Lily Rose

    Lily Rose Beloved Grand Eagle

    I read the paragraph as: People who suppress their darker urges then develop TMS. And, that everyone has those thoughts. Not that they would all act on the thoughts, but that they have them. And in burying them, problems develop.

    This is why I wish clarification.

    Have I ever hurt so bad that I wanted to die? Very much so. Every single day of my life since I was 12 years old, until about 9 years ago. Then it wasn't every day. Then it wasn't every week, month, and now years. Sexually abused, my heart-father's suicide, violently abused by an alcoholic 2nd step-father for 5 years, drugged while living with my biological family for 9-1/2 weeks when I was 17, and after returning home ... raped. I still have great difficulty reading the word, and more so typing it. Oh yes, death was my friend and I yearned for it. Death is still my friend, but now he is patient and will await the proper time *smiles gently*

    This paragraph disturbs me as it seems to be saying it is normal of have thoughts of .. raping .. someone. "desiring of the ideas of suicide, rape, murder, torture". Is this true? Do all men really have this thought in their heads at some time or another?

    I have never fantasized about hurting anyone who has hurt me. I know what it feels like to hurt, and I would not wish it upon anyone else.

    This is why I need to have this clarified.

    with grace, and much gratitude,
  5. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    I guess that we all have violent thoughts to one or another extend, it must not be as extreme as wishing to rape or to kill, I think that really depends on the individual. What I consider to be much more important is how the individuals, as these kind of "bad" thoughts come into consciuosness, evaluate it. I guess the person who tends to see itself (himself? Uh, English grammar....) as bad for having these thoughts in a very judging manner (perhaps dependent on how it was allowed to say "bad" things or to show some anger in childhood) is more likely to develop TMS as the person who says "so what, it's just a thought, as long as I don't act on it it's ok".
    That reminds me of a recording in the Alan Gordon recovering programme where a man imagined to hurt or to kill his mother.
    I tend to be very harsh on myself when I notice "bad" thoughts whereas a friend of mine (to whom I talked about exactly these themes) just answered: "of course I have these kind of thoughts....like stabbing my little doughter to death just the moment she enters the kitchen". UGH :hungover:. Well, he does not suffer from any health issues, but I do.
    I guess the more one allows oneself having all kind of thoughts without judging them or considering oneself to be a bad person, the more these thoughts loose their power and don't need to be stuffed in the unconscious to such an extreme extend that it comes to TMS.
    My father was a very cruel saddist and I never wanted to be like him. So I guess, as I suffered a lot and from a psychological perspective it's just a "normal" defense mechanism to identify oneself with the aggressor plus I never was allowed to show my anger or say "bad" things, I have a warehouse of cruel thoughts in my unconscious. But I can only speak for myself.
  6. yb44

    yb44 Beloved Grand Eagle

    I'll give you an example of this. Yesterday my estranged mother rang me out of the blue for the first time in about 4 years asking me why I had not contacted her. She who projects guilt trips like a seasoned flame thrower believes that everything is my fault while she has and always will be blameless. She was angry and bitter during the whole conversation, hardly someone who I would want to resume contact with, mother or not. I told her I would not grovel or apologise which I have always done in the past. I would accept 50% of the blame, no more. She didn't know how to respond to this. She kept asking me to consider if I would like to be in touch from now on and then get back to her. Otherwise she would "comply" and never attempt to contact me again. She awaits my reply by email.

    I am having some pretty murderous thoughts of my own right now. :mad::rage::punch: I have formulated various replies in my head but refrain from writing that email. :muted: A mixture of feelings such as guilt :sorry:, sorrow and disconnection are lurking under the surface and I can sense myself stuffing them all down. In the early hours before her call I woke up with a horrific migraine. :hungover: Was this a premonition? I keep thinking about Ellen's storm front migraine trigger and imagine my mother as a dark cloud, gale force winds and slashing rain. Today my symptoms are markedly worse. :hurting: I have allowed them to take over, serving their purpose of keeping me focused on my physical limitations as opposed to the productive day I had originally planned for myself. Oh and it did rain here this morning. The dog and I looked like drowned rats after our walk. :drowning:

    I may be wrong but I think this is what SteveO was getting at in the paragraph above.
  7. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Lily Rose, I'm not sure either what this paragraph means, so I'm emailing it to Steve and ask if he
    can clarify it. He's busy preparing for a lecture so he may not be able to reply right away.
  8. Lily Rose

    Lily Rose Beloved Grand Eagle

    Thanatos and Eros ... I can understand the opposition ... internally. Our sorrow and our joys, our weariness and our fire of energy. The concept is poetic, and rife with symbolism.

    Thank you, Walt. I do not wish to 'mis' understand what I am reading. Words have power, and some words mean different things to different people. It is all a matter of our own perceptions.

    with grace and gratitude,
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  9. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Lily Rose, I just got this reply from SteveO:

    ok Walt thanks for the heads up. It's a great question, lily is a smart cookie. The answer is long, so I will try to get to it sometime.

    He's busy preparing for a lecture but expect a reply soon.

    Meanwhile, toss those bad thoughts in the trash can and think happy and sunny and laugh.
  10. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    I see why you want it clarified. I have never wanted to kill or rape or commit suicide either. I don't think its a man thing at all. Maybe a predator thing in which someone is just born with this sickness or it was times of war and megadeth. Lily Rose ( Bless You my Friend ) I really don't know what the original author meant here other than the mind of some person that wants revenge for being hurt badly I cant really wrap my mind around this concept. Steve has done a lot of studies in Sigmund's works and Jung's. I'm sure he will be able to explain it in detail.

    It has to do with that side in someone that has those thoughts I'd assume but I'd rather not know those thoughts from the person although in my near future I know I'll have to work with those type of individuals since I'm going back to school in June to get my bachelor's degree in psychology.

    I don't always agree with all of Sigmund's conclusions as to a society in whole. I love knowing how society thinks as a whole too and I am with you, I don't believe everyone thinks like that. Although we both know -- some do.

    And I'd take Walts advice for now. Do your best not to ponder those thoughts. Save your thoughts for only the pure wholesome thoughts we have all come to love and adore.

    God bless
    G.R., North Star and Lily Rose like this.
  11. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    That's great that you're going back to school to study psychology. Congratulations and good luck!
  12. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    Thank You Ellen. I really appreciate that. :)
  13. Lily Rose

    Lily Rose Beloved Grand Eagle

    *laughs softly* Pure .. perhaps, wholesome? Not so much ;) Thank you for sharing some insights, everyone. It worried me terribly to imagine that everyone really might have such thoughts.

    Herbie ... have fun at school! Sometimes I have a whisper of wistfulness about school. I was always an honor student, yet that path was severed along time ago. I wouldn't change it now, as I wouldn't be with my life-mate, but sometimes I daydream :)

    with grace and gratitude,
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  14. Lily Rose

    Lily Rose Beloved Grand Eagle

    Small update: I suppose this was bound to happen, with all this delving, and the mind seeking distractions .... the night demons arose and swarmed. It has been many years since a full-blown nightmare has infiltrated. Our adopted, sweet Lucy, was frightened by the midnight awakening of terror. She cuddled close. My husband, a veteran of such nights, waited with quiet patience, and after my breath unhitched, asked so softly, 'what was it?', and I only gave him one word, Washington. No other words were needed. He knew.

    A fissure through the calm layers becomes merely another aspect of this healing journey. A breach, a peek into the underworld, but more than simply observing, there is an engulfing of unresolved emotions.

    This book of Steve's is quite provocative, and rather quirky at times. Humor-laced pain, or pain-laced humor (I always want to spell this as humour ... it stumbles me every time) ... the combination keeps the mind from falling too far into that darkness. Like carrying a torch through a winding cave.

    It is a new day, though still dark outside .... I am gathering my resources, and forging forth.

    Always, a new adventure *smiles*

    with grace and gratitude,
  15. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Herbie, you're perfect person to study psychology. I think it's going to make you an even more fantastic person,
    if that is possible.

    Lily Rose, no wonder you had a nightmare if you woke up with the word "Washington."
    That would do it to anyone, even politicians who cause us to have nightmares.

    I know a former US Rep and he had no conscience. He did more evil in 2 years than ten people.
    Yet, I have to forgive him. It ain't easy. I won't forgive him in person, but I try to in my heart.
    What helps is, I pray for him, for God to judge and forgive him.

    The weather new last night didn't give me a nightmare but it made it hard to go to sleep.
    The forecast was for flooding and for everyone to make sure their catch basin was open for water
    from snow and ice melting (Chicago area). I saw standing water around my catch basin where
    the driveway meets the street. This morning we had another inch of fresh snow so the water
    that was there froze. I feel like just ignoring the rest of this winter and not trying to keep up with it
    every day.
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  16. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    I forgot to add a TMS element.
    I didn't want to shovel more snow this morning, but did.
    I cleared the front walk and a section out the back door to the garage.
    I didn't feel any back pain, and decided that was my exercise for the day.

    What I don't want to do, I just do. Then I feel better, at least psychologically.
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  17. North Star

    North Star Beloved Grand Eagle

    {{{Lily Rose}}} No words. But I will confess to my dark urges…The scene at the 1.36 minute mark is what I struggle with at times. ;) Herbie, you will totally rock at school. What a perfect field of study for you!

    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  18. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Very funny repressed emotion.

    Mothers can be very possessive.
  19. North Star

    North Star Beloved Grand Eagle

    Oh yes…perfect illustration. And yes, I have imagined taking someone by their hair and smashing their face into a cake. Or slapping them silly. Thankfully, the absurdity of my mini fantasies helps me lighten up.
    Ellen and Lily Rose like this.
  20. chickenbone

    chickenbone Well known member

    Hi Lily Rose, "I read the paragraph as: People who suppress their darker urges then develop TMS. And, that everyone has those thoughts. Not that they would all act on the thoughts, but that they have them. And in burying them, problems develop."

    You interpreted these words exactly right.

    I can tell you what this paragraph in Steve's book means to me. All human beings have this darker side. Some more than others. What happened to you in childhood would not have happened if this were not true. I agree it is frightening to see this in print, but the reason we are frightened by SEEING it is because we know there is a darker side to all of our natures that is hidden within ourselves, from ourselves. So Steve is not telling us something that we do not already know.

    However, there are more than just the options of either "repress" or "act out". There is the higher option of seeing and observing this negative nature within ourselves, without running from it or being terrified by it, or judging it. It is in the very nature of understanding it, without judgment, that allows us to know it is there and yet leave it's dark urges behind. I believe we accomplish this by cultivating the opposite of this dark nature in ourselves, not by fighting the dark nature. Neither acting out dark thoughts and urges nor repressing them will make someone healthy and whole. But we can rob them of most of their existence within ourselves by remembering that the seed that we water is the one that grows. Steve certainly is not implying that we should act on them, but I think he is getting at the idea that they can be even more destructive to ourselves when we bury them.
    Forest, plum and North Star like this.

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