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Notes from training w/ Dr. Schubiner and Alan Gordon

Our self-identities, self-images can be seen as examples of well-worn "neural pathways!" And like any pattern, these can be reworked with effort and patience.
 
There are 2 trains of thought on all of this. The neuroplasticity theory vs. Sarno's repressed emotions (anger) theory. Sorry patients don't give a rip about the physiology....they just want to hear that they can heal. Sarno was able to convey that message better than anyone on the planet and his patients who believed.... healed because that is how strong the mind is and he knew it. Sarno also said about his fellow doctors, "if they can't test it in the lab...they won't believe it ?" Doctors love evidenced based research because that's the way they were trained. Sarno was trained differently. Drs. Hanscum, Schubiner, & Stracks have been trained in a way that they need something more than a repressed anger theory. Those guys don't like eating their lunch alone believe me. So if a MRI's of the brain will show what lights up during pain, anxiety etc. I say go for it.....if Sarno knew that his theory could be proved with technology do you really believe he's say NO don't study that ? He didn't enjoy eating his lunch alone like a little boy being bullied by the big boys ? Dr. Sarno would want to be vindicated for all his hard work and the mental anguish he endured by his so-called colleagues. In 50-100 years someone will prove it (or something) and his work will be a reference point in some research study.
 
Steve Ozanich said:
Bruce it's common for something like that to trigger some or all the symptoms. I got 2 people off of pain meds and their pain immediately stopped. As long as fear is present there will be a need for it to be diverted somewhere. The mind is the hell, it's the problem because it includes thinking. The physical and the psychological are always in touch back and forth communicating. They magnify and reinforce one another in a closed loop for survival until you move beyond them into simply being. At that point there's no need for diversion because the mental is out of the picture.
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Yes, I was definitely in a self-reinforcing feedback loop where the Qvar amped me up, which exaggerated the emotions that drive the TMS pain process. Amazing how just a week off steroids is like a new day dawning. The sky is bluer, everything is more fun, yes, less frightening. Funny, how the pain lodged in old injury sites just like classic TMS. I guess those old pain memories were amplified by the steroid. The docs told me though that Qvar was only topical, but they didn't talk how much more of it you would absorb if you were working out and running all the time. Sounds like perfect example of where big pharma uses the medical establishment to get people on meds and keep using them as part of what they called an "asthma management program". Once you were locked into the program, you just kept reordering more Qvar! Robot.

Thanks for confirming my experience with your far wider range of experience with pain patients. I can see this pattern too where I took two puffs of Qvar in the morning, my legs and back would hurt, I'd go on a manic bike ride, and then the pain disappeared. In other words, the exercise got the Qvar out of my system and the pain went down. Then, next day back into the two puffs cycle followed by increasing pain. I just never put two and two together and concluded, Qvar was what was wrong in the equation. Of course, the steroid ultimately made my allergies and asthma worse so I just kept at it with a vengeance thinking I was doing myself good. But just take a look at what MMA fighter Jon 'Bones' Jones has done to himself and his career popping roids and penis pills to counteract the side-effects?

Many thanks again, Hombre!

PS- I get the feeling that my hypertension was trigger by my getting closer and closer to my repressed emotion. Going off Qvar was a breakthrough of course but I was already moving in that direction slowly but surely when I sold my parents haunted house and moved to the wilds of Sonora. The old homestead was keeping things bottled up.
 
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Click#7 said:
if Sarno knew that his theory could be proved with technology do you really believe he's say NO don't study that ?
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Dr Sarno did say he'd welcome future neurological studies that would confirm his theory and practice. He said it would be good if someone did that in the future, but Dr Sarno was for healing in the present. A pragmatist and a clinician.
 
Just to support SteveO's point: adopting a naturalistic language about ourselves ("nerves, pathways, hormons etc. are doing this and that") is distancing us from ourselves. The scientific perspective is that of an observer and is very good for doing research. When we are talking about ourselves, then feelings, emotions, personal views etc. are what is important, we are not observers of ourselves - we are ourselves. I also think it is especially dangerous for TMSer to delve into the scientific language and try to get a kind of neutral perspective upon ourselves. I am not saying that these two views are not compatible. And it is good to know that there is nothing structurally wrong with us. But to read scientific articles and speculate about the underlying physiology of TMS is not helpful when you are trying to heal. It's another situation when you are healed. But believe me, it is sometimes difficult not to be influenced by the doubt that necessarily comes with science.
 
Steve Ozanich said:
Bruce it's common for something like that to trigger some or all the symptoms. I got 2 people off of pain meds and their pain immediately stopped. As long as fear is present there will be a need for it to be diverted somewhere. The mind is the hell, it's the problem because it includes thinking. The physical and the psychological are always in touch back and forth communicating. They magnify and reinforce one another in a closed loop for survival until you move beyond them into simply being. At that point there's no need for diversion because the mental is out of the picture.

Andy you will write a great book, you have style and class and more importantly compassion. Yes the mind wants the fear diverted and the notion of something physical needing fixed only shifts the problem. The physiology is indeed not important, only the treatment. But the treatment itself often becomes the TMSing and the loop starts all over again if they feel that they have to "fix" something in their head. The more I work with people the more I see they do not want to heal.

SteveO
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SO....are you saying the pain meds were the trigger, the diversion, or conditioning ? Tell me why you think the intensity of pain would be so severe ? Hope you respond because your point of view is always respected !
 
Click#7 said:
SO....are you saying the pain meds were the trigger, the diversion, or conditioning ? Tell me why you think the intensity of pain would be so severe ? Hope you respond because your point of view is always respected !
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Probably all three, but I'd welcome an answer from Steve O too. Sounds like that Qvar (steroid) made me more obsessive compulsive and created a fertile field for the TMS process. Keeping all the old injury sites riled up and active certainly provided perfect places for TMS to locate the pain symptoms. Seven or either years ago, at the moment of my fall on my butt out running though, I had just experienced the death of my family doctor of 40 years (my late mother's doctor too) and an episode of romantic rejection in search of a mother substitute. Of course, the TMS pain in my left leg and lower back started up when all the proper psychological coordinates were in place. So the mechanism itself was classic TMS repressed emotionality.

I know that Andy Weil, M.D. talks about how topical steroids will magically make a problem like eczema or allergy disappear like lightning, but that doesn't mean that the underlying problem has gone away. Often it locates itself somewhere else in your body. Seems as though Qvar banished my allergies but the underlying body-mind process relocated it in the old injury site in my left leg and lower back. Really funny how a drug like that will have an impact in the body and the mind simultaneously. Not so funny really! Sure wish to heck that my old family doctor hadn't died. An internationally recognized internist of the first caliber he would have told me to go off Qvar and see what happened. Interesting too how something that was prescribe to get rid of a health issue perpetuated and intensified the very health issue it was designed to fix. The net result was that my allergies got worse at the same time I began experiencing chronic pain. You can see how the whole approach of the medical establishment has to be realigned in terms of an holistic approach to mind-body medicine. Or at least an approach based on common sense!

Oh well! End of rant!
 
Sadie said:
Hi all,

This past weekend, I got to attend a training with Dr. Schubiner and Alan Gordon on how providers can integrate the mind-body approach to chronic pain into their work. I feel so lucky that I was able to go to this training. I can’t say enough good things about Dr. Schubiner and Alan – they are both so kind, down to earth, passionate about what they do, and also, really funny. I also met a bunch of awesome, open-minded, and caring people including Andy B :)

I wanted to share some of the most helpful takeaways that I wrote down from the training (helpful for providers as well as people who have neural pathway pain). I’m not recapping everything I wrote because most of it is available in Unlearn Your Pain and Alan’s free program on this site, just some key points:

-Be careful of the language you use. For example, think “sensations” instead of pain.
-Pain is a message from the brain – it’s up to us to figure out what the message is.
-It is not required to have a major trauma leading up to your pain; it can be triggered by something relatively minor that you may not even be consciously aware of.
-Our brains cannot perfectly distinguish between a physical and a psychological threat.
-It’s important to document evidence of exceptions (e.g. if you are pain-free on the weekend but then the pain starts again on Sunday night right before you have to go back to work).
-Fear is fuel for pain.
-The faster you want to get better, the longer it will take.
-Conditioned responses can be addressed by exposure to activities while feeling safe and confident.
-Sometimes making a life change is a critical part of solving the problem.
-The stories we tell ourselves are powerful – you can be the hero of your own story.

This training helped me understand to not make things more complicated than they are. If all the evidence points to neural pathway pain (which it does for me), that’s the logical conclusion. All of my doubt is gone at this point.

I hope this helpful! Feel free to message me if you have any questions.
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Albertson22 said:
Any insight on chronic fatigue syndrome where's the oxygen deprivation out with this syndrome thank you
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In TMS, I don't think the physiology is as important as recognizing and knowing that fatigue is a common symptom, and applying the right treatment, which is what Dr. Sarno, and others have given us. Just my experience...
 
Albertson22 said:
Any insight on chronic fatigue syndrome where's the oxygen deprivation out with this syndrome thank you
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I know a guy who's had it for 3 years now, and, as the old saying goes, "The can't find anything wrong", even after administering batteries of tests. Sure sounds like deep-seated emotions must play an important part in CFS. As an aside, I noticed last summer that this was the first time I ever noticed him looking older. Appearances are deceptive, but you have to wonder if that might be the trigger behind his CFS?
 
Believe me, Steve, I want to heal. I’ve been dealing with TMS probably my whole life, and have been doing this work often on for the last five years. My issue, is how do I take my focus off my body, when all I have right now is time on my hands? since quitting my job, I have had too much time, while waiting to get another one. I have a lot of stresses currently, not to mention all the traumatic memories. It feels like I’m flooded, as my therapist says. So, how do you let go of that constant fixation on the body, especially when it is so painful?

Like yesterday, I had such a bad headache that I was sick. I tried focusing on other things, but when your head is constantly feeling like an ice pick is poking it all the time, it’s hard to ignore that. I know it’s TMS, that is not the issue. The issue is getting my brain to stop protecting me, even when I have told it that it doesn’t need to be protected anymore, ad nauseam. It seems the longer you have TMS, the harder it is to get the brain to reset itself. I often wonder if something like hypnotherapy could actually reset the brain to accept the new knowledge.
 
Jules said:
My issue, is how do I take my focus off my body, when all I have right now is time on my hands? since quitting my job, I have had too much time, while waiting to get another one.
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Isolation does seem like a common denominator behind the development of TMS. Very easy to somatize on your body and its aches and pains when you've got time on your hands. It's like a perfect environment for repressed emotions to start bubbling up and take over.
 
Does anyone know where to get a Dr. Sarno "healing back pain" study guide? I know it comes with the DVD but I watched the DVD online so I would prefer to just buy the study guide. I have TMS and want to work Sarno's program which apparently you can do with the study guide. I know other people like Nicole Sachs, Howard Schubiner, etc... make workbooks and guides but I think it might be best to follow Dr. Sarno's directly if possible. Thanks so much!
 
Andy B,

Thanks so much! This is great. This helps me a lot. I have read Dr. Sarno's books and I get the general idea of what he recommends people do to recover from TMS symptoms but I was looking for more a specific guideline. I was looking for what Dr. Sarno had his patients actually do each day and the link you provided to Forrest's post is just what I have been looking for.

Thanks again!
 
Jerpou said:
In brief it's more easy to suffer pain than get a life
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I do notice that in TMS healing. I think it's avoidance though. Because healing from TMS means that you have to learn to "feel" the underlying bad emotions that are driving your TMS symptoms, it's easier to stay preoccupied with the painful symptoms than confront their root causes, which are by their very nature emotionally painful.
 
I just came across this thread and read it with great interest. It seems to me that many of the points discussed here were covered by Dr. Abraham Low in his writings, back in the 1950's, and I commend them to anyone interested in healing from TMS. Had Dr. Low and Dr. Sarno been contemporaries, I'm certain that they would have gotten along famously.
 
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