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Not all chronic pain is due to learned neural pathways in the brain.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ, Aug 12, 2017.

  1. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    Alan Gordon LCSW wrote in "Day 3: Identifying the Source"
    The conclusion is: if something can be found on the mri or ct, it is not tms, if nothing can be found it is tms. Once medically fixed, the leftover pain is tms.
    1. What about those diseases that cause pain but are not detectable, like infections that are not being found or injuries to the nerves that are too small to detect?
    2. Is their pain TMS?
    3. Also, in how far does the diagnosis TMS help you get rid of your pain?
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    Saffron likes this.
  2. sadoromi

    sadoromi New Member

    I'd like to add that:
    1. There are people with terrible disc injuries yet they experience no pain whatsoever. They just live with huge buldges in their spine and they have no idea, because it doesnt cause them any symptoms.
    2. There are people who couldn't recover from actual biological conditions untill they've resolved their psychological issues. These issues were slowing down the healing process or making it completely impossible.
    Just something to consider.
    plum, Chizzy, Gigalos and 1 other person like this.
  3. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    What is your conclusion from this?
  4. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hi Swez, I agree, with your perception in concluding given the testimony stated that conclusion seems to be inherently inferred if not sometimes outright stated. It is said often that 80% of all persons experiencing chronic pain are TMS symptomatic. I would imagine many off of this site would loudly dispute that figure, yet it is referred to again and again.

    Your questions are good and valid ones, though I would not have the answers to them other then the obvious.

    Some of mine are:

    If TMS presents itself because of lowered oxygen flow to the tissue (the flow of oxygen changes quite normally anyway, and I have yet to see any measurements as to how it was determined at what point of lowered oxygen do TMS symptoms appear), does the TMS cause the lowered oxygen, or does the lowered oxygen cause the TMS?

    If relief of pain through the acceptance of TMS as a placebo works for some, would that be considered an effective treatment?

    Nerve pain can be some of the most debilitating and frustrating to deal with for anyone, while it may take some of the frustration away to label it as TMS pain, because of lack of finding definitive causes, why wouldn't it be of interest to examine environmental causes since nerve diseases seem to have been on the increase in proportion to the knowledge of our polluting our environment and its effects on our nervous systems?

    Why expend the energy chasing around a buggaboo in ones head, call it what you will, "monkey mind", "The distractor", a controlling subconscious, the "inner bully" etc, etc, all of which are self centered by nature?

    If one of the main reasons TMS develops is to distract one from ones "rage" or other consciously unacceptable emotion, why not just create ones own distractions that are not self centered, like volunteering at a soup kitchen, helping a neighbor, planting flowers, picking up trash, etc?

    I have purposely left out being online with a support group as in this case it might be self serving as a maintenance tool, or tool for others to encourage and maintain a specific system of belief.
    Kat and Lily Rose like this.
  5. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    Do not include the environment. The environment is an unlikely factor which serves to complicate the issue without offering anything tangible. So you had an injury and your pain does not wane in the area you had the injury and all of a sudden, the environment is at fault for this and you should join Greenpeace? Unlikely.

    Do not downplay the placebo effect. Medicine supports the placebo effect to work better but what is healing in every instance is the placebo effect.

    Once I read that nobody believes in TMS 100% until it gets better. If getting better is related to TMS-practises, then people of course start believing TMS to be the cause 100%.

    To me TMS is this:
    1. When pain comes up, you distract yourself by digging in your past for some emotional event. When reliving this event, you cannot focus on the pain.
    2. Everytime you become aware of your pain, you think of some traumatic event in your past, to get an adrenaline rush of fear or another strong emotion.
    3. By not paying attention to your pain and having thoughts about it never ending, your brain can focus it's resources in healing this part of the body.
  6. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter


    LOL, no I am not a shill for Green peace! Yes , I agree, if you have an injury you should not think environmental unless you tripped over a log! I was speaking more about nerve disorders of unspecified nature.

    I also totally agree that a placebo is a verifiable mind body effect that should not be overlooked or discounted, but I have often read here when it is referred to that it is somehow less valid then TMS methods.

    My point was, to distract ones self, why is it necessary to do this kind of self review instead of outwardly motivating ones self in ways that do not require such self analyzing.
  7. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    TMS methods use the placebo effect without mentioning it to not make your brain neglect it and downplay it as - admit it, you do - useless and a waste of time.

    Ask those who promoted this idea. I presume it comes from the fact that those who promote it are psychotherapists and this is what they believe in. Had it come from a microbiologist, he would have recommended antibiotics, you get the idea.

    To sum up, to me it is distracting yourself with something that you believe in will make you feel better for a long enough time for your pain to subside - I hate the word "manage", who wants to "manage" their pain, we want to "get rid" of the pain, not "live better with it".
  8. Chizzy

    Chizzy Peer Supporter

    I am really surprised that Alan made this comment and posted this. This is very contradictive to what TMS therapist and doctors teach. I mean, come on Alan, most people have something wrong with their back on an MRI. Doesn't mean that they have pain from it. Sarno says that majority of backs has some type of abnormalities that show up on an MRI. I'm very disappointed that he said this, doesn't make any sense. If there is obvious tissue damage or structural damage where the pain is at then that's an obvious sign. But a lot of things can show up on an MRI that cause no pain. I know for me, I have chronic pelvic pain, my pelvis area can spasm at times which can lead to inflammation, the spasms are caused by tightness, tightness caused by TMS etc. Wow, bad post by Alan.
  9. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    Chizzy, what matters is: does TMS help get rid of the pain?
    My understanding of TMS and my conclusions did not help me get rid or even diminish my pelvic floor and genital pain.
    My understanding is what I mentioned, just like my conclusions.
    What are your conclusions, what do you do practically that helps you more and more diminish your pain?
  10. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

  11. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    ChizzY, keep on enjoying the beach!!
    Chizzy likes this.
  12. Chizzy

    Chizzy Peer Supporter

    That's what might matter to you. I don't want people that are struggling that believe in TMS to be thrown off by certain remarks like the one Alan made. Because, at the end of the day this is all Theory. I believe it's powerful to also come up with your own Theory. Have you read the book "The body keeps the score"? There is not a better book.... even healing back pain is nothing compared to the body keeps the score.... IMO.

    What I have learned through my treatment of PTSD and myself education on psychogenic disorders including TMS, is that for me, my brain always feels like it's not safe. The goal for me is to try to be in the moment and feel safe, because if I feel unsafe, my body creates immense tension and pain because that's the only way it can tell me that something's wrong. After studying and speaking with dr. Howard Schubiner, I truly believe that fear feeds the pain. Regardless of the emotional work, if you can truly not fear it, it can and will go away. Self-compassion is just as important is not fearing the pain. Much easier said than done. That's my own Theory. I was just pain free for almost two weeks and a couple days ago the pain cropped up again. I think I know why, but that's not important, what's important is that I try to remain focused on not fearing the pain. We all have our own paths, we all have our own stories, everyone's going to have their own theories, I think the book "the body keeps the score" outlines how the brain is affected by multiple things in our lives and how those things can create tension, pain, and debilitating injury/disease.

    BTW. Over the last two weeks, I have ran over 30 miles, and I have lifted weights for at least 7 hours. That's a lot of working out for someone that has so-called prostatitis, pudendal neuralgia, Interstitial cystitis, blah blah blah. Its all bullshit.... today I Incorporated my new weight vest.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    plum likes this.
  13. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

    If you are not afraid of pain, what is your mindset towards it? That you feel safe? So whenever pain sets in, you repeat "I am safe" in your mind till it subsides?
  14. Chizzy

    Chizzy Peer Supporter

    I am still learning not to be afraid of the pain. There are times when it comes up when I'm absolutely not afraid of it and I'm able to forget about it and it goes away. There are times when it starts to annoy me, and I start to fear that it's never going to leave, and I feed it with fear, therefore continues. I think the most important part is truly believing that it's psychogenic. Once you believe that, then you can start to incorporate tools like learning not to fear the pain. I think learning not to fear the pain can take quite some time, especially for someone like me who was in pain almost every single day for 2 years. Also, throughout my lifetime, I've been able to target experiences of pain that make absolutely no sense. This has been proof for me that this is something I've been dealing with for the better part of my whole life.
    Lily Rose and plum like this.
  15. dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ

    dIK8Lsf3Bl3y4DTtSWEZ Peer Supporter

  16. Chizzy

    Chizzy Peer Supporter

    Will do! Nice out in Cali
  17. Chizzy

    Chizzy Peer Supporter

    Unfortunately, what both you and I are doing right now, is a big No-No for the pain. When we're locked into researching and asking questions and blogging we are just feeding the fear. Trust me, I'm guilty of it too, my strength comes and goes in waves like the oceans current. Have some self compassion, take a warm bath, try to relax tonight and tell yourself that everything's going to be all right.
    plum likes this.
  18. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hi Swez,
    That is the page, the post I am speaking of is the fourth one down from the top of the page.
  19. sadoromi

    sadoromi New Member

    I think I wanted to not let people get discouraged from "his pain was not TMS, he had a real physical trauma". It sends a message that pain can be purely structural and there may be no point in adressing ones emotions. Someone here could've taken it personally and just give up.
    Because again, considering the two points i've mentioned in my previous post, physical pain may be controlled by emotions and psychological states, and everyone should at least try brainwashing himself/herself with Sarno's mantras and success stories for a couple of months and see if it helps, because sometimes it dramatically helps even with severe physical problems.

    Also, there are studies suggesting the link between severity of physical trauma and pain levels is very weak. Maybe that means the brain, emotions and psychology are always in charge of pain.
  20. CarboNeVo

    CarboNeVo Well known member

    I believe TMS can very often start as a physical symptom that will require some medical intervention and pain management. The injury will heal in few days or weeks as anything in the body and you should be just fine. You can even be left with some damage from the injury. For instance I have a broken knuckle in my right hand from kickboxing. When I move my finger I even see the bone moving differently compared to my other knuckles. Does it bother me or hurt? hell no. Yes it did hurt for few weeks but now years later its just fine despite the bone being a mess.
    Now where the problem starts; lets say the doctor told me "damn your bone is a mess and its affecting the nerves in the area, you should take care of you right hand for the rest of your life"
    I would be very likely now suffering with chronic hand pain or even RSI that would spread across both hands and arms if i googled my symptoms.
    It all comes to the message of safety and fear.
    Alan Gordon is a genius. Read his other posts, they make just so much sense.
    Chronic pain is kept by fear and preoccupation. There could have been a real pain and serious injury years back but if you are suffering with chronic pain now, that injury is very unlikely the cause. The cause is the brain now.
    In order to get out of this mess you need to change your perception and the quality of energy(danger signals) you are communicating to your brain. Those signals are generated mostly by your thoughts and some of your behavioral traits. Here comes Alan Gordons program as a perfect tool to help you redirect those thoughts and behaviors. Monte Heuftle's ideas are just as good as Alans as well.
    Lily Rose, Renny and plum like this.

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