Neuropathy or not question

[Some Guy]

Hi,

I have on question

I have long standing nerve issues for years - last two it's significantly progressing - I tentatively have the small fiber neuropathy label - idiopathic. No objective findings of nerve dysfunction.

On the other hand, I also have metabolic syndrome - high cholesterol, elevated blood sugar, belly fat (if you saw me I would not get the 'fat' label - more a moderate dad bod), fatty liver, and metabolic syndrome is know as a cause of SFN.

If I were to tackle the metabolic syndrome further (more exercise, lose weight, diet, supplements) that would reinforce the structural aspect. On the other hand if I ignore it, elevated blood sugar, high cholesterol etc are know to be less than ideal markers of aging and they should be tackled.

My feeling is try to get metabolic issues in order (incl. stress relief, relaxation, sleep, etc...) and once improved (if the nerve pain is worse or worsening) then go full TMS.

Thoughts?

 

[Cactusflower]

My thoughts:
Take care of your health. Most TMS “personalities” (Doctors etc who have written books, stress this). Eat well, exercise and focus on doing it because this is how people take care of themselves - illness or not. At the same time do the TMS work. The TMS work will begin to relieve your inner stress, and that will help reduce the hormones of stress which can create the chemicals of inflammation.
Dr. Hanscom has written quite a bit about these stress chemicals and addictive habits (food, alcohol etc) as being common factors for his pain patients. He takes a wholistic approach and suggesting everything is related.

 

[Some Guy]

Thanks very much for the reply.

I have read Dr.Hanscom's book.

I think what I'm asking is this - if it's TMS in origin, (Dr.Schubiner said that SFN is often TMS) wouldn't it be unwise to feed the beast so to speak?

 

[JennieToomey]

Likewise, we are thinking about overall heath here- emotional heath, metabolic health, physical condition and gut health. I would suggest thinking about small changes you can make in all areas, of course including emotional heath.

 

[Cactusflower]

Thanks very much for the reply.

I have read Dr.Hanscom's book.

I think what I'm asking is this - if it's TMS in origin, (Dr.Schubiner said that SFN is often TMS) wouldn't it be unwise to feed the beast so to speak?

I am not able to tell you chicken or egg. I’m not a Dr. nor a TMS professional, neither of whom are on this forum. If you feel you need that definitive answer, you’ll need to visit a TMS Dr.
What I don’t understand is why you think leading a healthy lifestyle is “feeding the beast”?
It is the normal way people show love and care for themselves and their bodies. You do it with the intention of self-care. If emotions like frustration or anger come up about not being able to do whatever it is - eat a cheeseburger and fries everyday for lunch, you deal with the anger. Eating that kind of food is actually what is “feeding the beast”. It’s a distraction - (I’m not suggesting this is your case, just using it as an example). It falls into what Dr. Hanscom would call addictive behavior - obsessional and a distraction from the reason we are unable to provide ourselves and our bodies good care.
From personal experience: when I found myself struggling to get my mind around something or worried about some TMS concept - it was always 100% distraction or TMS personality trait eg: legalism - feeling you have to follow everything to the letter, or perfectionism etc. (all of these are also distractions) so now I ask myself, “what’s underneath that”. Most often it’s not already being angry but the fear of getting angry about it, because anger is “ not acceptable” - that provides me with the opportunity to remind myself anger is normal, and sometimes we have to do stuff we don’t like and it’s ok to be pissed off about it but not always ok to avoid it.

 

[Some Guy]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.

If I have back pain, and then in an MRI they find a herniated disk, they say that's what's causing your back pain. You then take drugs, modify behaviour and hope it heals. OR, if that back pain is caused by TMS, then pills and modifying behaviour (taking anti-inflamatories, lying down, not pushing the back) would just reinforce the TMS and the pain continues, or at least that's my understanding of Sarno.

If I have nerve pain with no objective findings, and the only thing I can figure is metabolic syndrome, but then say - 'a-ha - that's it, I need to fix that to fix the pain!'

If however, much or all of the pain is TMS, then supplements, behaviour, strict diet for metabolic syndrome (like a herniated back ) would just reinforce the TMS daily by saying its a structural (or metabolic) cause, NOT a psychogenic cause. Keep in mind probably 1/3 or more of the adult population have metabolic syndrome yet relatively few get nerve issues, and it's not just about living healthy - I already do that (although could do better like most of us. I rarely east fast food, never drink pop or juice, etc....)

So as I see it - if it's metabolic in origin, then throwing the book at it may help, but if it's all or mostly TMS, then turning one's life around and doing things daily would just reinforce TMS would it not?

 

[Cactusflower]

You are not satisfied with any answer we give you and are essentially asking it over and over.
This is classic TMS-ing.
Once again your entire post is 100% rumination about the physical and 0 about your psychological state or stress.
I recommend you slowly and carefully re-read a book by Dr. Sarno and notice any identification you have to people he describes as having TMS.
Stop circling around the same topic over and over and make up your mind what you are going to choose to do and what path you are going to take.

 

[Some Guy]

ouch.

Still, thank you for taking the time to respond to so many people living with challenges. All the best.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

if it's metabolic in origin, then throwing the book at it may help, but if it's all or mostly TMS, then turning one's life around and doing things daily would just reinforce TMS would it not?

Well, I certainly can't answer your question - it's too convoluted for me, although I'll be damned if I can easily explain why I feel that way. I can't even determine whether you're overthinking, overintellectualizing, or just overcomplicating Dr Sarno's essential theory, which I personally find quite simple to understand.

What makes his theory so hard for some people to apply is, in many cases, a lack of self-compassion and self-love, and I have long suspected that self love requires, up front, being willing to treat our bodies with respect.

Just as our stress/survival response was not designed for the types of stress we face in the modern world, our physical bodies were not designed to sit on our asses and eat fake processed food and avoid the natural world. There is nothing about the modern world which is inherently healthy, and what used to be the miracle of modern medicine is finding itself overwhelmed by conditions that are caused by a disastrous combination of our rapidly growing mental distress and our increasingly unhealthy lifestyles.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a subset of people who don't achieve TMS success because they use unhealthy habits as distractions against emotional pain, and that in addition to repressing the emotional pain they are also repressing self-hatred for engaging in this behavior.

There is no clear dividing line. It's all connected, and it ends up being a vicious cycle of self-delusion and ever-worsening physical problems.

I base this on thirteen years of doing this work and observing participation here on this forum.

 

[Some Guy]

Thank you for the reply. I honestly don't understand the responses to what I thought was a simple question.

1 Of course we should all live healthy lifestyles. Again, everyone is low-key treating me like I'm some 400lbs man who eats cheeseburgers daily. Yeah I'm 225lbs, but I'm also 6'4" so not a small man. I don't drink often, rarely eat fast food, don't drink pop, and quite frankly look 'good' and 'healthy'. I do need to do more exercise and stress is way too high.

2. My question with respect was not convoluted. Simply, would taking supplements and doing EXTRA-healthy work (like eating strict diets that you would not otherwise do) that may help metabolic syndrome also encourage TMS - ie treating it like a structural thing? Not unlike someone with back pain may use a tilt table to stretch out his back. Sure the back guy should also walk and eat well, but would doing back work above and beyond the normal just feed TMS? My understanding of Sarno is that any activity that treats TMS like a structural issue will reinforce TMS - so the key is to NOT treat it like a structural issue because it isn't. Sarno didn't say - reduce stress and get exercise to calm the nervous system. He said TMS was your own body trying to help you by distracting you from difficult emotional issues, past or present.

As I mentioned in my initial post, I'll try to get my numbers better and go from there. I suspect that if it's TMS causing the pain then taking ALA etc. will just confirm TMS. Yes stress relief etc is a big part of improving numbers - Dr.Hanscom's program makes sense where he suggests it's about calming down the anxiety/anger/nervous system as part of getting healthy. I was more asking about the pure Sarno approach.

I'm sorry for upsetting folks on here. I thought I was polite and respectful.

Well, I certainly can't answer your question - it's too convoluted for me, although I'll be damned if I can easily explain why I feel that way. I can't even determine whether you're overthinking, overintellectualizing, or just overcomplicating Dr Sarno's essential theory, which I personally find quite simple to understand.

What makes his theory so hard for some people to apply is, in many cases, a lack of self-compassion and self-love, and I have long suspected that self love requires, up front, being willing to treat our bodies with respect.

Just as our stress/survival response was not designed for the types of stress we face in the modern world, our physical bodies were not designed to sit on our asses and eat fake processed food and avoid the natural world. There is nothing about the modern world which is inherently healthy, and what used to be the miracle of modern medicine is finding itself overwhelmed by conditions that are caused by a disastrous combination of our rapidly growing mental distress and our increasingly unhealthy lifestyles.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a subset of people who don't achieve TMS success because they use unhealthy habits as distractions against emotional pain, and that in addition to repressing the emotional pain they are also repressing self-hatred for engaging in this behavior.

There is no clear dividing line. It's all connected, and it ends up being a vicious cycle of self-delusion and ever-worsening physical problems.

I base this on thirteen years of doing this work and observing participation here on this forum.

 

[Cactusflower]

1) I'm not treating you like someone who has issues with alcohol or food - I mentioned it (and clarified) that I was being general, because most people who identify with metabolic issues have lifestyle issues. You didn't mention any of your specific "reason" for perhaps having metabolic issues.
2. My suggestion is that if you have difficulties figuring out what might work for you, is to consult with a dietician. Nobody here is a doctor or a dietician...or a TMS specialist for that matter. I think I mentioned that we can't give you the answers you want us to give you.

I am not upset or angry at you, I am being upfront and truthful.

Taking charge of your own health and decisions is empowering and that is part of overcoming TMS. Being unable to make a decision, being anxious and ruminating about it, and searching for specific answers to things that might not be able to be specifically answered are often qualities of at TMS mind. There are usually several posts a day here from people who ask these kinds of questions. Needing someone to give specific answers and/or tell you exactly what to do (when you probably have the answers because you've read the same books we have) is also very much part of a TMS personality. It's giving away your personal power to someone else to make decisions for you. I know, I've been there.

Sarno did not write specifically about people having physical illness AND having TMS. That doesn't mean none of his patients did, it just means that he did not specifically treat those patients for their illnesses - he only treated them for the TMS because he was in the rehab department and not longer a general physician.
He did say that stress via unconcious anger is the source of TMS - which is why people do the TMS work to relieve their inner stress.
I think your situation is not unusual at all eg. @JanAtheCPA credits her RA diagnoses to TMS and takes medications as directed by her Doctor and Dr. Schecter (who was trained by Sarno). I have thyroid disease which many people attribute to TMS - that may be the case (although it runs in my family) I had it treated and take medications because TMS work has not reversed the condition.
Does it feed the TMS beast? - no because I don't let it. I don't worry about it, I have inquired and it is not a source of anger or any other emotions most of the time (recently I gained a bit of weight after the Dr. adjusted my medications - I was angry about that, addressed it and am now addressing the weight gain and have had no increase in my pain symptoms.

Is this information enough for you to make a decision on how to proceed?

You can choose to tackle what has become your dilema a few ways (which, I've mentioned above). Consult a TMS doctor - you asked about someone specifically in tune with Sarno. Dr. Schected was trained by Sarno - his tactics might slightly vary but they were friends and colleagues for many years and there probably isn't anyone else who could give you the specific answers you want.

You could just deal with your medical issues and do the TMS work yourself at the same time - which may include adding someone in for support like a dietician or your medical Dr. etc. Part of the TMS work as Dr. Sarno outlined is to work on the psychological and emotional causes of stress and our mindset which is the work - he specifically mentions addressing three areas of our life and dealing with our internal stress around these issues.

I suspect that either of the two paths I mentioned above will essentially lead to the same outcome. Dr. Schecter will most likely be able to give you a very clear and concise "prescription" for how to proceed, since he is the professional.

Good Luck!

 

[JanAtheCPA]

eg. @JanAtheCPA credits her RA diagnoses to TMS and takes medications as directed by her Doctor and Dr. Schecter (who was trained by Sarno).

Indeed - and upon reading your response, @Some Guy, I was thinking about how to bring this up without spending too much time on it since I've written about it at length numerous times. I think what we're talking about is the known connection between emotional stress and inflammation.

I absolutely do "credit" (LOL - I'm not that tactful to myself) my RA to a short period of several extreme outside stressors in the spring of 2020 (the pandemic being just one) and Dr. Schecter and my rheumatologist have agreed with me. But now that I've got it, I have to protect myself against serious inflammatory damage as I try to deal with the stress aspect, so I take a basic dose methotrexate. My now-retired rheumatologist was happy with my response, and the new one considers me to be "in remission with medication" based on my lack of symptoms and my blood tests. I'd prefer to be in remission without medication and I suspect that if I meditated for more than 30 minutes every day I would be golden - but my TMS brain is extremely resistant and I guess I'm not desperate enough if I have no symptoms and no side effects from the medication. I do have flares, but every time, I have subdued them in less than 24 hours, by going back to good old emotional journaling. I have no doubt about the connection with emotional stress - but my three-month experiment last year (with permission) of reducing the medication by 25% did not work.

A bunch of us on the forum have had some interesting discussions about the role that stress plays in inflammation and particularly the role in the autoimmune conditions, which are still considered a mystery by the medical and scientific research community. Which, of course, is one of the key definitions of a TMS condition.

It is now easy to find a ton of corroborating information about the stress-inflammation connection online from very authoritative sources. Perhaps I should direct you to another post I made today which might be more on point with your questions - it's all about inflammation and its relationship to emotional stress and distress and repression: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/anxiety-disorder-or-tms.28598/#post-149906 (Anxiety Disorder or TMS?)

 

[Diana-M]

Hi @Some Guy
To answer you straight up in my opinion: No. I don’t think treating your cholesterol medically will hurt your TMS work in any way. BUT: staying stuck in that decision is a way to procrastinate the emotional work. And frankly, the emotional work is terrifying. It’s hard. We all try and squirm out of it. But unfortunately, it’s the answer.

The mind and body are SO connected. Did TMS cause your high cholesterol? Maybe. Probably. Do emotional issues cause people (not necessarily you) to overeat? Yes. It’s been proven. Sarno attributed high blood pressure to TMS and a bunch of other non-structural conditions.

I have a pretty severe case of TMS. I’ve had TMS for more than 30 years, on and off. I’ve been book healed of it. Then had it return. I’ve battled all sorts of TMS, won over time and now once again battling it. I’ve been on antidepressants and high blood pressure medicine for 30 years- since I was 35. I’ve been on thyroid medication for 20. I have high cholesterol and doctors want me on a statin to lower it. Do I think treating all these conditions is distracting my work to heal? Nope. I think sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do. I’m not going to let my blood pressure go through the roof while I journal about my rage.

that’s my 2 cents! Don’t worry. Just get to work and heal!

 

[Some Guy]

Thank you very much for the replies.

Looking back, I don't know if I was all that clear.

Of course good health, and lowering blood sugar and cholesterol are good things. I suppose where I was going is if focusing on those issues as the cause might detract from TMS work, or feed into TMS by thinking it's not mind body but metabolic.

Any which way, like folks have said getting good health and working on stressors is #1 and hopefully the rest will fall in line. My focus right now is getting more exercise daily and doing some mind-body stuff daily (journaling, meditation, etc...) and then going from there.

Thank you all again!