Mommy is Killing me.

[Baseball65]

I listened to a Podcast by Tim Dillon. I don't remember the guest, but he was some cultural commentary Guru. I remember what he said is THEE fundamental problem in Modern Western Society and I latched onto the idea. It reminded me of the people who like the alternative methods ALWAYS and never put their own feet to the Fire.

Too much "MOMMY Love".

Too Much Rainbows and Kittens

Not enough "Get you ass out there, you are a LOT stronger than even YOU know"

Which is "Dad Love.

Mommy Loves you unconditionally and here's a Hug and a cup of Hot cocoa. Just ignore the bad people and they will go away.
Dad Cares about your OUTCOME. Get your ass off the couch, stop whining about your problems and DO something!!!! And those Bad people? We're gonna sock them in the Jaw and then they'll stop bothering you.

Dad wants you to have a good OUTCOME not a good time. He wants you to have RESULTS, not comfort now.

I saw My Doctor last week. I had all but beaten a mild relapse, and after talking to her I had a couple of really bad days.
She is Really compassionate and Mommy-ish. In fact, the only reason I told her about my issue was SARNO's rule of 'ruling out a tumor' and the lumps on me look like tumors... They are not. But just talking about it, and the compassion triggered a minor relapse... the most pain I have felt in Months!!!

I can operate a Jackhammer, swing a sledge and manually pull out 100+ lb. chunks of concrete all day with no symptoms...but when my workday is over and Mommy wants to tell me: 'Its OK honey..just relax, you've worked Hard'....Ouch.
Washing dishes...Ouch.
folding Laundry... OUCH.
Doing Nothing...Ouch.

Knowing intellectually that you have TMS will NOT stop the symptoms except in a very few cases of new people having a 'pink cloud' reaction. Telling yourself you are 'OK' will NOT stop it. Meditating will not stop it. Mommy can't stop it. Only Dad can...and John Sarno was 100% DAD.

Pg. 145 of the Mindbody Prescription is Pg 77 of Healing Back Pain all over again.

"You must consciously think about repressed Rage......this is a Contest of Wills....you must focus on UNpleasant threatening thoughts." -J Sarno.

That's it. After you know you have this thing, all of these new strategy's sound like so much Mommy. Sarno laid it out and more than half the posts I read of people who are stuck never speak of RAGE or Forced unpleasant thoughts. This forum was founded on the work of John Sarno. That's what he taught. Anything else is superfluous. If you are wasting your time on the superfluous your stuck in Mommy's armchair. That is why you aren't getting better. Me too.
I am not lecturing from a privileged reference frame. I get this crap too, but Only Dad has ever made it go away.

 

[Cactusflower]

That post is completely full of misogynistic bullshit and filled with hate for women. I see this attitude fairly frequently by men on this forum, the same ones who whine about being unable to find female companionship.
I suspect I’ve hit the real nail on the head, as I tend to do, about the truth of the issue.

 

[louaci]

Yes it is true that nobody but yourself could put in the internal work to rid of TMS.

The question would be, do you give "mommy" love and "daddy" love to yourself, or do you give "daddy" love to others but not "mommy" love? Given "daddy" love only appears to be the sources of a lot of people's TMS...

Maybe the "mommy" love, the tenderness just triggers one's internal insecurity that one is not strong enough, one is not capable of solving one's problems? That insecurity usually is a result of being exposed to judgmental authorative figures/care takers from childhood, that one could only be accepted based on how they perform but not just being there alive on earth.

True unconditional love would support people without implying they are weak. People need support not because they are internally incapable. That is not the same as the culturally and socially conditioned "mommy" love, and women tend to get the blame.

 

[Baseball65]

Given "daddy" love only appears to be the sources of a lot of people's TMS...

Yep .Those are only pointers. They're just words. But My Inbox gets full of people asking me for help and the only thing I can do is point them back to the text....That seems to be getting lost in a flood of tears and feel goods.
Meditation, Biofeedback, Massage and so forth are all available at your local chronic pain center. I keep seeing them appear in Posts here.

I would say a good metaphor would be Paul-ism vs. Jesus-ism. Paul changed Christianity into a Belief system ; as long as you believed the right thing, you were OK. Whereas Jesus and his Brother James preached ACTION.
"I know this is TMS but it won't go away"
What are you doing about it?

the same ones who whine about being unable to find female companionship.

I assume you mean me? Find a post where I am whining about that. It doesn't exist. I have mentioned being Lonely, but that is only since the lockdown. I would say the Lionshare of my problem was BEACUSE I was in relationships....and felt lonelier. Most of the men I speak with share the same feeling, but are afraid to post about it. Because of responses like that. Misandry I believe is the word? It's everywhere...that's why Male suicides' are through the roof.

 

[louaci]

Yep Those are only pointers. They're just words. But My Inbox gets full of people asking me for help and the only thing I can do is point them back to the text....That seems to be getting lost in a flood of tears and feel goods.
Meditation, Biofeedback, Massage and so forth are all available at your local chronic pain center. I keep seeing them appear in Posts here.

I would say a good metaphor would be Paul-ism vs. Jesus-ism. Paul changed Christianity into a Belief system ; as long as you believed the right thing, you were OK. Whereas Jesus and his Brother James preached ACTION.
"I know this is TMS but it won't go away"
What are you doing about it?
I assume you mean me? Find a post where I am whining about that. It doesn't exist. I have mentioned being Lonely, but that is only since the lockdown. I would say the Lionshare of my problem was BEACUSE I was in relationships....and felt lonelier. Most of the men I speak with share the same feeling, but are afraid to post about it. Because of responses like that. Like I said...too much Mommy.

A lot of times men get burnout by perceiving women are weak and need to be taken care of. Women are pissed off by that perception too. Guess who created that perception? Those dominating males in history books who have created the civilization...

 

[Diana-M]

First off, @Baseball65 —sorry to hear you’re in pain again. But happy to hear tumors are ruled out!

There’s a couple issues going on in your post. One is the question of the purpose of this forum. Is it an Only Sarno place or a healing mind-body with whatever works best for each individual place? For some reason, pure Sarno people get angry at alternative methods. (I’m not sure why, because no one that I can tell is opposed to Sarno.) I don’t understand the animosity. Shouldn’t we all be pulling for each other?

Which brings me to point number two: Sarno methods alone just plain and simple don’t work for some people. Sarno himself even admitted to this, because he pre-screened for people it would work for and sent others off to psychotherapy (never promising they’d get better.)

I’ve never heard you mention anxiety as an issue for you—but for many of us it’s very much an issue. And meditation does actually help with that. As do other techniques. Anxiety can cause severe and even weird symptoms.

Sarno himself evolved in his opinions about what works over time. Why wouldn’t this knowledge still be evolving today? No one is saying one method is better than another, only that there are now proven other alternatives to chose from.

Back to your analogy—actually, a kid needs both kinds of love—Mommy and Daddy. I agree with you that sometimes, we need tough love. And sometimes we need finesse and tenderness toward ourselves. Finding that ideal combo is a challenge.

I’m not one who has shied away from painful truths. I have a very difficult history and I’ve faced it for decades in therapy. I’ve turned over more painful rocks than a person should ever have to live through. I’ve journaled with brutal honesty. I’m telling you—I ain’t you. It didn’t make my TMS go away. At least not this time.

The beauty of this forum, to me, is the combo of all the advice is extremely helpful. We need pure Sarno healers and other stories of healing.

You heal with your Daddy love methods, but your symptoms seem to return fairly often. Maybe you could actually benefit from a little Mommy love mixed in there. Just sayin’.

The trick for all of us is— or for me—I’ll just speak for myself—is we need hope. We need to see how others are making it out. And some people have made it out without Sarno. That’s a fact. Some have mixed Sarno with other methods. But whatever it takes—none of us here wants to waiver from the truth that this is a mind-body syndrome. Western medicine can’t help us. We can only help ourselves. And that takes a dedicated personal journey.

That said—as always —I appreciate your wisdom and perspective. It has really helped me quite a bit.

 

[Baseball65]

A lot of times men get burnout by perceiving women are weak and need to be taken care of. Women are pissed off by that perception too. Guess who created that perception? Those dominating males in history books who have created the civilization...

Yeah. That's not what this is about, but Now you have something for your Rage List, and that's to the good. That's why the new mentality is so destructive. No nuance.
Once again. I only posted this because of all of the Inbox requests I get that can be summarized quickly. AND I do NOT like the dialogue that has arisen on this forum about anything that did not come out of the Mouth or Pen of John Sarno. It has devolved into a list of feelgood Hippy BS that I went through long before I got suicidally depressed about pain.
But if that has touched a nerve with Y'all, then maybe we have a new thing to look at. So it's all good.

 

[backhand]

...Sarno laid it out and more than half the posts I read of people who are stuck never speak of RAGE or Forced unpleasant thoughts. This forum was founded on the work of John Sarno. That's what he taught. Anything else is superfluous. If you are wasting your time on the superfluous your stuck in Mommy's armchair. That is why you aren't getting better. Me too.
I am not lecturing from a privileged reference frame. I get this crap too, but Only Dad has ever made it go away.

Baseball65, I respect that, unselfishly as always, you express yourself authentically through your own personality and experience. In short, my personal takeaway from your post is that action is the best antidote to anxiety and all that goes with it.

 

[Diana-M]

Baseball65, I respect that, unselfishly as always, you express yourself authentically through your own personality and experience. In short, my personal takeaway from your post is that action is the best antidote to anxiety and all that goes with it.

Great summary, @backhand (and nice and short!) I have always loved @Baseball65 ’s authenticity and his unselfish dedication to being honest.

 

[Cactusflower]

That’s exactly what this is about. It’s exactly what you quoted above.
Your own inability to reconcile that might well be what gives YOU rage, @Baseball65

 

[homorobothead]

Self-compassion was the only thing that ever made the pain go away for me.

I spent a lifetime berating myself, continuing to lift weights, cruelly telling myself how I was a whiner and a piece of shit for feeling this "fake pain." Telling my brain to "shut the fuck up" just made me feel more contentious towards a body I felt had betrayed me since I started my first period at 9 years old.

The only thing that works for me and you may call "hippy BS" is biofeedback. Though it is backed up by tons of medical research, so it's hardly woo. Women are often very disconnected from their own bodies as a matter of course, especially because we deal with high rates of domestic and sexual abuse.

It's also much more taboo for us to express anger openly, just like it's more taboo for men to express sadness openly. Neither are just, and both cause inordinate suffering.

Like @Diana-M has already eloquently stated, there are many ways to address a problem. I think John Sarno is the OG and deserves much credit, but his particular style didn't work for me, while Alan Gordon's did. Why try and stop it about it if it works for others? You work in construction, from what I understand, so you understand the benefit of having many, many tools. I used to work at my uncle's contracting company in the summers and I learned the many different ways one can really use a flathead screwdriver. Many Coronas were opened that way.

Just a thought, maybe your pain kicks up at night because you aren't constantly in motion and your brain is creating problems because it's not used to stillness? They did a study once, where they asked people to sit for 15 minutes in a room with no distractions, and offered them the option to shock themselves painfully to reduce the amount of time they had to spend in the still, quiet room and 95% of participants shocked themselves rather than just sit quietly. One guy shocked himself 190 times!

Honestly, it takes a TON of discipline to just sit with oneself. I wouldn't say that Shaolin Monks, Sikh warriors, or Sunmudo practitioners are practicing "hippy BS," by cultivating a quiet practice and going inward.

Also, as an aside, I don't think anyone here is being misandrist. I think you made some women mad, but that means that they are mad at YOU. ONE man. And they got mad because you made some generalizations about women. I doubt any of us are mad at Michael Buble or Sting or Adam Driver or Dr. Sarno or the mailman or that really nice guy at the deli counter (love that guy - he is always hooking me up with the good turkey).

I was cared for deeply by all the men at my uncle's contracting company (never was there a safer 16 year old girl) and am married to a Marine Corps vet who is stereotypically masculine in many ways. What sets these men apart is that they choose to take responsibilty for their own suffering and took action, while not blaming or hurting anyone else, all the while taking on a protective role. The men who hurt me the most in my life are the ones who decided that others were resposible for their pain, and used that as an excuse to injure someone vulnerable.

Also, the reason your physician might be giving you what you term "Mommy Love" is because the research shows that on average patients heal nearly 50% faster when a physician shows warmth and care. They are teaching medical students this right now in medical school. They did a study at Stanford where they gave patients an underskin injection of a histamine and divided them into three groups, a control with no physician intervention, one group with a physician who checked in regularly and showed demonstrable warmth, and one group where the physician was actively cold. The group that received warmth and care were able to recover from an allergic reaction in 3 minutes, while the control recovered in 6 minutes, and the mean physician group recovered in 10 minutes. Doctors work on averages, so your physician likely saw these studies and is implementing best practices per research.

I think these discussions and debates are really important

 

[Diana-M]

I think these discussions and debates are really important

I agree! Thank you for sharing your story too! It makes me feel better because sometimes I feel like I’m getting nowhere.

This conversation has had me thinking all night. First of all, I was upset that there’s “a fight going on,” on the forum. I’m such a delicate soul I hate to see any contention among people I care about— or among any people! (the world seems so full of fighting these days.) But that’s life and that’s people when you get them together. Nobody’s going to always agree.

Funny thing: I told my husband about “the fight,” just outlining the different perspectives. He’s a blue collar guy turned white collar out of necessity. A toughie, but also very sensitive and very much a “girlfriend” when you need him to be. He listened to the whole thing and said that he agreed with @Baseball65 ‘s perspective to “get your butt out there” even if it hurts. I said, “Really?” He said, “Absolutely.” This whole conversation made me think hard about how men and women do things. We really do see things differently and confront things in different ways. I don’t think that’s such a bad thing.

I did want to say one thing about the latest “hippy BS,”which I’m trying. It’s a TMS healing app by Dr. David Hanscom, a back surgeon. He had TMS for 15 years and nothing was taking away his pain. Then he studied about neuroplasticity and other things and devised a program called the DOC journey. He was able to completely heal himself and is now devoted to helping other people. His premise is all about reducing adrenaline through expressing anger, recognizing it, and then forgiving. He says the continued anger keeps your adrenaline going and causes pain. He’s also big on other methods that create new pain-free channels in your brain that eventually your brain switches over to from the dominant pain channels.

I figured it was worth a shot. Nothing else is working so far for me. The app takes about three months to go through. But what gets the most attention from me is that Dr. Hanscom has a childhood ACE score of 4. And mine is 6. I haven’t heard of anyone with such a high score healing and that gives me a lot of hope. Deep in my heart, for me personally, I think it’s going to take many different methods combined for me to get better. I hope it doesn’t take me 13 years like Dan Buglio! (I’m not sure if I have 13 years left!)

But no matter how depressed I get or how discouraged… I keep fighting on. And this forum is huge for me! I love everybody on here and especially the die hards. ( You know who you are! ) I truly believe that all the gurus on here would not spend the time they do if they weren’t interested in saving people from TMS. I think it’s good to assume everyone has the best of intentions on here. But that’s just me. I’m somewhat of a Pollyanna!

 

[homorobothead]

Aw @Diane-M,

Pollyannas are wildly underappreciated! I really value your opinion and insights.

Have you ever seen "Everything Everywhere All At Once?" It's a kung fu movie about a middle aged woman coming to terms with some painful relationships truths (wild huh?). It has a sweet underlying message that she has been fighting people who weren't her enemies the whole time, but when she changes her strategy to cooperation instead of constant head-butting, she is able to connect and repair, instead of being at constant odds. You remind me of that. You're doing secret kung fu!

I'm actually a big "get your butt out there even if it hurts" kind of girl, but that's because I was raised on a cattle farm and there was no other option than to get your butt out there. Cows gotta eat. Poop must be shoveled. So, I totally get the nature of the original post.

Thank you for the Hascom healing app suggestion. I can't wait to check it out. It sounds like a very valuable tool for my toolkit.

I appreciate every, single diehard on here. Even the ones I might have a disagreement with. If we agreed on everything, all the time, the world would be very boring indeed.

 

[Diana-M]

You remind me of that. You're doing secret kung fu!

lol! I like it! I’ll check it out!

 

[Ellen]

But what gets the most attention from me is that Dr. Hanscom has a childhood ACE score of 4. And mine is 6. I haven’t heard of anyone with such a high score healing and that gives me a lot of hope.

FYI: I have an ACE score of 6 and I recovered from TMS 12 years ago. It took me around 18 months with a mostly Sarno/Schubiner approach. Yes, I've had frequent relapses over the years, but have always been able to get back to recovery fairly quickly once I admit it is TMS. I still have a lot of issues that I've had to work on due to my traumatic childhood, but I believe that is a separate process than TMS recovery. At least that is how I've experienced it.

Just wanted to drop in to make this point, which I know I've made before on the Forum.

 

[Diana-M]

FYI: I have an ACE score of 6 and I recovered from TMS 12 years ago. It took me around 18 months with a mostly Sarno/Schubiner approach. Yes, I've had frequent relapses over the years, but have always been able to get back to recovery fairly quickly once I admit it is TMS. I still have a lot of issues that I've had to work on due to my traumatic childhood, but I believe that is a separate process than TMS recovery. At least that is how I've experienced it.

Just wanted to drop in to make this point, which I know I've made before on the Forum.

@Ellen ,
Thank you so much for letting me know this. I hadn’t seen your post before mentioning it, but I’m very glad to have this information. Even without this you were always a great example to me; now I’m even more inspired!

 

[Baseball65]

FYI: I have an ACE score of 6 and I recovered from TMS 12 years ago.

I was curious so took it..I think I had a 6 before, but I didn't read some of the questions closely.
"Was someone in your house in Jail?" I answered No the first time....there was someone in Jail....ME!
anyways, I took it again and got an 8. I don't think it matters as to the results of who will and won't get better. Maybe I was easier to convince it was repressed Rage cause I had 'some' self awareness because of the 12 steps....but all of that self-awareness didn't keep me from getting TMS.
However, being a thorough reader helped me GET rid of TMS.
I was re-reading MindBody... Virtually everything I integrate into this forum is in that last chapter. (Pg 139 forward) Maybe the book could have been edited better, but Sarno is crystal clear about that need for challenging the pain while focusing on your ANGER and even says if you can't feel any, than challenge yourself while your Thinking about what you might not be feeling. In fact, he had a better economy of words than this post!

I have almost vomited from the pain .....I have felt overwhelmed. I have come home and cried in private, and then...went out and did it again.....and again. and it went away. In fact the ONLY time Sarno says to 'take it easy' are for people in the first few weeks back when he was doing in person lectures, adding that NOT a single case he could recall was anybody harmed by pushing too hard too early.

 

[Diana-M]

I took it again and got an 8

Encouraging! (Sorry about your score) but encouraging to have another example of a high-score person heal.

I was re-reading MindBody... Virtually everything I integrate into this forum is in that last chapter. (Pg 139 forward)

I am hearing you. I really am. I believe you. I don’t know why I’m still failing. I’m also confused where adrenaline comes in. I can feel it surging away and then I feel worse. Also, scenarios in my life are so tough. Therr are some incredibly difficult circumstances that require me to be exposed to things that cause rage. Big ongoing rage. Like one little example: do I write off my son because he causes me so much pain and then also not see my grandkids? it seems like you really need to turn off the fire hose (source of rage ) before you can get the rage to stop, right? What about this question? My son might be mentally ill and it’s not his fault he’s mean. Am I guilty if I abandon him? Rage, confusion, guilt, guilt, rage, more rage, rage at myself, rage at the world. I mean it’s bottomless. And that’s only one of my problems.

I have almost vomited from the pain .....I have felt overwhelmed. I have come home and cried in private, and then...went out and did it again..

Very brave, very tough! I don’t know if I’m this brave, but I know that I’m gonna have to get there really soon or I’m going to be stuck in my house and maybe die from no real physical activity and no life.

In my past TMS incidents (before I knew about Sarno), I would have an unbearable work situation—it would end somehow—and the TMS would go away over time. (This supports my fire hose theory. Have to turn off the source of rage.) Another time, I completely healed from very severe panic attacks by meditating every day for a year. (This supports the turn off adrenaline theory.)

My question is: are these methods mutually exclusive? Some people have combined them. I was really curious about trying the neuroplasticity route with the DOC app. It does seem you need to focus, when you do this route, exclusively on soothing your adrenaline and making new channels in your brain that are happy, i.e. not focusing on anger. Embracing forgiveness.

Either way, I would give my right arm to get better. (what’s left of it. ) … if you don’t laugh, you’ll cry.

 

[Baseball65]

My son might be mentally ill and it’s not his fault he’s mean.

Too much to address in one cohesive response, but let's just take this one right here, because it's something I am familiar with. It also ties into the OG theme of this post.

The DSM used to have like 50 pages...now it's hundreds. Bipolar, Borderline, Narcissistic, PTSD, Seasonal affective disorder, Attachment disorder, yada ca dida cadada for ever and ever Amen.

Let's just shorten that list to "He's a Dick". I assume he's an adult? Discovering WHY he's a dick is not going to undo it.

Your very perceptive in that you realize that you might lose access to your grandkids. That was what Sarno meant when he said "Secretly, we fear retaliation" . Raising your awareness of THAT and being able to consciously focus on THAT while you are having symptoms IS the therapy...and you have to be able to GET angry about That in your own way. And keep focusing on how unfair that is. And in the real world? Stop being nice to him when he's a dick.

I have invisible TMS ropes pulling me from BOTH of my sons. But the one who is a 'nice guy' is actually the more subtler of the two. The one who is like me (Vain arrogant, hyper, pushy) is easy to figure out what I am pissed about. He is the first one I think of when I feel a twinge
But my 'Good son'..... I realized that his subtle questioning of me on Jobs is at the root of a lot of my anger. We work together and he is Nice to clients at MY expense. I do all of the nasty phsyical, crawling under buildings and digging holes and mixing concrete...he gets to Build cabinets and do all of the 'pretty's'

I caught it Last night. I turned in a material list from a Job with hours from the workers. It was over the initial estimate by a day of work and 600 pounds of concrete...I had told him this as the job progressed. Normally I would have tried to RE-explain myself, argue my real world adversities digging out that foundation...and as I caught myself, I literally said "F -you" (to myself of course). It took what it took and if you don't like it , suck eggs. Stop being a Dick"

As I was able to stay Mad at him the thing that was longing for my attention disappeared.

That's it. The closer we are to someone the Harder it is, but it's always there.

Sarno said "When it comes out of nowhere, look really close" and then immediately went into family dynamics.

 

[Diana-M]

@Baseball65 ,

Thanks for the advice(very helpful and clarifying!) And for the personal examples from your own life. These are the best teaching tools. Better than any general advice. Easier to see.

But my 'Good son'..... I realized that his subtle questioning of me on Jobs is at the root of a lot of my anger. We work together and he is Nice to clients at MY expense. I do all of the nasty phsyical, crawling under buildings and digging holes and mixing concrete...he gets to Build cabinets and do all of the 'pretty's'

this would make me mad, for sure! And maybe the underlying reasons as to WHY you are stuck with the grunt work. I have a “good” son, too. He’s very kind and patient toward me. But he does do some subtle hurtful things that I don’t even like to admit to myself. Because then, I don’t have any “good” sons! (And I feel more abandoned.)

As I was able to stay Mad at him the thing that was longing for my attention disappeared.

Love this story!

Secretly, we fear retaliation" . Raising your awareness of THAT and being able to consciously focus on THAT while you are having symptoms IS the therapy...and you have to be able to GET angry about That in your own way. And keep focusing on how unfair that is.

This is the crux of it right here. I’m going to focus on this!

And in the real world? Stop being nice to him when he's a dick.

Ha! Yes! Seems like that would be obvious. (But then again, if it were clear to me, I might be in a lot better shape than I am.)