Im a little confused about Rotator Cuff injuries and TMS:

avik

avik

Well known member
If small tears in the rotator are indeed TMS and, I (for example) should continue to lift weight in the gym and not do all the little adjustments that most PTs offer, what then is a "full rotator tear", where the muscle is torn completely off the bone?

Isnt that the end result of continuing to work with a shoulder that has a small tear in it?

I was diagnosed with slight labral and slight rotator cuffs tears in my right shoulder over the summer but have been taking the TMS approach over the past month or so with decent results. I guess the creeping doubt of potentially causing a "full tear" is preventing my ability to full eradicate the pain.
 
FredAmir said:
Stop worrying about it and keep working out. Terms like "tear" maybe scary but in reality it is just a normal change.
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Fred-I appreciate the response but that doesnt really answer my question.
A full tear definitively requires surgery. That is not TMS...the muscle tears off the bone.
I was under the impression that a "slight" tear can turn into a "full tear".

How then do we differentiate one from the other?
 
This sort of injury has me confused. I can certainly see how many symptoms can have a mind/body correlation. This makes perfect sense to me. But, something like an injury where you feel pain such as a rotator cuff doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't a situation like this require actual physical healing; maybe heat, physiotherapy or what ever is needed? It seems different to me than a source of pain that has been thoroughly checked out by a doctor and no cause can be found.

I had a rotator cuff issue a few years ago and the more I strained it the worse it got. It needed time to heal.
 
Just like a RUPTURED disc (sounds so scary) torn rotator cuff is simply a horrible sounding label given to a normal structural change.

It is not torn because it was damaged the same way that the disc was not RUPTURED because it was damaged.

Don't let these labels detract you from the real source of pain: tension.

I will explain more about these terms in the free Rapid Recovery workshop next month. See below for more details.
 
Dr. Sarno said, "If it's too heavy to lift, you couldn't lift it." I agree with him. I've done my fair share of lifting in the gym, used to be able to bench 235, and hit about ten million tennis serves since then and no "tears". Avik, who's doing the dx'ing of the "tears" on you, a standard issue white-coat or a TMS physician?
 
Tennis Tom said:
Dr. Sarno said, "If it's too heavy to lift, you couldn't lift it." I agree with him. I've done my fair share of lifting in the gym, used to be able to bench 235, and hit about ten million tennis serves since then and no "tears". Avik, who's doing the dx'ing of the "tears" on you, a standard issue white-coat or a TMS physician?
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Tom-

I had an MRI done so the technician, my Osteopath and then my PT guy.

In all honesty, I have already started dealing with this thing form a TMS approach a month ago and I have started to see some results.

That said, I plainly dont understand how this works.
A small tear must precede a "full" tear.
A full tear is a real, no-joke injury that plagues bodybuilders, athletes, etc.

If the former is just a fact of life and a product of old age (much like herniated discs), then what precedes a full tear??
 
Avik, I don't mean to sound like a broken record and I've asked you before, why aren't you seeing a TMS physician like Dr. Rashbaum, who you've seen before? Your dx's are coming from a conventional medicine perspective, that only looks for structural evidence for injury--while quietly recognizing that some patients are "mental".

You are maybe attempting to understand something that doesn't exist and is TMS. Quoting Fred Amir, "Unless you fell off a horse or was in a car accident, it's TMS.'' A TMS nonexistent "tear" is not going to turn into a muscle tearing off a bone--I'm only a tennis player but I can't visualize how a muscle can be "torn off a bone" without using some mechanical pulling device--have you ever tried pulling an abalone off a rock, that's what I would compare it to.

I recall in my running days (13 marathons), people were being dx'ed with "stress fractures" or shin splints. I now realize this was likely all TMS, invented by physios to come up with an explanation for the new epidemic of runners pains. They have a vested interest in propagating these dx's because that's how they make their living. Most "injuries" will heal in a couple of weeks on there own.

If you believe in TMS why do you need to "have" an osteopath and a" PT guy"?
 
Tennis Tom said:
Avik, I don't mean to sound like a broken record and I've asked you before, why aren't you seeing a TMS physician like Dr. Rashbaum, who you've seen before? Your dx's are coming from a conventional medicine perspective, that only looks for structural evidence for injury--while quietly recognizing that some patients are "mental".

You are maybe attempting to understand something that doesn't exist and is TMS. Quoting Fred Amir, "Unless you fell off a horse or was in a car accident, it's TMS.'' A TMS nonexistent "tear" is not going to turn into a muscle tearing off a bone--I'm only a tennis player but I can't visualize how a muscle can be "torn off a bone" without using some mechanical pulling device--have you ever tried pulling an abalone off a rock, that's what I would compare it to.

I recall in my running days (13 marathons), people were being dx'ed with "stress fractures" or shin splints. I now realize this was likely all TMS, invented by physios to come up with an explanation for the new epidemic of runners pains. They have a vested interest in propagating these dx's because that's how they make their living. Most "injuries" will heal in a couple of weeks on there own.

If you believe in TMS why do you need to "have" an osteopath and a" PT guy"?
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Tom-working on the Rashbaum appt.

I think its dangerous to just subscribe to that everything is TMS, unless you get hit by a truck.
I am open to all of this, but Tom, a full tendon tear (yes, torn completely off the bone) is not only possible but its a well known injury.
Now whether or not this is a normal function of getting old...im not sure of yet. Are you?

You say that "I am attempting to understand something that doesnt exist".
Are you sure this doesnt exist?
Thats a pretty bold statement.
 
Rashbaum or a TMS physician would be my first priority, I guess now that we have single payer health care it's harder to get in to your doctor of choice.

I AM OLD and don't know of anyone who's had what you describe. I've done lots of manual labor, dangerous jobs, painted elevator shafts, hung over 8 story buildings to paint cornices, been chased down a flight of stairs by a run-away refrigerator, etc., etc. I've worked out with weights in high school, college, and afterwards. Presently hit millions of tennis balls annually and swim everyday. I don't know anyone who has said their muscle tore off the bone. I'm not saying it can't happen but I think it would be due to an accident trauma like falling off a pitched roof like my carpenter did and he fully recovered within due course and was back on the job.

I've experienced most every sports injury from sprained ankles to a lame brain (a TMS symptom), what you describe to me doesn't sound like something you can get in a gym. I stand by what Dr. Sarno says, "If it's too heavy to lift, you wouldn't be able to lift it."

We're beating on a dead-horse, so that's all I'm going to say on the topic, BUT, I'm anxious to hear what Dr. Rashbaum has to say. I guess things have changed at NYU Rusk since the Good Doctor has retired, in the good ol' days people who were his patients reported Dr. Sarno getting back to them promptly, usually with the reassurance that it was TMS and they went on their merry way--but he was a GENIUS!

Good luck!
tt
 
Tennis Tom said:
Rashbaum or a TMS physician would be my first priority, I guess now that we have single payer health care it's harder to get in to your doctor of choice.

I AM OLD and don't know of anyone who's had what you describe. I've done lots of manual labor, dangerous jobs, painted elevator shafts, hung over 8 story buildings to paint cornices, been chased down a flight of stairs by a run-away refrigerator, etc., etc. I've worked out with weights in high school, college, and afterwards. Presently hit millions of tennis balls annually and swim everyday. I don't know anyone who has said their muscle tore off the bone. I'm not saying it can't happen but I think it would be due to an accident trauma like falling off a pitched roof like my carpenter did and he fully recovered within due course and was back on the job.

I've experienced most every sports injury from sprained ankles to a lame brain (a TMS symptom), what you describe to me doesn't sound like something you can get in a gym. I stand by what Dr. Sarno says, "If it's too heavy to lift, you wouldn't be able to lift it."

We're beating on a dead-horse, so that's all I'm going to say on the topic, BUT, I'm anxious to hear what Dr. Rashbaum has to say. I guess things have changed at NYU Rusk since the Good Doctor has retired, in the good ol' days people who were his patients reported Dr. Sarno getting back to them promptly, usually with the reassurance that it was TMS and they went on their merry way--but he was a GENIUS!

Good luck!
tt
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Thanks for your thoughts.
Will certainly report back with his feedback.
 
An afterthought, your structural question on what the causality may be would probably be better answered at a forum more geared to that line of thinking, like a weight-lifting/body-building forum. I can't guide you to one, but I'm sure they exist, you can find a forum for anything on the internet.

G'luck!
tt
 
Hi everyone,

I have the same issue with my right shoulder.
It gets irritated with each movement involving strength in the biceps, triceps or the own shoulder.
Even typing, and sleeping over it.

I have had PT and Hialuronic acid infiltrations, but it is still the same. PH helps but it only gives temporary relief. The tension and inflammation is always there after 24h, even if not doing exercises.

I have tried to treat it as TMS but it is just harder that it was with the back. I am waiting to have an MRI and see if there is any damage so hopefully it will bring light to the diagnosis.

Best,
Sienna
 
a wise man once told me to stop worry about my shoulder pain. He told me try to search for anyone who have die, permanent disable/paralyze due to Rotator Cuff injuries. I did tried and I also asked my doctor. We couldn't find anyone. Rotator Cuff is just like "slipped disc", if you randomly pull 100 person off the street and make them take MRI, 50% will have "tear" and "slipped" without feeling ANY pain. Those that did feel pain also have anxiety/panic or other tms symptoms, always.
This is one of the biggest huddle we have to overcome. We will never sure if it is structural or mind-body. Some will take the leap of faith and go tms 100%. Some will try conventional for a long while until they exhaust every option and suffer for years before they will try tms. Some will try both at the same time, the middle way.
I often tell people to take the middle way if they have doubt. Treat it with conventional medicine, just never ever FEAR your symptoms. And remember to really LIVE your life. Fuc k tms, fuc k rotator cuff, I'm going to enjoy my life first. I'm not letting this little issue prevent me from enjoying my life.
 
balto said:
a wise man once told me to stop worry about my shoulder pain. He told me try to search for anyone who have die, permanent disable/paralyze due to Rotator Cuff injuries. I did tried and I also asked my doctor. We couldn't find anyone. Rotator Cuff is just like "slipped disc", if you randomly pull 100 person off the street and make them take MRI, 50% will have "tear" and "slipped" without feeling ANY pain. Those that did feel pain also have anxiety/panic or other tms symptoms, always.
This is one of the biggest huddle we have to overcome. We will never sure if it is structural or mind-body. Some will take the leap of faith and go tms 100%. Some will try conventional for a long while until they exhaust every option and suffer for years before they will try tms. Some will try both at the same time, the middle way.
I often tell people to take the middle way if they have doubt. Treat it with conventional medicine, just never ever FEAR your symptoms. And remember to really LIVE your life. Fuc k tms, fuc k rotator cuff, I'm going to enjoy my life first. I'm not letting this little issue prevent me from enjoying my life.
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As always Balto...great advice.
Afetr hearing what Fred, Tom and you have to say, I am definitely willing to believe that a "tear" is just another eventuality of aging and not the source of any chronic shoulder pain.
I hope to see a TMS doc soon to confirm this.

regardless however, I have completely ignored the pain and am treating it like any other TMS equivalent, with strong results.
I told it to go F itself yesterday by doing a long and HARD shoulder workout in the gym :)
 
Thank you Balto,
I have also tried not to fear it, ignore the first symptoms, etc...

But what if that affects you to your daily life? lifting things, typing at work, doing something so soft as just writing with a pen for a long period. Shoulder gets sore and worse thing is that it creates tension in neck too.

When lifting my arm up and back, it actually does not move smoothly and there is some "cracking sound" in the cuff rotator area...

Thanks again


balto said:
a wise man once told me to stop worry about my shoulder pain. He told me try to search for anyone who have die, permanent disable/paralyze due to Rotator Cuff injuries. I did tried and I also asked my doctor. We couldn't find anyone. Rotator Cuff is just like "slipped disc", if you randomly pull 100 person off the street and make them take MRI, 50% will have "tear" and "slipped" without feeling ANY pain. Those that did feel pain also have anxiety/panic or other tms symptoms, always.
This is one of the biggest huddle we have to overcome. We will never sure if it is structural or mind-body. Some will take the leap of faith and go tms 100%. Some will try conventional for a long while until they exhaust every option and suffer for years before they will try tms. Some will try both at the same time, the middle way.
I often tell people to take the middle way if they have doubt. Treat it with conventional medicine, just never ever FEAR your symptoms. And remember to really LIVE your life. Fuc k tms, fuc k rotator cuff, I'm going to enjoy my life first. I'm not letting this little issue prevent me from enjoying my life.
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avik said:
regardless however, I have completely ignored the pain
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Never try to "ignore the pain" Avik. It is impossible to do. It is a myth that one can ignore the pain. It is there and it hurt like hell, how can one ignore it?
What you want to do is not fear it. Tell yourself whatever happen, happen. Be an observer. Observe it but do not react to it physically or mentally. It is part of life. Look at it like a small pimple on your face. You don't like to have it but you don't worry about it. The goal it you don't fear it and you have better things to do than worry about it.
 
Sienna said:
Thank you Balto,
But what if that affects you to your daily life? lifting things, typing at work, doing something so soft as just writing with a pen for a long period. Shoulder gets sore and worse thing is that it creates tension in neck too.
Click to expand...

Sienna-

It WILL affect your daily life because that is its goal.
Ask yourself this "Is this pain causing me to focus on it all day? Am I distracted from other things in my life? Is it requiring that I adjust my day around it, so that it has my complete attention"?

TMS in incredibly crafty and keeping you engaged.

have you read any of Sarnos books yet?
 
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