How far we have gotten from Sarno

[Baseball65]

"Throughout your day, pause occasionally and check in with your body.
Notice if you are holding tension or feeling pain." -an 'alleged' TMS Guru

are u F-ing kidding me?

When My son was in High School he went to Vanderbilt University's math and science program. He got to work with Phd candidates and Phd's on their projects. Quite a variety of them.
One of the research projects was all about memory. How we remember things, why we remember things, etc.
One of the assertations made by their findings was:

"When we remember something, we are not remembering the original event, but the last time we thought about the event" (or 'remembered' it)

So, in that case we are actually playing a game of 'Telephone' with ourselves. Think about something a lot and you are making it into a bigger deal, giving it more importance. Sarno had 12 reminders...NONE of them was paying attention to your body. He also said 'don't make it into a ritual'

I pay attention to who says what on this forum, what's going on with them and so forth. Y'all know I have no use for any other writer but Sarno.
It's stuff like that piece I just quoted from Ozanich. What a foolish instruction.
Sarno would say "If we are in any way preoccupied with the symptoms they will continue"
So....'somatic tracking' ? You're pouring fire on a dying flame 'checking in with your symptoms'? Once again the same thing

When I was in the chronic pain care center, from which NO one ever graduated, all of the "Modern TMS Guru" crap was in full effect. No one ever got free of that place either. Once upon a time my Sponsor told me that there was freedom in trying something that doesn't work....You don't have to waste anymore time with it.

Meditation, talking about your feelings and writing about them, doing exercise but STOPPING if it got painful, taking it easy, checking in with your pain . Doesn't anybody here remember those dumb pictographs of a human where we were supposed to draw our pain and give it a number?

Going back to my son's memory project, That is reminding yourself every day that there is something to be concerned about.... IF you have TMS that is a wasted moment and the dumbest thing I could think of to suggest. I often come home with Bruises and cuts on myself and can't remember when I got them because After thoroughly ingesting Sarno, I don't pay much attention to my body. A small price to pay for a life of complete liberation. I was standing on a park bench last month. It disintegrated from dry rot and I fell all the way though. I still have bruises all over my legs, but when it happened and I fell the thing I 'remembered' to say was "There is nothing wrong with me...I am strong and accidents don't cause pain"...and it didn't. I only notice the bruises in the shower. I was somebody who used to think that every single twinge meant doom.....and then I read Sarno. It changed me .

I used to wince and feel a sense of impending doom from every little gossamer. Fear. Loneliness. "Oh crap...what's that?"
That instruction to check in with your body is like telling a person with OCD they 'missed a spot of germs'

I have been pain free (with a couple of relapses of a few days) for 26 years. When I do get an issue and go back to the SARNO book, I begin again with what SARNO teaches. I always get better in 0-72 hours of IGNORING all signs from my body. I make a strong effort to say "F U" to the TMS when I catch myself paying any attention to it. Following SARNO's instruction, when I do catch myself paying attention to it, I forcefully and consciously turn my attention to a conscious rage or source of irritation.

Then: All of a sudden I notice it's gone. Then I laugh for joy. "It worked again!!!"

I write...about possible ANGER I am feeling and maybe not feeling . I imagine....Rage that can't come to the surface. I protest....by doing every activity the fake 'injury' implies I can't. I Scream, I rant , I rave....and I pray. But I do not ever pay attention to what my body is doing. That is what the TMS WANTS me to do...that is how the distraction works! Pain is plenty good at making me 'check in with my body'...Recovery from TMS means a complete lack of concern. No 'Physicophobia' as Sarno coined the term.

If you ditch all of these secondary writers and read SARNO, you will have all of the instruction you need. You will heal and right soon.
Gordon , Schubiner, Sachs and Ozanich could have been counselors at the Chronic pain center, but I notice people who are their disciples don't seem to get free in the 2-6 weeks Sarno projected. Just like the pain center. One of them charges a subscription fee. Why would I need a subscription if I am going to get better in a few weeks??? doh

"Outcome independence" I want an outcome! I came here to get rid of Pain because it's ruining my life. If outcome didn't motivate me I would have stayed in the Chronic pain center. I wasn't getting any better there either. Read Sarno. You will have a positive outcome...but you better delete all of that Bullshit that these Guru's are trying to fill your head with, This is NOT a Buffet.

Sarno said "Therapeutic Eclecticism equals diagnostic incompetence"....that means when you get a bunch of different instructions, they didn't understand the underlying problem. It is about Rage. Not my Rage. YOUR rage. You better start hunting....or you can try a new guru every month for $$$$ and post about how it is sort of working.....n't.

Read Sarno. Read it again. and again.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I always saw things like meditation, journalling, somatic tracking as things to develop skills so people are not so in the thralls of their symptoms, so at their mercy, so they can make conscious decisions about where to direct their thoughts and actions. Maybe I misunderstand. I think lots of people who reach a point where they’re searching for solutions outside the modern medical model are in such a dark place, such a state of panic, and many have lost total faith and belief in themselves and their body. They have no foundation to be able to healthily engage in things that bring pain and the subsequent fear.

I credit Sarno with getting me my life back, not that I am pain free…yet, but he started me on this path and everyday I try to utilize what he taught. But there do seem to be many who find success with people who ‘expanded’ on Sarno’s ideas like Nicole Sachs or Dan Buglio, they each have dozens of success stories floating around the internet. If we are to only take from the original source shouldn’t Freud be the center of discussion in this forum? Sarno himself was heavily influenced by Freud and synthesized his theories and related them to chronic health issues. And then Freud himself had people who influenced him. We are all standing on the shoulders of those who came before us, for better or worse.

 

[Ellen]

"Throughout your day, pause occasionally and check in with your body.
Notice if you are holding tension or feeling pain." -an 'alleged' TMS Guru

I'm not a TMS expert in any sense so am not qualified to debate aspects of TMS theory. I did recover fully from TMS and so can draw on my own experience of what I did and what the process was like for me. But it's been over 10 years since my initial recovery so my memory is a little fuzzy. Also, in addition to "pure Sarno" I did some other things that are not outlined in his books. It's impossible to say precisely what within the mix of things I did was effective and what was unnecessary.

That in mind, I did have this experience: After experiencing the Sarno "book cure", my symptoms did return despite the emotional work I was doing. I began to become consciously aware of tensing most of my muscles. I think this was a habit rather than a primary reaction to an unconscious emotional issue. Once aware of the tension, I could purposely relax my body. Eventually, the habit abated. So for me, checking in with my body occasionally was helpful and played a part in my recovery.

 

[Sita]

I was like Ellen, used to be tense in my legs. Especially while driving or in the car as a passenger. Checking my body once in a while while being in the car was useful. That was the only time when I was doing it.

I'm with @Baseball65 regarding NOT thinking and not paying attention to the pain. AT ALL and never. That's what Dr. Hanscome wrote in his book "Back in Control". He also suggests patients to NEVER talk about their pain with anyone, not even their husbands or wives or other relatives at home. Never. My husband doesn't quite understand this point but I do my best to never mention my pain at home. Ever.

It works great for me. What's in your conscious mind - the focus you put on something - it's going to remain in your mind and you'll get obsessed about it. I have OCD as many here so I really do my best to follow this idea.

I understand that people are different, I get it. Some tools are helpful for some people and could be detrimental to others. And so on.

 

[Rabscuttle]

Not really. He credited that to a coworker. In fact, he mentions in all of the literature that he is NOT well versed in Freud. Only that it worked.

a lot of what Sarno writes about lines up with what Freud theorized, whether he reached that conclusion on his own or through inspiration I don’t know. It’s been a few months since I read MBP but I think there were a few mentions of Freud, there are even quite a few articles floating around how Sarno’s ideas relate to Freud.

“It is appropriate to designate Freud as the grandfather of psychosomatic medicine since his genius introduced us to the world of the unconscious mind, a contribution to medical science of inestimable importance. Psychosomatic processes begin in the unconscious and, though it has yet to be widely appreciated by either physical or psychiatric medicine, unconscious emotions are a potent factor in virtually all physical ills.”
-supposedly a Sarno quote

none of this is an attack on Sarno, I think he and Freud were correct on a ton of stuff. Just pointing out the merits of taking what those who came before us taught and expanding on it. Or at a minimum bringing further attention to ideas that can help people.

 

[Rabscuttle]

OK @Rabscuttle.... so how does meditating, writing journals about my day and perceived emotions and so forth having anything to do with Deep dark psychological things that we are now speaking of? None.
They are about perceived and localized phenomena and have nothing to do with The unconscious or rage.
That's the point I am making. And asking someone to check in with their body, especially if their mind is the problem is 100% opposite of anything Sarno would have said.
Focusing on the physical AT ALL is counter productive e.g. Sarno getting rid of physical therapists.

Because the symptoms are significant because they are the distraction. If someone is in unbearable pain, their life has effectively gone off the tracks, they see no future, how can they be expected to even understand somewhat abstract concepts let alone effectively implement them into their lives? Many have been living dysfunctionally for years, some decades, if they had the skills to instantly bypass the thoughts (fear and panic) regarding the symptoms and be in-touch with this rage that is fueling the symptoms then I’d guess they would never have been in this situation in the first place. Not everyone is in the same place in life. Not everyone learns or absorbs things similarly. At the end of the day this mindbody work is a skill and the unfortunate reality is that the path towards getting ‘good’ at something is different for everyone.

 

[Cactusflower]

So, @Baseball65 I’m curious to know how you know so much about Sarno? Dr. Schecter has written a book I have not yet read although I’ve seen him talk about it. It looks very interesting. Apparently he, Schubiner and a few others maintained a long time connection discussing findings and theories, shifting differences in patient population (eg less back pain but more anxiety and sadness, more other pain) after Sarno’s books were written and apparently up to his death. Schecter spoke about how not all, but some of Sarno’s views changed after being provided with evidence of both emerging science and data from patients of his colleagues. It seems he became much more open minded on how to deal with many patients but he’d often resist these ideas for a while until evidence pointed their way.
For myself, open curiosity has been a #1 the difference in my symptoms not being so ridged in thinking there was only 1 narrow path and nothing else would work because that narrow path didn’t work for my crazy myriad of symptoms - especially the anxiety. I try to keep an open mind (not always successful) about what has worked for others because there is clear proof that incorporating other ideas also works and works long term. Breaking the ridged black and white mindset between success/failure has been instrumental in my journey too. So what someone (like myself) takes longer to heal is that a Sarno fail? Not in my mind ‘cause I’m lovin’ life with symptoms and have 100% faith I will overcome them. What I am doing is working and I don’t care about others timelines. If I had thought that I was a failure for not healing in 4-6 weeks, I’d have most definitely done myself in then.
I am actually grateful for the slower pace of my journey. I’ve learned a lot along the way that I never would have learned if not for this time.

 

[Cactusflower]

OK @Rabscuttle.... so how does meditating, writing journals about my day and perceived emotions and so forth having anything to do with Deep dark psychological things that we are now speaking of? None.
They are about perceived and localized phenomena and have nothing to do with The unconscious or rage.
That's the point I am making. And asking someone to check in with their body, especially if their mind is the problem is 100% opposite of anything Sarno would have said.
Focusing on the physical AT ALL is counter productive e.g. Sarno getting rid of physical therapists.

Now you sound like an a-hole. Why do you take someone else’s path to wellness so personally? Does challenging your beliefs really get you upset enough to be so rude and judgmental about others success or your judgement of their lack of success?

 

[monica-tms]

I don’t think it’s very kind to respond to people with that much arrogance. I have to be honest - some of the replies here were a bit triggering to read. We’re all doing our best, and we all know this process is not easy. So please, let’s try to be considerate toward one another.

My overall response to this thread is that we should feel grateful, and even excited, that more answers will continue to emerge as doctors and scientists keep exploring this field. In my opinion, it’s only a positive thing when new knowledge is added. Not only does it bring us closer to a real paradigm shift in the medical world, but it may also help us discover an even easier path to healing (or at least with more support from the medical world) than Sarno’s original approach, because newer research continues to build on his work. That’s simply how science evolves.

 

[Baseball65]

Why do you take someone else’s path to wellness so personally?

I don't. I thought this was a TMS forum. What makes me really sad is seeing new people post here and being told to immediately seek out one of the many eclectic , non statistically verified offshoots. People who want Money from them. It would be like going to church and immediately having a tract of a specific Christian sect handed to you, being asked for a check, and told it'll take a LOOOONG time to understand rather than "Go read the bible and then come back and we'll talk".

Nope...2-4 weeks. 6 if you're a slow reader. 5% (1 in 20) might need some extra therapy.

Most people are averse to what Sarno's work was and are only paying it lip service. Things like Somatic tracking assure it.
My inbox is often full of people asking me for help which I never mind giving. They have a whole head full of NON Sarno stuff.

I’m lovin’ life with symptoms

Good for you. I wanted to put a gun in my mouth. I'm here for those people like me who are desperate and don't want a journey
Guys who need to get back to work.
I got better in weeks. I have a few days a year of symptoms and only use Sarno . Sarno gave me my life back.
Trying to pass it on.
...and when I stop by here and read during the week and see all of the advice being passed around by people who haven't got better?
All I can think is "Physicians Heal thyself."

I’m curious to know how you know so much about Sarno

Because I've read the text over and over and over until it's printed over all of that other crap....much of which is still passed around here as Gospel. And how do I know those others are weak copies at best? All of the people mentioning them are the same ones on the 'Journey'
And, most important. I am 60 years old doing whatever I want pain free, working in the trades. Didn't meditate, didn't write any journals, didn't fill out miles of stuff, watch any video's or join any facebook pages, or pay anybody money.
11 bucks, Sarno, and a quiet place to read.

 

[backhand]

"...Y'all know I have no use for any other writer but Sarno..."

The only fair measure of anything is results, so your opinion on this subject carries a lot of weight. And, fwiw, I think checking in to see if you're feeling pain is a form of overthinking which will create more problems than it will solve.

Long story, but Christianity has evolved into the centerpiece of my spiritual life...I only mention that because I still read a lot of Buddhism. I see parallels among Buddhism, Sarno, and Christianity related to this subject.

Re: Sarno: chronic pain often stems from repressed emotions and obsessive focus on physical symptoms. Overthinking pain reinforces it.
Re: Buddhism: the mind creates suffering through clinging, craving, and aversion. Overthinking is a form of mental grasping.
Re: Christianity: Jesus taught “Do not worry about tomorrow” (Matthew 6:34). Overthinking is a form of a lack of trust in God’s provision.

I don't know enough about Gordon, et al. to intelligently assess those approaches with depth, but "Throughout your day, pause occasionally and check in with your body. Notice if you are holding tension or feeling pain" sounds like a backup to a backup plan at best.

 

[Baseball65]

holding tension or feeling pain" sounds like a backup to a backup plan at best.

That's how I came down with TMS. My own life was sneaking away in front of me and I couldn't bear the reality of a lot of it, so 'going within' and focusing on something painful was a great distraction. Like Sarno said...something I'll never understand said "Quick...he's gonna snap.....Save him! OUCH!
A lot of the time, after I get a day or so and it goes away and something I fell asleep on becomes obvious, It is usually that the thing I don't want to see is way more painful than the pain....which is a lot.

Re: Buddhism: the mind creates suffering through clinging, craving, and aversion. Overthinking is a form of mental grasping.

Yep. And the way That Jesus' message was distorted into 'Paul-ism' instead of action is similar to what I am feeling going on with Sarno's work.
Jesus spoke out against empty religion....so they made one about him!

 

[Cactusflower]

“Throughout your day, pause occasionally and check in with your body. Notice if you are holding tension or feeling pain“

I didn’t focus on the pain, but I did and do check in with my body and emotions. The mind and body and brain are one unit and this method works excellently for me.
For awhile I did somatic tracking and it helped with my fear. It doesn’t work for everyone at all stages of their journey but the Boulder Back Pain Study results proved it works and works at a high percentage rate.

Sarno’s theories evolved and changed with input from his colleagues, he just never wrote another book about that and left their finding to them. His work spanned many more years than his book era. I think people on this forum respect the way you healed and follow a lot of your valuable advice without putting down your methods or criticizing what worked for you.
It still amazes me how @TG957 meditated her way to so many changes: pain and fear. Her experience is valid and real.

 

[Rabscuttle]

It’s a bit disappointing to read these messages baseball. I have some respect for you but so much arrogance and frustration is coming through in your messages. I guess if I went from being suicidal to pain free and being able to do what I want with zero fear, I wouldn’t be spending my time condescendingly lecturing others who are likely in their darkest moment that they’re doing healing wrong. Idk, we’re all different man, on a different road with different lived experiences, it seems like you’re implying it’s some personal failing if people aren’t healed within some arbitrary timeframe.

 

[Cactusflower]

@Rabscuttle 's comment brings up questions for me.

@Baseball65 what advice do you have for someone who's followed Sarno's advice to the letter and is still struggling over a longer period of time to see results? What would you offer them?

 

[Cactusflower]

You completely avoided my question, but funny enough you brought up relationship issues.

Last time I saw you get so worked up on this forum it ended up you yourself were in that boat.

Are you ok?

 

[Baseball65]

This has officially become gas lighting. I don't agree with you.
You asked a question you didn't want an answer to. Go make that other guy miserable.
For the love of God, BLOCK Me! I'll give you the same courtesy.
Peace

 

[JanAtheCPA]

note: multiple additional posts kept being added while I was writing this, and I had started this in response to the quote below and never actually got beyond it, so it's possible that what I say doesn't track with later responses - but oh well, here goes...

What makes me really sad is seeing new people post here and being told to immediately seek out one of the many eclectic , non statistically verified offshoots. People who want Money from them.

Huh - well, that doesn't sound good! As a moderator I read pretty much every post, not just every new thread and I really can't remember seeing anything that I interpreted this way. I honestly do not think this is a common occurence with newcomers. Or maybe the new people are just very focused on what they think they want and inexperienced responders try give them that without considering the bigger picture? I've seen that happen. I guess I'm going to have to take your word that this is happening, and I do think it should be addressed, but the easiest solution is to just say (in your own words of course, but with respect to the other posters, please) "I have a different recommendation/direction for you to consider..." and this applies whether it's someone completely new to the TMS concept or someone who thinks they know what they want and who might benefit from being redirected.

Let's also not forget that we are often communicating with individuals who are suffering psychologically to such an extent that Dr. Sarno in his day would not have admitted them into his lectures or even privately treated them. If they keep coming back, we have a number of people here who will keep trying with them - and maybe that means getting creative with responses after running out of our tried-and-true responses. When it comes to some situations, and as that pink banner on my bathroom mirror reminds me every day, what the fuck else can we do?

We can't win every battle. Here on the forum, I've found an enormous amount of personal equanimity by stepping back and reflecting on my emotional response to certain posts, and deciding whether it's worth responding, or whether I'll ultimately experience more peace if I just let it go. I'm getting better at letting go, which is a skill that has become a literal lifesaver, for my mental and physical health, when facing the rest of the world right now.

In other words, I'd really like to see you take this kind of thing with a big grain of salt, and especially try to let go of the black-and-white thinking. This forum, just like life, is full of imperfection. I admit that sometimes it feels like conversations are out of control or going in the wrong direction - but I just stop, take a beat, and let it go. Because, WTFECID? At the end of the day, I find peace in the realization that it's not the end of the world, and we're still helping people, every day.

My bottom line, Marco, is that I would not like to see you abandon the forum, as you provide a unique perspective and voice - admittedly not to everyone's taste, but hugely influential as I know you know. It worries me to see the emotional distress that seems to have prompted your thread. I hope we can all get past this somehow.

 

[Smokey73]

With so much chaos in our world, it should not be surprising to find it here on this beloved forum. But it does break my heart. Coming to this forum has been an important support for me over the years. I have come to "know" so many of you and appreciate each different way you have tackled tms. At times Baseball has just what I needed to hear. Other times, it might be Sita or Diana or Jan or a new voice. You all are part of what makes this such a help for so many. Thank you for who you are and what you contribute to all of us being well.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

With so much chaos in our world, it should not be surprising to find it here on this beloved forum. But it does break my heart. Coming to this forum has been an important support for me over the years. I have come to "know" so many of you and appreciate each different way you have tackled tms. At times Baseball has just what I needed to hear. Other times, it might be Sita or Diana or Jan or a new voice. You all are part of what makes this such a help for so many. Thank you for who you are and what you contribute to all of us being well.

Well said, @Smokey73, and thank you.

I would like to think that this discussion has run its course. Public conflict makes people unhappy and uncomfortable, although it's not entirely unhelpful to be reminded that we can experience external conflict and learn from it. It's also a reminder that inner emotional conflict makes us so unconsciously uncomfortable that we end up with our distracting TMS symptoms.

Here's a learning opportunity that might be useful to consider, which is the issue of deleted comments. As a moderator, I can see that several different people deleted their comments, not just one. This does indeed confuse the subsequent discussion. And y'all may not realize that your post will continue to be visible to anyone who has not refreshed the web page in their browser, and they can still quote it in their reply, perhaps long after you thought it was gone.

The obvious lesson being: think before you post. The more subtle advice I have (from many years at this) is to consider the purpose of your response, its value to the discussion, and what you're actually responding - or reacting - to. The more emotional the discussion, the more time you might need to take to consider your contribution.

And, ya know, sometimes people just need to vent. I'd like to think this is a safe space to do so. For the benefit of outsiders and newer members, respectful disagreement to a rant is certainly valid, but I would suggest that it be presented without judgement or emotion, and in the form of "I" statements.

Peace, my friends.