Family relationships as the cause for TMS

[JanAtheCPA]

Awesome advice @ValkyrKai! I would add just one thing, which is, similarly to a situation in which you need to say NO, don't over-explain!
Keep it simple, and stick to it. If you start trying to justify yourself with too many reasons, they'll go straight to the weakest reason and start picking it apart, and you've achieved nothing but continued frustration. One firm position is all you need.

 

[BloodMoon]

How to correctly set a boundary is to set a boundary and then a consequence for crossing the boundary. Make sure to express why you’re setting the boundary.
I.e. “when you talk to me like this, it makes me feel this way. If you continue to talk to me like this, then we will need to take a break from communicating .” And then follow through. You can give a warning or two if you’d like but it’s important to apply the consequence and follow through.

This is very good advice imo, for when you are dealing 'normal' people.

The trouble is that when you're dealing with a narcissist or sociopath, they will sooner or later overstep your stated boundary or do something else that you will have to set a boundary for and then they'll sooner or later overstep that... and in the end (for your own sanity) you need to go 'no contact'...

Then, unfortunately, a big part of the fall out from doing that is that you have the rest of you family and/or mutual friends to deal with that the narcissist or sociopath has been 'working on' to get them on their side (they love to manipulate everyone and are usually very good at it, it's all an enjoyable game to them and it makes them feel good and powerful and superior to everyone else, and sociopaths have a superficial charm that 'normal' people fall for so it's an especially easy game for them to play)...

The 'worked on' family and/or mutual friends then 'go to work' on you with saying such things as "oh, they didn't mean to do it, everyone makes mistakes, give him/her another chance" and/or "you just took it the wrong way, that's all, nobody's perfect, they were just trying to help" (or whatever) and then they point out all of your defects/flaws as they see them and then 'lo and behold' you become the villain of the piece and the narcissist/sociopath is a hard done by paragon of virtue!...

This happens because I've found that 'normal' people have a blind spot for narcissists and sociopaths, they don't want to believe that they are living within our midst and if they themselves are affected by one it can take sometimes donkey's years (if at all) for the penny to drop.

I didn't have a sibling that was one, but I did have a long-term boyfriend who was and also a 'friend' who was.

With my boyfriend, I was able to cut him dead without too much of a problem (we had no mutual friends and I didn't work with him or live very near to him). However, he did try all manner of tactics to get me to communicate with him, which I had to be strong about and resist (and it was very hard because I was still 'in love' with what I had thought he was, and what I wanted him to be).

With the 'friend' I also went 'no contact', however she and I were part of an extended group of ex-school friends and they were never all going to believe what she was... So, I didn't have a 'show down' with her and/or set any boundaries, which I knew she'd only break. I just all of a sudden stopped all contact with her and with regard to the mutual friends in the group, I opted for the approach of 'don't complain and don't explain'...

When each of them asked me why I wasn't in contact with her, I just said that she had majorly upset me, so majorly that there was no way back, there was no point in discussing it with her, and as I hadn't discussed it with her, I wasn't going to discuss it with them as that wouldn't be fair -- and if they pressed me to explain, I stuck to my guns and wouldn't. (That way I didn't get embroiled in any discussing of the rights and wrongs of the situation as they saw it, and I didn't suffer any criticisms and/or character assassination, albeit maybe some of that went on behind my back, but I never heard about it, and I just took the risk.) From then on I saw my other friends in the group individually. Fortunately, none of them decided to cut me off, but I was of the mindset that if they did, so be it -- as perhaps some of them would eventually realise what she was and make contact with me again.

I'm not saying that I recommend what I did regarding my 'friend' as the way to go for everyone's sociopath/narcissist situation... it's just an option to consider. All I can say is that it saved me a lot of extra unnecessary emotional upset and trauma, and self preservation is key, especially as when at the hands of a narcissist/sociopath we will have already have suffered badly and more than enough.

 

[Diana-M]

How to correctly set a boundary is to set a boundary and then a consequence for crossing the boundary.

Thanks, Eli! Great advice! (Sorry you have a rough sister, too.) a lot of us do have bad sisters. Lol You know the beauty of ranting on this forum and getting all this support is that you grow and move through all these feelings of anguish, confusion and bitterness. Even since I wrote this original post, I feel better— much more clear and even calm about the fact that I have to stay away from her. The guilt about that is passing! Whew. Load off. And the TMS tension about it is easing because I’m not in a war with myself anymore. Blood family or not, you don’t have to keep taking it from people that hurt you. There’s a freedom there. This forum is better than therapy!

 

[Baseball65]

I was still 'in love' with what I had thought he was, and what I wanted him to be

I also found that out ....first with a couple of Gfs and later, virtually everybody in my life. In fact, that little dealio is probably at the root of most people's TMS..the disconnect between how people ARE and how we WISH they could be.

I WISH my family got along.
I WISH my co-workers didn't goof off and pull no-shows
I WISH I lived in a place where the Good ultimately wins out

Like @BloodMoon I learned this problem was really Me in the course of a painful relationship..but it really goes down to the core of my romantic notions of how stuff OUGHT to be. I had to be disabused via reading a lot of that 'redpill' literature.
The GOOD news is..all of that good feeling? It came from Inside of ME, not emanating from the other people...
The BAD news is, I have become a little cynical and tend to interact with the 'outside' world less and less.

Besides it being a monster TMS provocateur, it left me depressed. There is Magic in the world, it just isn't coming from everybody.
J.K. Rowling nailed it...most people are Muggles and are content to live in a 2d, TV and telephone world that is largely a hall of mirrors with no real life anywhere to be found.
Most people's fears start with 'what if I die and ....."
when it's really "What if you LIVED and ...."

 

[Diana-M]

This is very good advice imo, for when you are dealing 'normal' people.

The trouble is that when you're dealing with a narcissist or sociopath, they will sooner or later overstep your stated boundary or do something else that you will have to set a boundary for and then they'll sooner or later overstep that... and in the end (for your own sanity) you need to go 'no contact'...

Then, unfortunately, a big part of the fall out from doing that is that you have the rest of you family and/or mutual friends to deal with that the narcissist or sociopath has been 'working on' to get them on their side (they love to manipulate everyone and are usually very good at it, it's all an enjoyable game to them and it makes them feel good and powerful and superior to everyone else, and sociopaths have a superficial charm that 'normal' people fall for so it's an especially easy game for them to play)...

The 'worked on' family and/or mutual friends then 'go to work' on you with saying such things as "oh, they didn't mean to do it, everyone makes mistakes, give him/her another chance" and/or "you just took it the wrong way, that's all, nobody's perfect, they were just trying to help" (or whatever) and then they point out all of your defects/flaws as they see them and then 'lo and behold' you become the villain of the piece and the narcissist/sociopath is a hard done by paragon of virtue!...

This happens because I've found that 'normal' people have a blind spot for narcissists and sociopaths, they don't want to believe that they are living within our midst and if they themselves are affected by one it can take sometimes donkey's years (if at all) for the penny to drop.

I didn't have a sibling that was one, but I did have a long-term boyfriend who was and also a 'friend' who was.

With my boyfriend, I was able to cut him dead without too much of a problem (we had no mutual friends and I didn't work with him or live very near to him). However, he did try all manner of tactics to get me to communicate with him, which I had to be strong about and resist (and it was very hard because I was still 'in love' with what I had thought he was, and what I wanted him to be).

With the 'friend' I also went 'no contact', however she and I were part of an extended group of ex-school friends and they were never all going to believe what she was... So, I didn't have a 'show down' with her and/or set any boundaries, which I knew she'd just break. I just all of a sudden stopped all contact with her and with regard to the mutual friends in the group, I opted for the approach of 'don't complain and don't explain'...

When each of them asked me why I wasn't in contact with her, I just said that she had majorly upset me, so majorly that there was no way back, there was no point in discussing it with her, and as I hadn't discussed it with her, I wasn't going to discuss it with them as that wouldn't be fair -- and if they pressed me to explain, I stuck to my guns and wouldn't. (That way I didn't get embroiled in any discussing of the rights and wrongs of the situation as they saw it, and I didn't suffer any criticisms and/or character assassination, albeit maybe some of that went on behind my back, but I never heard about it, and I just took the risk.) From then on I saw my other friends in the group individually. Fortunately, none of them decided to cut me off, but I was of the mindset that if they did, so be it -- as perhaps some of them would eventually realise what she was and make contact with me again.

I'm not saying that I recommend what I did regarding my 'friend' as the way to go for everyone's sociopath/narcissist situation... it's just an option to consider. All I can say is that it saved me a lot of extra unnecessary emotional upset and trauma, and self preservation is key, especially as at the hands of a narcissist/sociopath we will have already have suffered badly and more than enough.

@BloodMoon —Great post! Thank you so much for sharing your stories of strength and survival. I especially like the part about accepting what your other friends would do in response to your choices. So be it! In this case for me, it’s my kids and daughters-in-law (whew, they are a tough crowd for me). At any rate, I appreciated what @Baseball65 said earlier that this all comes down to caring what other people (my sons) think of me for protecting myself. And like you said, if I lose them too, then so be it. I’m really feeling great! Because finally FINALLY I’m learning in my long life to stop caring what people think about me. The emotional and physical pain has driven me to learn this. And honestly, I’m grateful. Feeling stronger every day!

 

[Diana-M]

In fact, that little dealio is probably at the root of most people's TMS..the disconnect between how people ARE and how we WISH they could be.

This entire post is amazingly true! Love it! And especially this right here.

 

[Diana-M]

There is Magic in the world, it just isn't coming from everybody.

Quotable!

 

[Diana-M]

Hello, my friends,

My sister, mentioned above in this thread, is trying to circumvent my boundaries and impose a “visit” on me via my son. But he recognized I’m not comfortable with it, without me saying anything. I told her I don’t want a visit. She asked to come and stay with him instead. He’s going to shut that down. (Good son!)

It has been only recently (with your help!) that I have discovered she is a narcissist. She is the toxin “hiding in plain sight.” I have had this relationship my entire life with her but refused to acknowledge the pain she causes. It has been a slow opening of my eyes over the past four months here on the forum that I have seen things for what they are. Meanwhile: my symptoms are flared through the roof. Well, naturally! It’s also a telltale sign that this is a big part of the cause of my TMS.

I know this all sounds simple to people who know what narcissism is. (I didn’t.) And to someone who has their eyes opened. I think we often close our eyes to what will hurt the most. Losing her will be a huge loss even though she wasn’t really there for me. I made it up. I’m good at that.

But now I’m learning. I’m braver. I’m stronger. I can get through this. I’m decided firmly now to make sure this stops. And I’ve decided to tell my kids and the family I no longer want her visits. It will be embarrassing, because I don’t like to cause problems. But this is my problem. I have a problem defending myself. Now it will change. I’m telling my body thanks for protecting me up until now with TMS, but I can take it from here. I told her no visits before because of my TMS. Now I know it’s because of her. She’s too toxic. It still amazes me that I couldn’t see the extent of this.

 

[BloodMoon]

It will be embarrassing, because I don’t like to cause problems.

You are not the one causing 'problems', your sister is. She chose to try and involve and use your son to manipulate the situation, to put your son in an awkward spot, to force and to try to 'embarrass' you (by the awkwardness of the situation that she decided she'd try to create) into letting her "visit" you.

Once you have told your sons and family of your wishes, it may indeed cause some 'problems'/some awkwardness for them (because, as a narcissist, your sister is likely to continue to try use them to get at you, and it's all a big game to her, designed to bolster her fragile ego)... but remember that they are not the ones suffering with TMS - you are - they are all able to live full lives free from debilitating TMS symptoms (as indeed is your sister, enjoying her vacations at her second home in Arizona).

I think @Ellen virtually said it all in her posting earlier on this thread:

"The remedy here is to strengthen your own boundaries. So what that she talks trash about you, you know the truth. You need to trust that others can see the truth of who you are and who she is. You are the better person and if they don't see it now, they will. That is their journey to the truth, not yours, and you need to let go and let them make that journey at their own pace. Don't let it impede the journey you are on.

I know how hard this is. Continue to let it out by journaling. Then be content in knowing you are on a road to self-discovery, and no one can keep you from continuing to make progress. You should feel great about all you've accomplished. It is tough work to get in touch with your rage, but you are doing great."

I would just add that in my dealings with narcissists I found the word 'no' to be both the strongest weapon and protection in my armoury... 'no' to seeing them, 'no' to any contact with them, 'no' to getting embroiled in any aftermath that they create, and 'no' to being a pawn in their games.

It still amazes me that I couldn’t see the extent of this.

You're a normal person and normal people don't tend have an innate instinct for spotting narcissism or sociopathy in other people. Also, narcissists (and sociopaths) are masters at manipulation, wearing and hiding behind a mask of normality when in reality they are anything but normal.

 

[Diana-M]

Thank you, @BloodMoon, for this wonderful post. Very helpful! I can’t believe how hard this is! All I knew is I felt terrible. I got more TMS, and I can relate almost all of it back to encounters and time spent talking to my sister. But from as early as 2 years old, I was always with her. Surviving a war together (our childhood). She was the one I “relied” on. Journaling is unraveling the truth for me. And then posting my newfound knowledge on this forum and getting support. It really is tricky and hard to see. In the past, I would just blunder along and keep hurting myself, never knowing it was being caused by her. Now I can see. And now comes the time of resolve. She’s knocking on all my windows and doors. She just texted me a minute ago! I deleted it. I’m really tired in my soul. And my TMS is doing even bigger things. A lot of pain today. I’m in for the long haul of getting her out. I am convinced that this is a big piece to my puzzle. Thanks again for your help! I know you mentioned earlier that you had to get over and past a narcissist, too. All respect to those, like you, who have done it! Not easy at all!

I’m tempted to talk to her and let her have it, but everything I’m reading says that any attention, and especially negative attention, only feeds their fire. No Contact is the only solution. It’s hard because I start to think of “her feelings” and I doubt myself. the truth is, she’s a blood sucking vampire. I’m just a supply of ego for her. And she’s coming around for my blood. I have to think of it that way.

 

[Ellen]

Thank you,
I’m tempted to talk to her and let her have it, but everything I’m reading says that any attention, and especially negative attention, only feeds their fire.

I recently read about this approach to narcissists called "gray rocking". In it you try to respond in such a mundane and boring way that you are like a gray rock. Narcissists feed on drama and emotion, so you just withhold it entirely in your response. Eventually they get bored with you.

Edit: I don't know how this ended up with blue font and I can't figure out how to remove it. :rolleyes:
.

 

[Diana-M]

I have a second thing going on too, right now. And it’s probably also fueling my symptoms. I was going to start a new thread, but I think it belongs here.

A circumstance has arisen where I have the opportunity to go after some retirement money I never got awarded from my first marriage to a pathologically abusive man. All this time, for 30 years, I haven’t pursued it because I believed him when he said it would be impossible to get. I also never had the money to hire a lawyer and most of all, I didn’t want to have to stand up to him. Well, now I have decided to. It’s my money. I need it. I’m going after it. It’s making my symptoms flare. I don’t care.

This newfound resolve is a product of learning how to heal from all my experience here. You can’t heal from TMS as a victim. So here I go: fighting two monsters at once! (My sister and my ex)I’m either going to die trying or come out with money to take some of my retirement fears away (which is another of my TMS causes: money worries).

Looks like it’s time to journal, again! I’ve been putting in at least 30 min a day. Thanks for everyone’s support!

 

[Cactusflower]

“I would just add that in my dealings with narcissists I found the word 'no' to be both the strongest weapon and protection in my armoury... 'no' to seeing them, 'no' to any contact with them, 'no' to getting embroiled in any aftermath that they create, and 'no' to being a pawn in their games”

I will attest to this!
I am going through something similar to you, @Diana-M nut with someone who was a friend.
She claims to be raised by narcissists, but now I realize SHE is the narcissists, perennial victim etc. I broke all contact with her and she is trying to go through my husband, other friends, bad mouthing me by telling people I’m the one who’s nuts etc. Many believe her, the way they treat me is really kind of funny.. but I noticed that she doesn’t pull this crap with a lot of our mutual friends.. she did it because she could sense my kindness and people pleasing..
That door is shut. I still fear running into her. I probably will this weekend. I will be alone and we run in the same circles. All of her nonsense is cloaked in kindness and concern, it’s sly and frankly she’s not even aware of it. But learned that this is an opportunity to test my boundary keeping, to put my people pleasing and my fear of being not liked in check. My motto is f* that sh*t. I refuse to be treated with callous regard even if the other person is unaware of how they treat people. I am not the names people may call me. They can have their opinions, I choose to be around people who value me as I value them. That includes family (and x-family who still tries to pull this crap after no contact for 30 years!!!).
I applaud you for going after your money. Go get it! Deal only with your people (lawyer) and be prepared to launch slander or other charges if your x tries to keep you powerless. You’ve got this!!

 

[Diana-M]

My motto is f* that sh*t. I refuse to be treated with callous regard even if the other person is unaware of how they treat people. I am not the names people may call me. They can have their opinions, I choose to be around people who value me as I value them.

@Cactusflower,
I’m really sorry you are experiencing this same pain. It is a lot harder than it sounds. It’s extra tricky because you can question yourself until you get yourself set straight. I liked how you said:“All of her nonsense is cloaked in kindness and concern, it’s sly.” My gosh, yes!

It appears that narcissists always deal in triangulation. They get off on trying to embarrass you publicly among family and friends. So the only way to win is no contact, like you said, and NEVER let them know they got you. I hope when you see this Narc of yours this weekend, that you are smiling and happy and filled with life. I’ve never met you personally, but I have felt your graciousness and friendship and it’s wonderful. She’s a liar. Yes, being too kind made us bait for these people. Once we get past this, we’ll be better for it.

I just journaled for an hour. And I wrote neatly this time. So I can keep it and read it for awhile. It was pretty good! lol You are right! We don’t have to take this.

And hell yes, I’m getting my retirement money. He won’t even see it coming.

 

[Ellen]

But learned that this is an opportunity to test my boundary keeping, to put my people pleasing and my fear of being not liked in check. My motto is f* that sh*t. I refuse to be treated with callous regard even if the other person is unaware of how they treat people. I am not the names people may call me. They can have their opinions, I choose to be around people who value me as I value them. That includes family (and x-family who still tries to pull this crap after no contact for 30 years!!!).

rel

This! I've spent the last year challenging my tendency to people please, and have lost a couple of friends when I stopped. One factor I learned is that we tend to repeat relationship dynamics we experienced as a child because it feels familiar to us--not good, but familiar. I had this one friend who dumped everything on me all the time. And one day I realized that was exactly what my mother had done to me growing up. I was her confidant, where she told me everything that no child should be privy too. Once I realized I was repeating a dynamic from my childhood, I was able to let it go.

 

[Diana-M]

One factor I learned is that we tend to repeat relationship dynamics we experienced as a child because it feels familiar to us--not good, but familiar.

This is so true! And quite a big deal to change. But not impossible. That’s good you realized what was happening with your friend reminding you of your mother dumping on you. And you protected yourself!

 

[Cactusflower]

@Diana-M

@Cactusflower,
"It’s extra tricky because you can question yourself until you get yourself set straight."

That's exactly how gaslighting works!

 

[Cactusflower]

rel

This! I've spent the last year challenging my tendency to people please, and have lost a couple of friends when I stopped. One factor I learned is that we tend to repeat relationship dynamics we experienced as a child because it feels familiar to us--not good, but familiar. I had this one friend who dumped everything on me all the time. And one day I realized that was exactly what my mother had done to me growing up. I was her confidant, where she told me everything that no child should be privy too. Once I realized I was repeating a dynamic from my childhood, I was able to let it go.

Yep, absolutely what happened to me. My mom expected me to manage her anxiety, depression, and would tell me everything because she couldn't face getting help elsewhere.

 

[Diana-M]

My mom expected me to manage her anxiety, depression, and would tell me everything because she couldn't face getting help elsewhere

Ugh! That’s horrible. It robs your childhood.

 

[BloodMoon]

But from as early as 2 years old, I was always with her. Surviving a war together (our childhood). She was the one I “relied” on.

This article says: "Children as young as 2 years old can show signs of narcissism. This is good because it is early enough that environmental and parenting influences can be changed to decrease the chances of the child developing NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder)." https://www.verywellhealth.com/narcissistic-personality-disorder-in-children-5215093#:~:text=Children%20as%20young%20as%202,of%20the%20child%20developing%20NPD Sadly, it seems that your sister didn't have the necessary parenting influences to stop her from developing full blown adult NPD and her narcissistic tendencies were only encouraged by being your mother's 'golden child'/favourite. But you're not responsible for any of that. There's no cure for NPD and you don't deserve to have to bear the brunt of your sister's narcissism for the whole of your life.