do you need to get out of the stressful situation or do you just need to acknowledge it?

[learningmore]

I think any time someone makes you feel "less than", "not good enough", or causes you to doubt your own reality, you should dump them like a hot potato. The problem is that these types of insecure people know the right victims to choose in a sense. I suppose they choose you and if one doesn't have a strong enough sense of self or worthiness, then one is vulnerable to that kind of abuse. It can often be subtle and one can get conditioned to it, to the point where it seems normal! I do think there is something to the whole mid life time period where you just have a lower tolerance and you start to realize you don't want to live like that between now and dead. When I think back on my twenties, when I should have had the world at my feet, I was a total disaster with no self esteem. I feel sad for that girl. @learningmore , I don't know where you are at in your life, but the worst thing on earth is living with regret for lost time. You never want to have too wonder how your life may have been different and shared with someone who might have cherished you. The more time you waste on a dead end relationship, the more opportunities you are missing out on to grow and meet others.

Yeah this is 100% my mom. She fakes encouragement, but really if I don't select the course of action she wants me to do, she will judge and belittle me... during youth, I thought this just meant my mom was really smart and knew best. But now I realize it's because she's a shitty person, certainly. Anything I wanted to do that she liked I would be encouraged, stuff I needed acquired for me, etc. But anything I wanted to do that she didn't like, wow was I ever moronic for wanting to try it. The long ass lectures from her, narclectures, which were mostly about how she "couldn't understand why anybody would want to do [thing]" nevertheless just about herself, the chances to mock the thing I wanted to do, indirectly preventing me from doing it by making me pay for it myself (which sometimes took a long time while saving allowance), not being supportive at all, telling me I'm wrong, teasing me, etc. Hey mom, this is why I suck shit at being confident in myself and my selections. Of course, "that's not how [she] remember it." Gaslighting, yo. Then I get a lecture about how she's soooo supportive and all the times she's been supportive and I'm completely crazy for thinking otherwise (even when I have proof to the contrary). And then she summons my whipped dad to support her. "Honey, can you believe learningmore said this about me?" In front of me. "Oh, your dad couldn't even believe you thought that!!!" And then when I point it out to my dad ACCURATELY what she's doing, he ignores me or changes the subject. Way to stand up for yourself!

It's weird, because my parents are rich AF. My dad had a high paying job and is VERY frugal. My mom never worked after she had me. So it's not like we're some stereotypically dysfunctional family. We're a rich dysfunctional family. And my mom loves to talk about how it's "her house" (she didn't pay for it) and acts like she's entitled to everything because marriage. My mom basically power trips constantly all the time about everything, and I can't really do anything because I'm not in power, and my dad won't do anything because... I don't know why.

My point for mentioning this is now that I'm an adult, the only thing my mom can hold over my head is money.

 

[learningmore]

In the 'recovering from abuse' nomenclature, that initial period is called 'Love bombing'.... what cluster B people , especially Narcy's are very good at is reflecting that person's idealized, romantic perfect partner image BACK at the codependent to 'capture' them. Once that period ends (6 mo's-2 years) is when the real Narcy appears. The victim keeps trying to get back to that HIGH of limerence, but only gets stomped and emotionally destroyed.

We have had interesting discussions before. Since Narcy's only mirror stuff back to people, is their really a person in there at all? Or are they one big carnival mirror?? If a tree falls in the forest....? LOL

all good stuff!

Every girlfriend I've had has done this to me.

I thought she'd been showing me affection. I thought that's how relationships worked.

 

[learningmore]

1. If just realizing it makes your symptoms go away, than that’s all you need to do.

2. If that does not work, look into how you can communicate your needs more effectively.

3. If that does not work, take some assertiveness training so that you can constructively stand up for yourself.

4. If that does not work and it’s a relationship you cannot leave, such as a parent, consider coping strategies, group counseling, and other options.

Not an easy situation. However, a lot of it is the result of not communicating what’s happening to us nice TMSers.

I had do my own learning and transformation so that I could resolve issues with my wife and set boundaries for my overbearing parents so that I would not end up in disabling pain again. That was 28 years.

So there are solutions. Don’t give up.

Do you mean not communicating to TMSers as in not telling people on the forum, or not communicating to TMSers as in that's how we comprehend it?

 

[learningmore]

I'm so glad Dr. Palmatier was mentioned here. I discovered her website years ago and read a lot of posts on it, but when I saw her name shared here I didn't know it was her, so I went to her website and uncovered her name and yeah, she's good.

 

[Baseball65]

Suddenly components fit together. (Nearly) every woman I've dated has been a borderline. I'm codependent.

DAD WHAT ARE YOU DOING

The Freedom moment came by asking myself this question. "What is so wrong with me that I will put up with ANY treatment no matter how bad?"

I don't have to answer it ( though I have had a few different answers that all work} I just need to ASK myself that question to bring 'reality' into my very foggy, conditioned brain. Out loud, alone "Marc...what is so wrong with you...etc"

Just saying it has been so liberating I can't explain it. I have made a lot of different choices about my time, my money, where to be , how to be,etc. I found the strength to walk away from my abuser, no matter how beautiful, sorry, 'willing to change' etc.

My Mom was WEIRD. She had all of those 'narcy' traits, but she wasn't particularly vain about looks and glamour..for her it was our 'pedigree' as a family . I have to watch that myself. One trait of a narcy is over valuation of degrees and distinctions. Phd's, certifications and such mean a LOT to a narc. My Partner also cared more about my Fathers alleged success than the FACT that I never finished college...vicarious glamour is fine for those vampires.

I realized I was so starved for affection that I would put up with any treatment, because My mom was like a lizard... I don't ever remember her hugging me or even pretending until I was an adult. She told me she wasn't a very good parent and that she probably shouldn't have had kids, that we were my fathers idea,etc.

Regardless, I got free before she passed away. Just the out loud awareness of my learned helplessness slowly changed me. I didn't become a 'dick' (My worst fear).... I actually became more authentic as I stopped pretending things were other than how they are.

My sons helped a LOT. They actually got in my face when they saw what you saw with your Pops. My sons banned her from my shows and even said "Hey dad...she's making you look like a Douche!" In retrospect, I am totally grateful. That made me realize that I was risking some of the most impoiortant relationships in my life over my problem...maybe even my freedom from jail, as it got weirder and weirder.

...and Dr. Tara's articles and that forum were also a very powerful help....and just doing what we're doing now. Talking about it. Finding out it's not normal OR mandatory.

peace

 

[learningmore]

I see you quoted a statement I made about my dad (dad what are you doing).

What my dad does is manage my mom's mood. It's the same thing I do. Constantly. Like many codependents, I cannot relax if everyone else is not in a good mood.

My dad knows if he keeps my mom in a good mood (by supplicating), she won't bitch at him. He is afraid of that.

I do the same thing. I catch myself doing it regularly. It's winning the battle but losing the war. I can defuse a tense situation with my mom by changing the subject. But I'm still living with a narcissist, so... yeah.

 

[FredAmir]

Do you mean not communicating to TMSers as in not telling people on the forum, or not communicating to TMSers as in that's how we comprehend it?

i wrote, “Not an easy situation. However, a lot of it is the result of not communicating what’s happening to us nice TMSers.”

I meant people with TMS generally are so nice that they do not communicate to narcissists or others how their actions are making them angry and upset.

 

[learningmore]

i wrote, “Not an easy situation. However, a lot of it is the result of not communicating what’s happening to us nice TMSers.”

I meant people with TMS generally are so nice that they do not communicate to narcissists or others how their actions are making them angry and upset.

Thank you for clarifying.

I think one part of the problem is attempting to communicate with narcissists often doesn't work, or can make things worse.

 

[FredAmir]

Thank you for clarifying.

I think one part of the problem is attempting to communicate with narcissists often doesn't work, or can make things worse.

Yes, unfortunately that is the case. That’s why assertiveness training came be helpful.

 

[learningmore]

Yes, unfortunately that is the case. That’s why assertiveness training came be helpful.

Can you share about how assertiveness training works with narcissists? Whenever I have tried to be assertive with a narcissist, I was either ridiculed or bullied more.

 

[FredAmir]

Can you share about how assertiveness training works with narcissists? Whenever I have tried to be assertive with a narcissist, I was either ridiculed or bullied more.

Like any other strategy, if it does not work, you try something else or when possible leave the relationship.

 

[learningmore]

Like any other strategy, if it does not work, you try something else or when possible leave the relationship.

So you have no examples to support your advice of attempt assertiveness training?

 

[Diana-M]

Hi everyone,
I found this thread from 2021 and loved this discussion. I found it because I was doing a search on learned helplessness, victimization and self assertion. It’s a topic figuring prominently in my journaling of late. I think it has contributed a lot to my TMS. This feeling that I can’t make things happen. I can’t get what I need.

I don’t speak up for myself. I am just starting to see how much I need to change this in my life. Get a sense of my own power. I so easily give up. Even if it’s something as simple as decorating a room. I’ll defer to my husband’s choices. If my grown kids give me something for the house, I’ll put it up on the wall even if I hate it. If I need something— like a new chair that doesn’t hurt my back—I’ll just make do without it. I don’t push to get it. Really go for it. These are little examples. There are much bigger ones. Like defending myself against people who remind me of my abusive and confusing parents. Getting away from scenarios that are destructive to me. Saying no to activities and events that I don’t feel comfortable doing.

Just a few days ago I asserted to my husband that my symptoms were going to make our vacation too uncomfortable for me. So we postponed our trip. I immediately felt relief. And I wondered at how many times in my life I have MADE myself do something that I didn’t want to do. Because I’m really good at that.

As Alan Gordon says, TMSers aren’t people pleasers, we just want to avoid conflict. That is totally true for me! But also something more is going on here. It’s just plain old low self esteem. Not thinking I deserve better. I know from loads of therapy, it comes from being treated badly as a child and taking on the guilt and shame that rightfully belonged to my parents. Easier said than done—fixing that! Thoughts?

 

[Ellen]

You've done the work, and have identified the dysfunctional thinking patterns that have stemmed from your childhood--the low self-esteem and conflict avoidance. This shows great insight and courage. Now you need to change the dysfunctional behavioral patterns. This requires more courage. I suggest that you start small. You've already postponed the trip. Pick something else--maybe the chair. Just plug away one thing at a time, and celebrate the victories. Realize how nothing horrible happened when you stood up for yourself. Congratulations!

 

[Diana-M]

You've done the work, and have identified the dysfunctional thinking patterns that have stemmed from your childhood--the low self-esteem and conflict avoidance. This shows great insight and courage. Now you need to change the dysfunctional behavioral patterns. This requires more courage. I suggest that you start small. You've already postponed the trip. Pick something else--maybe the chair. Just plug away one thing at a time, and celebrate the victories. Realize how nothing horrible happened when you stood up for yourself. Congratulations!

Thanks, @Ellen ! As always, I treasure your advice and appreciate your support.

 

[Cactusflower]

I’d say that’s pretty much the process I went through with my husband. I would also say that mostly I want to avoid conflict but I have definitely been a people pleaser. At other times I have created conflict when people have been absolute as*holes. Now I know to watch this reaction and allow the feelings of anger but to decide whether reacting or not is really worth it to my own personal peace.
I pretty much went through this process with each individual I know. It has been hard on some friends to deal with the changes: co-dependency but for me it hands been enlightening and rather fun to see the outcomes. My best and dearest have been very proud and it has created a shift in their own lives and their own self-realization.
You are doing wonderful work! Keep it up and don’t forget to join it with the well rounded approach of also getting back to doing more which enables you to flex your muscles of confronting fears both in relationships with others and within yourself. It helps you truly gain confidence!

 

[Diana-M]

Keep it up and don’t forget to join it with the well rounded approach of also getting back to doing more which enables you to flex your muscles of confronting fears both in relationships with others and within yourself. It helps you truly gain confidence!

Thanks, @Cactusflower ! I know what you mean about the doing more. I am just discovering that with—of all things—doing the dishes. I have really gotten stronger day by day doing them. At first I could hardly lift a stack of plates! Now I am feeling more balanced when standing and lots of other smaller improvements . Yesterday I put glasses away on the top shelf. Little things. I’m surprised how much it gives me to do it. I NEED to expand to getting out of the house more. Haven’t in months. I just keep avoiding it. And I’m thinking of super baby steps for this one. Standing on the front porch, for starters.

 

[louaci]

Thanks for sharing. A lot of the parent examples described above fit into the Asian parents: they control the kids by so-called self-sacrificing or nagging or micromanaging or caring for every single details of the kids for external validation, if the kids don't do what socially is acceptable, the parents belittle or shame them and try to coerce them to do the "right" things, like good education, high paying jobs, social status, having kids and raising them right and starting the same cycles again. And this pattern continues for generations. It is good for functioning society I guess but could be quite detrimental for individuals if their own drive and interests are totally destroyed solely for achieving those socially-accepted goals, which may lead to different manifestations of TMS. I think even when left alone, a lot of people would still do the mainstream things, but their mental capacity may fare better later in life.

I have been noticing that I could not feel how I truly feel for a long time. I feel what others tell me to feel, cultural, social and family conditioning etc. For myself, anything that feels not fitting the social norms could be quickly put down and I don't even feel it. When I want to do something, I try to enlist others to do it with me because I want some company. Sometimes the others don't want to do it, I try to nag or beg or say something like oh it is good for you let's do it etc., and if they still resist, I feel victimized and pissed. This is a very dysfunctional pattern. Another example of boundary invader and not feeling it myself, my son likes to come to my room in the middle of the night because he is afraid of the darkness. He cuddles and looks really cute. Maybe I feel really mad at it because I want to sleep in peace without being disturbed. But that feeling is quickly pushed aside and thoughts like, "oh, what a sweet little boy, it is ok for him to come in at night" would occupy my mind. I try to journal these moments and see how I truly feel, but sometimes I wonder if my mind is so conditioned and cloaked that I have to dig deeper and deeper.

 

[BloodMoon]

That is totally true for me! But also something more is going on here. It’s just plain old low self esteem. Not thinking I deserve better. I know from loads of therapy, it comes from being treated badly as a child and taking on the guilt and shame that rightfully belonged to my parents. Easier said than done—fixing that! Thoughts?

@Diana-M My thought is that this is where doing "afformations" comes into play, such as:

(suggest you pick at least one or compose your own and just run with it!)

Why do I deserve to have a comfortable chair to sit in?
Why is it okay to say no to activities and events that I don’t feel comfortable doing?
Why is it perfectly okay for me to walk away from people and situations that aren't good for me?
Why is it perfectly okay to honour my own tastes?
Why do I deserve to live my life as I want to live my life?
Why am I free of _____________ at last?
Why is it okay to look after myself?
Why do I easily see my own worth and value?
Why do I seek the best for myself in life?
Why am I allowed to be who I really am?
Why am I so confident in being who I really am?
Why am I a truly, relaxed and happy person?
Why do I believe in myself?
Why do I love being so confident?
Why do I love feeling so confident?
Why am I so comfortable in my own skin?
Why is it okay to love myself?
Why is it okay to like myself?
Why am I proud of myself?

 

[Diana-M]

@Diana-M My thought is that this is where doing "afformations" comes into play, such as:

(suggest you pick at least one or compose your own and just run with it!)

Why do I deserve to have a comfortable chair to sit in?
Why is it okay to say no to activities and events that I don’t feel comfortable doing?
Why is it perfectly okay for me to walk away from people and situations that aren't good for me?
Why is it perfectly okay to honour my own tastes?
Why do I deserve to live my life as I want to live my life?
Why am I free of _____________ at last?
Why is it okay to look after myself?
Why do I easily see my own worth and value?
Why do I seek the best for myself in life?
Why am I allowed to be who I really am?
Why am I so confident in being who I really am?
Why am I a truly, relaxed and happy person?
Why do I believe in myself?
Why do I love being so confident?
Why do I love feeling so confident?
Why am I so comfortable in my own skin?
Why is it okay to love myself?
Why is it okay to like myself?
Why am I proud of myself?

Love these, @BloodMoon ! It’s funny, I woke up during the night and was thinking for a bit and thought of some of these! Just now seeing your post. Great minds think alike! Thank you!