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A New Beginning | Being Sensitive

Discussion in 'Support Subforum' started by Simplicity, Dec 8, 2015.

  1. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    I sure thought like you many years ago. In 1964 I went to Greece on holidays. I am an Greek Australian and had held the views you express. In Greece I saw some incredible scenes that changed the way I was thinking.
    On one occasion I was at restaurant in a plaza and two cars collided near by in the street. It wasn't a bad collision, only some minor damage. The two drivers got out and for about 5 or 10 minutes abused the hell out of one another, verbally of course, waving their hands about like mad men. Many people stood around and watched, some cheered them on. Then when their anger was exhausted they got back into their cars and drove away calmly. I was taken aback. My new Greek acquaintances saw nothing wrong, in fact they were among the people who cheered them on. When I confronted them about it as you are here doing to me, they said "what do you expect them to do, hold in the anger? That is not healthy!"

    Even more dramatically on a train, (I don't know the situation now, but at that time train lines crossed the streets and trains stopped traffic sometimes). The train was stopped and I was sitting reading my book. I could hear a huge commotion outside so I got up and went to look out of the window. There was a long line of cars on the street far into the distance. I could see them as they were perpendicular to the train, which was obstructing them. Each driver was standing outside of their car with one hands leaning on their horns continuously and with the other waving in the air as they all yelled in a cacophony of sounds. I said to the person next to me, "what is going on". "Oh don't worry they are just sounding their frustrations at the train driver. He'll move off soon and they will all get back in their cars and drive away." I was told that "this was normal". In Australia this would have been seen as "off the wall", not acceptable at all.

    I agree that "It is healthy to love yourself" for sure, but

    I disagree with "and become more in tune with others". One cannot become more in tune with those that are haters. They seek to violate with impunity. One has to be able to stand up to these people. You can express anger in firm words and a stern manner.

    Also I disagree with "and learning to distance your self from potential feelings of threat." If you feel threatened chances are you are being threatened but again those that engage in this sort of behavior don't do so openly, at least the majority don't do so openly. Their aim is to violate the other and at the same time make them feel badly about expressing their anger. This is unhealthy because their anger ends up as ongoing bodily reactivity that leads to pain and suffering. I found that the best way to counter this is to stand your ground and to counter attack mentally. We can set directives to the universe to protect ourselves from those that seek to hurt or harm us. We have a right to defend ourselves and our children and property.

    I found that anger only promotes more suffering, when we don't express it properly. And it only leads to hate in those that are haters anyway. After I came back to Australia and since then I have allowed myself to express disapproval, disagreement and even anger, in an appropriate way and were I needed to oppose someone trying to violate me. I have no regrets for doing so. If I was to make a show of anger to someone who didn't deserve it I would feel regret but I would not abuse another in the first place. I also don't agree that it would lead to isolation and pain because anger has appropriate boundaries. Toxic people get angry for the sake of power and influence but humane people do not behave in this way. If someone is not threatening you and does not treat you unjustly why would you get angry with them. Clearly you wouldn't so the humane person maintains their friends and stands up to those that act unjustly.

    Bottom line, expressed appropriately, at the right time and for the right reasons, anger is good.
     
  2. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    I sure thought like you many years ago. In 1964 I went to Greece on holidays. I am an Greek Australian and had held the views you express. In Greece I saw some incredible scenes that changed the way I was thinking.
    On one occasion I was at restaurant in a plaza and two cars collided near by in the street. It wasn't a bad collision, only some minor damage. The two drivers got out and for about 5 or 10 minutes abused the hell out of one another, verbally of course, waving their hands about like mad men. Many people stood around and watched, some cheered them on. Then when their anger was exhausted they got back into their cars and drove away calmly. I was taken aback. My new Greek acquaintances saw nothing wrong, in fact they were among the people who cheered them on. When I confronted them about it as you are here doing to me, they said "what do you expect them to do, hold in the anger? That is not healthy!"

    Even more dramatically on a train, (I don't know the situation now, but at that time train lines crossed the streets and trains stopped traffic sometimes). The train was stopped and I was sitting reading my book. I could hear a huge commotion outside so I got up and went to look out of the window. There was a long line of cars on the street far into the distance. I could see them as they were perpendicular to the train, which was obstructing them. Each driver was standing outside of their car with one hands leaning on their horns continuously and with the other waving in the air as they all yelled in a cacophony of sounds. I said to the person next to me, "what is going on". "Oh don't worry they are just sounding their frustrations at the train driver. He'll move off soon and they will all get back in their cars and drive away." I was told that "this was normal". In Australia this would have been seen as "off the wall", not acceptable at all.

    I agree that "It is healthy to love yourself" for sure, but

    I disagree with "and become more in tune with others". One cannot become more in tune with those that are haters. They seek to violate with impunity. One has to be able to stand up to these people. You can express anger in firm words and a stern manner.

    Also I disagree with "and learning to distance your self from potential feelings of threat." If you feel threatened chances are you are being threatened but again those that engage in this sort of behavior don't do so openly, at least the majority don't do so openly. Their aim is to violate the other and at the same time make them feel badly about expressing their anger. This is unhealthy because their anger ends up as ongoing bodily reactivity that leads to pain and suffering. I found that the best way to counter this is to stand your ground and to counter attack mentally. We can set directives to the universe to protect ourselves from those that seek to hurt or harm us. We have a right to defend ourselves and our children and property.

    I found that anger only promotes more suffering, when we don't express it properly. And it only leads to hate in those that are haters anyway. After I came back to Australia and since then I have allowed myself to express disapproval, disagreement and even anger, in an appropriate way and were I needed to oppose someone trying to violate me. I have no regrets for doing so. If I was to make a show of anger to someone who didn't deserve it I would feel regret but I would not abuse another in the first place. I also don't agree that it would lead to isolation and pain because anger has appropriate boundaries. Toxic people get angry for the sake of power and influence but humane people do not behave in this way. If someone is not threatening you and does not treat you unjustly why would you get angry with them. Clearly you wouldn't so the humane person maintains their friends and stands up to those that act unjustly.

    Bottom line, expressed appropriately, at the right time and for the right reasons, anger is good.
     
  3. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Interesting point and it could be applied to a spectrum of emotions such as worry, stress, anger etc. We definitely could become better at expressing appropriately and at the right time and for the right reason. But expression can be equally as harmful as suppression, I think the key is to become better at being aware, comforting and assuring your inner child he or she is not under threat when you feel angry.

    The danger with really feeling anger is that the more you do it the better you become at it. Which isn't something I'd recommend. One wouldn't want to fly of the handle for the smallest of things, particularly when we spend most of our life on auto pilot. I certainly wouldn't want to tarnish a relationship with loved ones during a time of disagreement. Each circumstance needs to be addressed in different fashion.

    On another note, did you know Greece has one of the highest levels of heart attacks in the world? I also read scientists believe heart attacks are 8.5 more times likely after a severe outburst of anger.

    http://greece.greekreporter.com/2014/07/12/greece-tops-list-of-heart-disease-and-strokes-in-europe/

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150224083819.htm
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2015
  4. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest

    I agree that we need to be able to stand up for ourselves and to express our emotions properly. Telling someone we are mad at them and talking about it is the correct way to go about it. When we get really mad and lash out at someone we lose sight of the situation and our feelings - that can lead to much damage.

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't assert ourselves, but I don't see acting out in anger as the right way to do so. Oftentimes when someone acts badly towards us it comes from a place of fear and I don't think aggravating that fear helps. If we need to protect ourselves I believe that it's far better to walk away from the situation, at least temporarily until the emotions settles down. It's also important to be able to recognize toxic people and find ways to distance yourself from them and not let them affect you.

    For me it's a matter of acknowledging when I'm angry, trying to see why I feel angry and then find ways to release it in a healthy way (and stop feeling guilty about it).

    I do think I need to start telling myself that I'm worthy, that I have the right to express myself, set boundaries, etc. I also think that when you're more confident and secure in yourself you're much less likely to allow people to treat you badly because then you see your own worth. I'm hoping to get to that point; I'm working on it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2015
  5. Andy Bayliss

    Andy Bayliss TMS Coach & Beloved Grand Eagle

    These two I particularly like, because they begin to address "guilt around anger." They are statements to "disengage from the Inner Critic." If I can assert my right to feel anger, this will make space for me to exist in all my feelings...

    My own inner structure tends toward anger, and then this activates the superego, or Inner Critic.

    For me personally, it is important to know that I have a right to feel anger. It does not make me wrong or unlovable. If I am mean to others, or try to control them or scare them with my anger, then this is another thing completely. In this case, my aim is to clear up my acting out, with those involved, and with myself.

    It is healthy to say "Right now I am angry at you about _____________." It is another thing to act anger out on someone. They are two distinct actions. But the child's mind does not distinguish. Anger=wrongness.
     
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  6. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest

    Very well said, Andy.

    This is exactly what I need to learn; that I have the right to be angry (when appropriate) and to express my feelings (in a healthy way).

    The key for me moving forward is to work with my Inner Critic, learning how to disengage from that negative voice. I wasn't aware (or I refused to see) that it was causing me so much trouble.
     
  7. Andy Bayliss

    Andy Bayliss TMS Coach & Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Simplicity,
    I always recommend Byron Brown's book Soul Without Shame for working with the Inner Critic. It is a good start. You might like it.
    Andy B.
     
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  8. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest

    I looked it up. It seems to be exactly what I need to read. :)

    Thank you!
     
  9. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest


    I like these affirmations.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2015
  10. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter


    I find this comment contradictory.
    If angry then the issue(s) involve either injustice eg a cheat or a violation of some sort. Becoming more aware one would realize this. So you cannot simply comfort yourself (see it as the Freudian notion of an inner child if you like) and assure yourself that you are not under threat because in some cases you are. Ideas in the mind point to issues and those ideas give rise to emotional reactivity in the body for a reason.

    Anger arises with injustices (eg being cheated) and /or violations.
    Fear arises with threats or danger.

    Both of these raise the body’s metabolism in different ways and for different reasons. Anger raises the metabolism by deepening the breath and thus affecting the heart rate. It allows for the person to have extra energy to do something. And that something in most cases is to speak more firmly, stand your ground. In rare cases it might be to fight someone off. In the case of fear the metabolism is raised through actions of the sympathetic nervous system, which prepares the body for action and maintains that preparation as long as the danger or threat persists.

    The big difference between the two is the effect on the muscles. In anger you find that muscles become active and thus tense because that is the normal action of muscles. In fear the action on muscles only comes if you take some action. It is not a primary effect. I suspect this is a key reason for pain with anger issues. While ever you keep telling yourself stories to calm yourself down all you are doing is mentally avoiding the issues, which pushes them into subconsciousness. You are not making changes in the body, so the action on muscles persists and thus leads to pain. Tension in itself is going to become a problem because it will keep tendons pulled, bones in set positions, and then there is also inflammation because muscle cells that are under continuous tension will suffer damage.
     
  11. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    Definitely we need to make an assessment. A spouse saying “you’ll never find any work” or “you’ll never be good at anything” etc, is making a threat of sorts, but it is trivial, if you have self-confidence. It is a threat to the integrity of the personality. A violation to be sure but I wouldn’t be ready to fire missiles. On the other hand a spouse that threatens you with a knife may require some sort of action. You have to assess the situation to decide what action you will take. I don’t think people live in auto pilot. I think people live more in the present that most would appreciate.


    In my experience I have not found that acknowledging and expressing anger has made me “better at it” as to become angry at anything and everything. Over the last 40 years, since I was in Greece, I have allowed myself to be angry when there is reason for it and have sounded off but I have found that it has never been in trivial occasions. Incidentally before I went to Greece I had suffered off and on from an ulcer. After the Greek holiday I never had any ulcer problems ever again. So giving myself permission to stand my ground and sound off if necessary when I am confronted by abuse is good for my health. The arguments you bring up are very typical of a Western Anglo-Saxon culture and they are myths IMO.

    You can see for yourself here: http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/
    In the USA and the UK, where anger is a “no no”, there is a greater degree of violence by orders of magnitude (3X and 2X respectively) than there is in Greece where anger is ok.
     
  12. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    Here a comment you made in a previous post is relevant
    It all boils down to perception.

    If you read this carefully you find it means something different to first impressions.

    Greece tops the list for heart disease and stroke deaths as a result of smoking and obesity, as the latest OECD health report reveals. Data from 34 countries shows that Greeks come last in terms of quality of life and life expectancy among countries of the European South. –

    Incidence and deaths from are two vastly different things and the number of death in one country cannot reasonably be compared with another, without taking into account the availability and accessibility that people in different countries have to health care. In Australia, the US, Northern European countries, Canada for example, less people die of a heart attack than in Greece but these people can better afford health care. Greece has been crippled since they joined the EU. They were expected to raise their standards to match the affluent northern Europeans and they are a very small country with no natural resources. They make their incomes from tourism. So they had to borrow and then when they got into financial strife they were force to refinance and refinance and each time the capital is magnified.

    Furthermore they are being treated appallingly IMO by the other countries, especially Germany. They are essentially Europe’s back door and many refugees and others wanting to migrate to Europe from the Middle East and Asia go through Greece. Common sense would tell you that this country needs support and funding to do the policing job of sorting out real migrants from terrorists properly. Instead of that they are being dealt out austerity measures and have had to should the policing problem out of their own funds. One million refugees have gone into Europe in the last 12 months. How is a financially crippled country going to deal with this. The result is a highly stressed people. If there is ever evidence that it is stress and not diet and exercise etc., that is the problem of disease, Greece is it. And the record is clear, life expectancy for Greeks in the 1970s was one of the highest in Europe! That is one of the poorest European countries had the best health!
     
  13. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    Let’s take a second look though at the claim.

    “Greece tops the list for heart disease and stroke deaths as a result of smoking and obesity, as the latest OECD health report reveals.”

    This is cunning in its deception. What they have done is to take the death rate from heart attacks and correlate it with the claims of the pharmaceutically driven medical industry. The idea that smoking and obesity are key factors in heart disease. The physical causes ha, ha!

    Greece maintains the highest level of smoking among OECD countries with 33% of adults smoking daily. Greece also tops the list of Mediterranean countries for obesity with 19.6% of the population facing serious health issues due to high weight. And given that Greeks don’t just party for a few hours, it is common for say a wedding feast to last all weekend, night and day.

    Clearly “the scientists” have massaged the data.. to get something that justifies the claims that help sell drugs. The truth is different.

    Greeks smoke like chimneys always and they were obese back in 1974 as I very well remember and they were healthier than other Europeans. In fact studies were done to try and justify diet and heart disease. Then they were saying “they got the Mediterranean diet that is why they got very low heart disease”. Now they are say “they are obese and smoke too much that is why they got the worse heart disease”. Bull!

    I have searched and searched for prevalence and incidence rates and they are hard to find. I have seen figures in the past. You will find that the incidence of heart disease in Greece verses other first world countries is low. I found figures for diabetes Greece 0.2%, EU 4%, UK 4.4%, USA 8.3%. As a lot of heart disease is associated with diabetes this shouts loudly that the death rate figures are a distortion. Sure Greece has suffered serious health problems since the austerity measures, so stress is mega.
     
  14. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    This matter however is very relevant to TMS because the truth is that ALL disease and not just pain, is stress based.

    Anger is sure involved in many cases of coronary heart attacks but the matter is not simple.

    Where there are cheats, and from what I have seen it is the vast majority of cases, the person is “prepped” for heart attack and that is done using anger. The person is repeatedly angered, over and over so that they are forced to live with anger. What that does is cause damage to the inner walls of arteries.

    The reason is because anger raises the metabolism and that means heart rate goes up and so does blood pressure. Normally we should experience higher metabolism due to either fear or anger in short episodes not over the long term, eg days or weeks. If the blood pressure is high for days or weeks then the blood is screaming around at top speed and normally the blood is travelling at about 80km/hr so with anger it is possibly 100 or more km/hr. This damages the inner epithelium tissues of the arteries and the body has to repair the damage. As the anger is ongoing the damage is repaired during high metabolic conditions and thus while there is high blood pressure and rushing blood going past. Repairs means a build-up of loosely held plague. This is a key to the problem.

    If after a week the person is either caused sudden terror using a concealed threat or violated in some way, often real issues are not consciously obvious, as to become over angered, then the blood pressure rises sharply and suddenly. One way to over anger someone is to use a concealed threat to cause fear at the same time as being angered. Thus there are two actions in the body, both of which raise the metabolism greatly. Toxic people call this "manufacture rage". The result is that the plaques to become dislodged and depending on where the plaques are they may cause a blockage in an important artery such as a coronary artery. And the coronary arteries are greatly affected because don’t forget the heart is working hard during this time.

    I found that different problems are posed in causing a stroke but in the end either anger or more commonly sudden terror is used. And the threats are normally concealed so the person may not even be aware of the threat only sudden feeling hot or having high energy. If anger is used then they will be aware that they are angry but not always able to see the true issues or that they are not really as angry as they think they are (owing to additional subliminal fear).

    Basically it is the unraveling of a society that is at the heart of health problems and the rise of toxic people in the population. These are psychopathic people, who play games with other people’s lives for a number of reason, manipulation and control, revenge, “to make someone go away permanently” and commonly also for narcissistic supply, i.e., to get pleasure from another person’s suffering.

    So-called "functional psychopaths" or "successful psychopaths" are the biggest problem and that problem is in every country, in every society. The level of disease is the clear indicator. In the last 50 years disease has sky-rocketed. Where there are other burdens, such as financial stress, of course the problems are magnified and we can see that in many other countries other than Greece. The good news is that you can overcome the odds and live in good health and have a long life when you understand what disease is really all about.
     
  15. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Kyrani,

    What I'm trying to illustrate is that there is a direct link between heart related illnesses and the likes of stress and anger. I agree, the OECD are barking up the wrong tree when they've blamed it solely on smoking. Quite often people who are stressed or anxious rely on smoking to find some form of relief. So of course, they will blame smoking because they haven't identified the root cause.

    I think we've both expressed our points and we can put this discussion to rest. Thanks.
     
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  16. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    Awareness is a very important issue here. If you start feeling excessively angry there may be more than meets the eye. If you feel suddenly hot, more than you normally would if angry, then certainly you are being manipulated in some way. But just knowing this can help you control yourself and what you do.

    There are times when another person is acting out of fear but if it is toxic, it's not out of fear. However if you walk away make sure you don't just hold your breath and count to ten.. You have to address the issue somehow. Sometimes you can see that the other person is just trying to manipulate you or mess with your mind and you can easily dismiss this as "their problem".

    If you need to defend yourself, I found the best defense is to take action in the mind.
    Have a look at the last image near the bottom of this page.
    https://kyrani99.wordpress.com/2012/03/15/solutions-what-you-can-do-to-prevent-heart-problems/

    100% I agree.

    I don't think it is a case that we allow others to treat us badly.
    This is something I had thought for a long time too but it is not true. My late, toxic husband admitted that "if you can get the other person to accept that they are responsible for your actions, then you can do anything you like and not have to take any responsibility for it"

    In a sense standing your ground and standing up for yourself can feel like disallowing but really it is a defense. You are affirming to yourself more so than the other that you are worthy and that the offense is garbage. The important aspect of this defense is that you take away the juice that they are after, the "I'll want to hurt you, to see your suffering and get my kicks from it". Deny them that and you have delivered an atom bomb.
     
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  17. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest

    I meant in the sense that when we have self-worth, we don't allow people to treat us badly, i.e. we stop being a doormat and are able to assert/protect ourselves (we will still come across people who do us wrong, but we change our reaction to them). This also means that we are better at letting go of toxic relationships and less likely to let other people affect our confidence, etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2015
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  18. kyrani99

    kyrani99 Peer Supporter

    You are right that once we can appreciate our self-worth, we don't allow others to treat us badly. We can assert ourselves and stand our ground. However the many ways that toxic people operate are very sly and not obvious. They exploit relationship and the ability that exists within relationship for people to perceive ideas mentally presented.

    It is sometimes difficult to get out of a toxic relationship because the other party is very deceptive and presents themselves as your best friend. They need to gain the other person's trust and confidence in order to remain close to them and thus be able to hurt them for a long time.
     
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  19. Walt Oleksy

    Walt Oleksy Beloved Grand Eagle

    I've been told I am a very sensitive person. It can cause TMS and gave me back pain, but I consider it a blessing in disguise because through what Dr. Sarno calls "TMS penicillin," the back pain went away and I became not only a healthier person but a happier one, through the self-knowledge and self-acceptance of TMS and the Structured Educational Program. One of the best things I learned is to forgive. Forgive those who we believe have trespassed against us, and forgive ourselves as well.

    Merry Christmas to you all.
     
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  20. Simplicity

    Simplicity Guest

    Well said, Walt. Merry Christmas!
     
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