A leap of faith required?

D

Dusty

New Member
Hi, I’m new to this site. I read Dr. Sarno’s Healing Back Pain and am convinced it’s a thing and am also thinking that I have TMS. However, my belief isn’t full, yet.
The question is, how do we really know? I suppose seeing a TMS doctor is best but I don’t think any are near me.
And there is something I’m struggling with. Education and belief are required for real healing to begin and I get that. But what if the problem IS structural and in our “belief” that it’s TMS we damage ourselves more when “ignoring the pain” and engage in physical activity?

Pascal’s advice on belief in God was that it is better to believe because there is nothing to lose: if He is real then you go to heaven and if not then so what, you were just wrong.
But if we are wrong about TMS then we do indeed have something to lose (structural integrity of the body).
Do you see what I’m getting at?
 
What a great step you’ve made reading Dr. Sarno!
Now how about working on the Structural Education Program. You don’t have to have 100% belief. What you need is to feel you can and are worth investing 100% in yourself. It takes dedication to follow this road. Requires a willingness to explore vulnerability, to become more open about ideas and to believe that we simply haven’t fully understood the science of the human body yet - an open mind. That’s all it really takes!

Good luck!
 
Hi@Dusty,
If the structural has been ruled out (pathologies, broken bones, infections, tumors etc) and doctors have not been able to provide an etiology for your symptoms, then it has to be brain based and the truth of the matter is brain induced chronic "conditions" are ridiculously common and far more likely. Our thoughts and emotions directly affect our physiology. Renewal of the same thoughts yields "chronicity" of symptoms in the body. The doubt you are describing will keep you stuck. It's normal to have to doubt in the beginning and it gradually shrinks over time but if you harbor ideas that there's something physically wrong in your body tissue. you won't even get out of the starting gate...it's called "fence sitting" in the mindbody field. A person can stay on the fence, all the while going through the motions of programs, coaching, tools etc etc for years and even forever. Don't fall into that trap. It's a horrible waste of time and even money. At some point logic has a limit and you have to let go and accept. Science and medicine won't "heal" you..the belief that you are already fine and acceptance that it's just tms will. If you feel that the only way you will be able to get off the fence, is if you have an MD in the mindbody field confirm it, then it's worth doing. Most meet over zoom.
 
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I'm in agreement with @Cactusflower and @miffybunny. An excellent way to regain physical activity if you're fearful is to engage a personal trainer who understands and works with the neuroscience behind chronic pain and is properly trained to push people with fear and chronic pain past their comfort levels.

This is what I did at age 60 and it was the second best thing I ever did for myself in all those decades of my life. The best thing I ever did was to fully embrace the TMS concept when I discovered Dr Sarno that same year. I overcame my lifelong TMS including neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, dizziness, and neuro symptoms, among others.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
I'm in agreement with @Cactusflower and @miffybunny. An excellent way to regain physical activity if you're fearful is to engage a personal trainer who understands and works with the neuroscience behind chronic pain and is properly trained to push people with fear and chronic pain past their comfort levels.

This is what I did at age 60 and it was the second best thing I ever did for myself in all those decades of my life. The best thing I ever did was to fully embrace the TMS concept when I discovered Dr Sarno that same year. I overcame my lifelong TMS including neck pain, back pain, shoulder pain, dizziness, and neuro symptoms, among others.
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Do you mean by overcoming coping, thus technically still experiencing those same symptoms, just caring less? IIRC you still have symptoms.
 
shakalaka said:
Do you mean by overcoming coping, thus technically still experiencing those same symptoms, just caring less? IIRC you still have symptoms.
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Hello @shakalaka

There is much more to recovering from symptoms than just “caring less”, but that is part of it. You must also begin to recognize why your brain feels the need to use symptoms as the message that an internal part (s) of you needs care. If you are new to TMS and how the mind/body and pain or symptoms connection works, it is recommended to read a book by Dr. Sarno to begin understanding how stress, personality and emotional all play their part.
 
shakalaka said:
IIRC you still have symptoms.
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We all still have symptoms that come and go because TMS is a primitive brain mechanism we all have, which was designed to repress negative emotions and give us annoying, but harmless, symptoms so that we stay alert for danger. It works for shit in the modern world and it has been getting worse until it is now being called "an epidemic of chronic conditions" since 2020.

It's also possible that unrelenting emotional stress can make us sick. I developed sudden onset RA in 2020 as a result of intense stress, but I manage it (= no pain or swelling) with a low dose (and no side effects) of the most basic medication, and for the most part it does not impact my life. I also was fortunate to have the freedom to eventually divest myself of the two sources of intense stress from 2020. When I get an RA flare now (pain and swelling) it is a sure sign that I've developed an unresolved emotional conflict that my TMS brain has repressed, which is when I employ my techniques to bring it into the open. The flares go away in 24 hours or less.

There are many different ways to manage TMS symptoms, and I personally employ several of them and have written extensively about them. Therapeutic writing is the primary one for serious setbacks and flares. General mindfulness, instant calming techniques, self-talk, and an automatic assumption that most other symptoms are not worth worrying about are the others.

Did you ever do the Structured Educational Program back in 2019? I'm not even sure you ever read a book by Dr Sarno, or, if you did, that you understood what he is teaching us. I had the impression that you did not do anything to learn about emotional component of this work and that you had given up in frustration. Your other post today also indicates you still don't understand this work.

As @Cactusflower said, read, or re-read Dr Sarno. Then do the Structured Educational Program on the main TMSWiki.org site. It's free and there's not even any kind of registration.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
We all still have symptoms that come and go because TMS is a primitive brain mechanism we all have, which was designed to repress negative emotions and give us annoying, but harmless, symptoms so that we stay alert for danger. It works for shit in the modern world and it has been getting worse until it is now being called "an epidemic of chronic conditions" since 2020.

It's also possible that unrelenting emotional stress can make us sick. I developed sudden onset RA in 2020 as a result of intense stress, but I manage it (= no pain or swelling) with a low dose (and no side effects) of the most basic medication, and for the most part it does not impact my life. I also was fortunate to have the freedom to eventually divest myself of the two sources of intense stress from 2020. When I get an RA flare now (pain and swelling) it is a sure sign that I've developed an unresolved emotional conflict that my TMS brain has repressed, which is when I employ my techniques to bring it into the open. The flares go away in 24 hours or less.

There are many different ways to manage TMS symptoms, and I personally employ several of them and have written extensively about them. Therapeutic writing is the primary one for serious setbacks and flares. General mindfulness, instant calming techniques, self-talk, and an automatic assumption that most other symptoms are not worth worrying about are the others.

Did you ever do the Structured Educational Program back in 2019? I'm not even sure you ever read a book by Dr Sarno, or, if you did, that you understood what he is teaching us. I had the impression that you did not do anything to learn about emotional component of this work and that you had given up in frustration. Your other post today also indicates you still don't understand this work.

As @Cactusflower said, read, or re-read Dr Sarno. Then do the Structured Educational Program on the main TMSWiki.org site. It's free and there's not even any kind of registration.
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Sorry for not replying earlier. Why go defensive though and attack with assumptions of ignorance or "not understanding"? Yes, I have read at least couple of books from Sarno, Schubiner, Gordon etc. The educational program, I have completed at least a couple of weeks, but it does not resonate with me well as it builds upon "They can't find anything wrong" it seems, which mostly has simple and obvious relationships between symptoms and emotional repressions or fear. For me, it is not so obvious as it is more of 24/7 thing where there are no emotional triggers as simple as reliving some kind of trauma over and over in the body, or fearing something to do physically with the body.

For me it just is as simple as waking up in the morning and trying to cope daily with the symptoms, sometimes easier, sometimes much harder; sometimes affects the mood, sometimes it does not, but it defintely is not a "fun" way to live.
 
If you are doing nothing else about the pain but worrying, then what do you have to lose by doing the TMS inner investigation work?
If you are coming up with reasons not too that's a good sign that it's not going to hurt to do some digging into your mind for hidden anger and rage.
 
If your symptoms are persisting and constant (even 24 7) that's a sure sign that doubt is reigning supreme. While you may be experiencing emotional flashbacks (activated trauma), my hunch is that you are still stuck in Level 1 doubt, which means that you are harboring some qualm that there is a pathology or structural issue. The intellectualization is masking doubt (lack of belief). It's the difference between thinking vs. believing. This keeps people on the fence and unable to move from what Sarno termed Pillar 1 , the knowledge pillar, to Pillar 2, the implementation. Even people who are extremely well versed in the topic can have gaps that cause stuckness. We also have blind spots with regards to our own psychology. Many times we think our thoughts are truth so the doubt hides out in plain site, until these thoughts are held up to scrutiny. Imo, the first priority is the cognitive piece and the false beliefs. Once that smokescreen is cleared out, you can address the emotional side. I personally had to do a lot of work in the emotional area, as well as making practical changes, as Jan referenced in her comment.
 
miffybunny said:
If your symptoms are persisting and constant (even 24 7) that's a sure sign that doubt is reigning supreme. While you may be experiencing emotional flashbacks (activated trauma), my hunch is that you are still stuck in Level 1 doubt, which means that you are harboring some qualm that there is a pathology or structural issue. The intellectualization is masking doubt (lack of belief). It's the difference between thinking vs. believing. This keeps people on the fence and unable to move from what Sarno termed Pillar 1 , the knowledge pillar, to Pillar 2, the implementation. Even people who are extremely well versed in the topic can have gaps that cause stuckness. We also have blind spots with regards to our psychology. Many times we think our thoughts are truth so the doubt hides out in plain site, until these thoughts are help up to scrutiny. Imo, the first priority is the cognitive piece and the false beliefs. Once that smokescreen is cleared out, you can address the emotional side. I personally had to do a lot of work in the emotional area, as well as making practical changes, as Jan referenced in her comment.
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For me I just plug onward even while worrying it's something real. I know myself and know that I will never not worry. But if I can clear the symptoms with TMS work then the worry will go away.
 
Yes @Boobie, because you have suspended your disbelief enough to soldier onward. That can be an excellent way to counter health anxiety and hyper focus. You decided to let go and trust this process. After all, we know it works!! "Certaintude eventually!"
 
miffybunny said:
Yes @Boobie, because you have suspended your disbelief enough to soldier onward. That can be an excellent way to counter health anxiety and hyper focus. You decided to let go and trust this process. After all, we know it works!! "Certaintude eventually!"
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Absolutely!
 
miffybunny said:
If your symptoms are persisting and constant (even 24 7) that's a sure sign that doubt is reigning supreme. While you may be experiencing emotional flashbacks (activated trauma), my hunch is that you are still stuck in Level 1 doubt, which means that you are harboring some qualm that there is a pathology or structural issue. The intellectualization is masking doubt (lack of belief). It's the difference between thinking vs. believing. This keeps people on the fence and unable to move from what Sarno termed Pillar 1 , the knowledge pillar, to Pillar 2, the implementation. Even people who are extremely well versed in the topic can have gaps that cause stuckness. We also have blind spots with regards to our own psychology. Many times we think our thoughts are truth so the doubt hides out in plain site, until these thoughts are held up to scrutiny. Imo, the first priority is the cognitive piece and the false beliefs. Once that smokescreen is cleared out, you can address the emotional side. I personally had to do a lot of work in the emotional area, as well as making practical changes, as Jan referenced in her comment.
Click to expand...

I feel healthy otherwise though. I have given up on the idea that there is a pathology or structural issue, it has not lead anywhere, just anxiety. I have made peace with the fact that we are not our thoughts and there is an inner bully trying to sabotage a peaceful life. Emotional work does reveal blind spots sometimes. Outcome independence and indifference for months not days would be great, but it is not easy when there is no definite progress or patterns, nome sayan?
 
shakalaka said:
I feel healthy otherwise though. I have given up on the idea that there is a pathology or structural issue, it has not lead anywhere, just anxiety. I have made peace with the fact that we are not our thoughts and there is an inner bully trying to sabotage a peaceful life. Emotional work does reveal blind spots sometimes. Outcome independence and indifference for months not days would be great, but it is not easy when there is no definite progress or patterns, nome sayan?
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Your inner bully isn't really trying to bully you. In Sarno theory, it's trying to "protect" you from feeling certain emotions. In the case of TMS, keep you away from feeling anger and rage which in our society we are not supposed to feel.
Have you found your hidden anger and rage? Not just blind spots but these particular blind spots?
 
shakalaka said:
I feel healthy otherwise though. I have given up on the idea that there is a pathology or structural issue, it has not lead anywhere, just anxiety. I have made peace with the fact that we are not our thoughts and there is an inner bully trying to sabotage a peaceful life. Emotional work does reveal blind spots sometimes. Outcome independence and indifference for months not days would be great, but it is not easy when there is no definite progress or patterns, nome sayan?
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Yes, I do. It means that the communication of the symptoms have not yet been received. Until that happens, they continue to nag us and nudge us towards what we want. If the inner bully is dominating your psyche, then the symptoms are also empathizing with you and your task is to practice self compassion. There is more work to be done.
 
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