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The Quantum Doctor...Very interesting!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by MsMetaP, May 14, 2012.

  1. MsMetaP

    MsMetaP Peer Supporter

    Dr. Amit Goswami will speak at the THE 2012 CONFERENCE FOR CONSCIOUSNESS AND HUMAN EVOLUTION In London during August. His topic:

    The Quantum Doctor: a new paradigm of health and healing

    Bridging Quantum science with the quantum body. Practices and integration that bring Self-Awareness in the World.

    If any field needs new direction, medicine does. It's most popular model, allopathy, leaves most of the human condition out and accepts blindly the everything-is-matter dogma of scientific materialism. Meanwhile our medical costs skyrocket. In this lecture, quantum physicist Amit Goswami will introduce an integrative medicine that unifies allopathy and all the alternative medicine practices that treat the non-material aspects of the human condition. In Goswami's vision healing is ' appropriately" holistic, not just a cure for symptoms. And because of the emphasis on alternative medicine whenever appropriate, the cost of medicine is much reduced. The medicine of the future empowers people and encourages prevention at the same time.

    http://www.amitgoswami.org/
     
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  2. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    I think there is a natural tendency sometimes for people with TMS to continue to explore other modalities, but I'm not sure if that is always helpful. If you find motivation in this and it makes you feel good that's great, but this is not a PPD/TMS thing. Fundamentally, recovery from PPD is simple. We need to accept the diagnosis completely, erasing fear and doubt. We need to think psychologically resume regular activity. To help us do the other things and to prevent relapses (and also for the quality of our life), we need to do some psychological work. This tried and true approach has been proven to work.

    My recovery went well and that's all I've ever done. I don't think we need to completely change our view of medicine and science to get better. We just need to understand that emotions are what is causing our pain, which is supported by medical trials and science. Trying to reinvent physics, theology and medicine is just another distraction. It is our cagey unconscious, trying to pull us away from the real work that we need to do by getting us all caught up in exciting fantasies.

    TMS/PPD practitioners such as John Sarno, MD, Howard Schubiner, MD, David Clarke, MD, and David Schechter, MD, all wear their institutional affiliations with pride and are very proud members of the medical community. I think it's important to draw a distinction between the TMS/PPD approach and the work of a retired physicist from Oregon who is not trained in medicine but seems to think that his personal interpretation of quantum physics is capable of bringing about an entire paradigm shift in medicine.

    Are there problems with modern medicine? Sure, there are, but there is far more right with it than wrong with it. While medicine routinely errs in how it treats chronic pain, we do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that it isn't a coincidence that Drs Schubiner, Clarke, and Geitzen have all written blog entries entitled "Medicine's Blind Spot." Rather than thinking that the entire paradigm of modern medicine needs to be reevaluated, they simply see a blind spot that needs to be fixed.

    I bring this up because I feel that treating PPD is all about the basics. I think it is good to read widely, but while it may be tempting to blow it up to a big exploration, integrating quantum physics and revolutionizing physics with new age spirituality, I think that to do so is a distraction from what we really need to be focusing on. In the end, getting better is just about overcoming our fear by recognizing that this is merely psychophysiological and getting out there to enjoy our lives.
     
  3. IrishSceptic

    IrishSceptic Podcast Visionary

    people who use the word 'Quantum' are usually quacks unless of course they work at CERN.
     
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  4. James59

    James59 Well known member

    Amit Goswami is a bona fide quantum physicist. Several years ago I read his book The Self-Aware Universe where he argues that all of the seeming paradoxes of quantum physics can be resolved if we accept consciousness, not matter, as the foundation of reality. It's a radical concept to the materialist, but no more radical to our day than the Copernican theory that the Earth revolved around the Sun was 500 years ago.

    Unfortunately, 21st Century biology and medicine are still largely based on 19th Century physics. The idea that the mind has any real influence over the body is fairly new, and still not generally accepted, but it is starting to catch the attention of mainstream thought. Who among us here has not encountered resistance to the concept of TMS? It, too, is a radical departure from conventional medical theory! Yet I would argue that TMS theory is more compatible with the idea of a consciousness-based universe than with the materialist view that all physical symptoms must have a physical cause.

    So keep an open mind. You wouldn't be on this forum if you weren't open minded enough to learn that the mind can cause physical pain. Be open minded enough to consider that what you know about the mind and TMS may just be the tip of an enormous mental universe.

    It's funny, but that's not unlike what the earth-centric advocates said about the apparent retrograde motion of the planets! They said it was just a detail that could be worked out without having to adopt the idea that the sun was the center of everything. There are several examples in history of how mankind's concept of reality changed dramatically not because of something obvious, but because of subtle inconsistencies with the accepted theories.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  5. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    I recently listened to Deepak Chopra's audio book and although I found it interesting, if somewhat radical, I wasn't able resonate with it as fully as I can with TMS.

    Forest has a valid point, most sufferers always try to find alternatives solutions, whether that's a mechanism to distract them from facing their fear, or a thought something easier exist, I don't know.

    From my stand point and many others, one size doesn't fit all, we all work to finding a solution we can best work with. One could argue as long as we are able to activate our natural healing mechanism and reach the desired out come it doesn't matter how we got there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
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  6. IrishSceptic

    IrishSceptic Podcast Visionary

    I know a very intelligent guy who is into Flat earthism so I'm no stranger to open minded ness. I just want to urge caution when investigating other ideas. Never stump up cash without understanding everything, you can't be careful enough when the internet comes into play.
     
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  7. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    That would be my take, too. Serious quantum mechanics have been around the 20s, and quantum mysticism has been around for just about as long.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

    I imagine that we'll be seeing a bit less of it in the coming years as the "Law of Attraction" folks have been using it to justify their theories recently and people are realizing that a quantum-style law of attraction just doesn't work. You can't just believe large amounts of wealth into existence, and my bet is that with a lot of people out there who had bad experiences with disappointing results, people will be less likely to get excited about quantum mysticism in the coming years. I'm seeing more and more would-be gurus popping up saying, "has the law of attraction not worked for you? Buy my book and I'll show you the right way to do it."

    A good friend of mine is a quantum physicist. As with most scientists, he was quite an open minded guy. We could discuss his research in some depth because I have a masters in math, including a specialty in probability and some coursework in dynamical systems. I also have some basic training in physics (random fact: I got to the semifinals of the US physics team when I was in high school) and quite a bit of training in economic theory (which is inspired by physics).

    The reason that Goswami's ideas seem so ridiculous to me is as follows. Quantum mechanics is basically a collection of equations. These equations describe waveforms and probability fields - basically other matter and energy. Every term in these equations has a very precise definition. But nowhere in any of the equations is there a term representing "consciousness." Therefore, consciousness simply doesn't appear in quantum mechanics. There really is no grounds in the actual equations to assert a connection between consciousness and quantum.

    Therefore, for anyone to assert that consciousness can control quantum mechanical phenomena seems quite ludicrous to me. The idea that one could extend such a hypothesized connection to redesign medicine makes me think that either monetary or psychological issues (messiah complex, etc.) are at play in Goswami's motivation.

    The thing that bothers me the most about Goswami is that rather than marketing his ideas to people who have graduate level or even undergraduate level training in quantum mechanics or the fields that build off of it, he makes money off of people who don't have the tools to evaluate his theories. Books written for laypeople can give nice pictures and can give you the flavor, but until you know the math, you really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to quantum. The mathematics behind quantum are fiendishly complex. Yet, Goswami likely makes huge amounts of money off of people who essentially can't defend themselves and can't evaluate what he is saying. That seems dangerous to me.
     
  8. James59

    James59 Well known member

    I don't read pseudoscience books by non physicists. I agree they're mostly junk. What I know of quantum physics I read in books written by actual physicists. Almost all of them admit that consciousness cannot be separated from the principles of quantum mechanics, but they aren't clear on why - probably because nobody has yet uncovered the source of consciousness.

    Some scientists argue as you do that because the math works, there's no need to explore any further. Others argue that consciousness is the elephant in the room that some scientists are too afraid to talk about because it upsets their materialistic view of reality. The most recent book I read was Quantum Enigma - Physics Encounters Consciousness by two UC Santa Cruz physics professors. They argue the latter point.

    Some quotes from quantum physicists on their website:

    "Anyone not shocked by quantum mechanics has not yet understood it."-Niels Bohr

    "Observations not only disturb what is to be measured, they produce it." -Pascual Jordan

    "When the province of physical theory was extended to encompass microscopic phenomena through the creation of quantum mechanics, the concept of consciousness came to the fore again. It was not possible to formulate the laws of quantum mechanics in a fully consistent way without reference to the consciousness." -Eugene Wigner

    "The doctrine that the world is made up of objects whose existence is independent of human consciousness turns out to be in conflict with quantum mechanics and with facts established by experiment." -Bernard d'Espagnat
     
  9. North Star

    North Star Beloved Grand Eagle

    I've been thinking about this thread the past few days...especially Irish Skeptic's comment about Quantum being a key work for quacks. I've pondered over these subjects and was actually hoping you'd chime in more, Forest, which you did...thank you!

    I have a few good friends who have spent a LOT of $$ in a "quantum biofeedback machine" and also in obtaining certification in an "energy" sort of healing modality. I also have some friends who pursued The Secret sort of stuff. (And yeah, it had me wondering too.)

    I try to keep an open mind but have concluded any favorable outcomes are placebo or nature running its course. I especially like what you said Forest about the distraction this stuff can bring. I see this when I hear a friend or family member tell me about the latest trend. My poor sister is on her umpteenth PT...but WAIT....SHE has a program that REALLY works. I just yawn. If only I had a nickle for every time I heard that.

    Now having said all that...and being a bear of little brain...I like what Mike says about using whatever to activate our healing mechanism. Of course, the rub here is I find it morally reprehensible when quacks prey upon desperate people for financial gain. I heard a blatant example of this not long ago. My new friends recently moved from Nepal. Part of why they moved here was to gain treatment for their severely handicapped son who had Cerebral Palsy. They spent thousands of dollars on so called energy healing. I wonder if this poor young man had had access to proper therapy if he would have fared better. What's saddest of all is that he died 2 days after arriving here in the states. (He was 18.)

    Finally, I heard about the C.R.A.P. test the other day from a totally different source. (Love it when that happens.) I just pulled this off the net -
    * Currency -

    o How recent is the information?

    o How recently has the website been updated?

    o Is it current enough for your topic?

    * Reliability -

    o What kind of information is included in the resource?

    o Is content of the resource primarily opinion? Is is balanced?

    o Does the creator provide references or sources for data or quotations?

    * Authority -

    o Who is the creator or author?

    o What are the credentials?

    o Who is the published or sponsor?

    o Are they reputable?

    o What is the publisher’s interest (if any) in this information?

    o Are there advertisements on the website?

    * Purpose/Point of View -

    o Is this fact or opinion?

    o Is it biased?

    o Is the creator/author trying to sell you something?
     
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  10. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    This is well worth repeating. Forest and North Star both know that I am a big fan of the power of the placebo effect and think that it should be honestly researched and promoted for exactly what it is, and nothing more. Of course there would be very little, if any, profit in that...
     
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  11. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    I've always pondered this question regarding a sugar pill used as a placebo.

    Are patients charged over the odds for the placebo pill? Rather than charged a minimal amount. I imagine, they charge alot as it would lose its weight, psychologically speaking if a minimal fee was charged.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
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  12. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    Sad, but true. Changing the human-wide mindset of "I want them to fix me" won't happen in my lifetime.

    I realized quickly, doing this work, that I was using placebos on my own. Like the extra Vit C and the echinacea that I take for two weeks before April 15, to boost my immune system for those last two brutal weeks before Tax Day. I know there's doubt about the efficacy of either one, but I saw that I was using them as tools that help my brain visualize a stronger immune system. Once I realized that, it became easier for me to visualize healthier outcomes in all kinds of ways.
     
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  13. James59

    James59 Well known member

    It might be worthwhile here to consider the question, What is the nature of reality? More specifically, what is the relationship between matter and consciousness?

    There are actually three competing beliefs on this question, and I find, as this thread demonstrates, that those who hold differing views tend to talk past each other. People have a tendency to build their entire world view around one of these three:

    1. Matter is everything and consciousness is a happy byproduct of complex interactions of material forces.

    2. Consciousness is everything and matter is a product or projection of consciousness.

    3. Matter and consciousness are two separate realms that somehow manage to interact. This viewpoint is called the "Cartesian split."

    As you may have guessed from my previous comments, I subscribe to the second theory. I won't go into details just yet, but I find serious flaws in numbers one and three.

    I'm curious which viewpoint other forum members hold, or do you have a fourth category? Since we all agree that TMS is primarily an effect of the mind, a discussion of the relationship between matter and consciousness seems relevant to the subject of this website.
     
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  14. North Star

    North Star Beloved Grand Eagle

    James, that's a really great post! And funny...I was thinking about these sort of things when I woke up this morning. Actually, I've been mulling over these sort of things for the past few days.

    I picked up a copy of Dr. Wayne Dyer's book, "I Can See Clearly Now" the other day at a yard sale. (And then here he dies the next day!) Anyway, if you're familiar with Dyer's writings, it is clear he is in camp #2.

    And I? I'm not certain. (And that's part of why I picked up his book.) I certainly recognize the dualism you refer to with #3....especially since I see this as Mindy/Body where those with a more spiritual slant would refer to it as Mind/Spirit/Body.

    Depending on my mood and how badly I feel beaten by some heavy circumstances I've been under for some time - I wander about. I guess you can count me in with the X Files crowd - I want to believe. But I'm just not sure.

    But at 51, I see a lot of stuff just unfolds with or without my help. And I chose, more often than not, to adopt an upbeat outlook in the face of difficulty. Not because I'm chose to deny the difficulty but rather, it just makes for a happier me.

    I'm certain that this very conflict I deal with is part of what's fueling my TMS. My debate is sort of between "let go and let God" vs "let go and work my ass off to achieve the results I want..." and THEN, well, I get exhausted.

    Interesting topic and I appreciate seeing diverse opinions being share respectfully with one another.
     

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