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Nerve Conduction Studies etc.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by chlorocala, Jan 8, 2015.

  1. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Here are my 2 cents.

    When I was referred to the neurologist for the nerve conduction study with CTS as a diagnosis (which I never believed in the first place, because CTS does not cause involuntary contractions of the fingers, per all the medical publications that I was able to find), the doc told me that I had a clear degradation of electric signal in both hands, bad enough to be referred for a surgery. When I asked him how confident he was in the CTS diagnosis, he gave me 75% of his confidence level. I asked, what about the other 25%? His response was that 75% was more than 25%. I assume that meant that if they flip the coin we should go for the tails. Or maybe heads - depending on what side of the coin looks shinier to us.

    Then, after my continuous questioning about contractions of the tendons, he told me that he had a patient once who had higher level of degradation in the hand that was pain-free, while the less degraded hand was actually in severe pain. Does this sound similar to the famous MRI of the healthy backs study that Dr. Sarno quotes in his book?

    To me, that talk with the neurologist made it very clear that nerve conduction study means nothing.

    Two months after that appointment I read Sarno's book. Three months later, the same doc confirmed that I had Complex Regional Pain Syndrome with dystonia, a diagnosis that I had to pull out of him, by laying the symptoms in front of him and asking him to google for CRPS and Budapest Protocol (a diagnostic technique). The reason why I wanted him to confirm that I had CRPS was very simple: Sarno mentioned in his book that CRPS (aka RDS) is TMS.

    Once I got the official diagnosis from the official doctor (amazing what kind of reaffirmations our brain would need to accept the TMS diagnosis!), I started healing. I am still struggling mightily with dystonia and random bouts of pain throughout my body, but my hands are about 70% pain-free. Isn't that a confirmation that Sarno is right and that permanent nerve damage is a patented BS? And BS here does not mean Bachelor of Science, it means exactly what you must suspect ;).
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
    MWsunin12 likes this.
  2. MWsunin12

    MWsunin12 Beloved Grand Eagle

    I had shingles down my right arm in February this year. The pain was very memorable, countless sleepless nights, and I was pretty useless for a month. Then, I still had nerve symptoms down that arm and still have a numbness occasionally in two fingers.
    But, what has made me believe even more in TMS is that, because of my anxiousness about post-shingles pain, I started having nerve reactions on
    my legs, feet, other arm. It comes and goes.

    When I talked to my GP, she wanted to put me on Lyrica and Gabapentin…so an antidepressant and an anti seizure medicine. I refused both, because it only confirms to me that it's my BRAIN sending the messages to my nerves to react.
    Unless you have had a severe injury, I don't think it's all that easy to truly damage or impinge a nerve, but if you google nerve stuff it can totally freak you out. Stay away from it.

    Also, remember, if your nerves were damaged or impinged, as Dr. Sarno says, you wouldn't feel anything.
    And, damage wouldn't come and go, or move around.

    I'm sticking with TMS. Some days are a true challenge, but what's more eye-opening than my issues are the TRUE ISSUES people are left with following unnecessary surgeries or withdrawal from meds like Gabapentin and other drugs for "nerves."

    We can do this. BTW, I took a 5 day vacation and didn't think about it once…so I must not have felt it.

    TG957 likes this.
  3. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Lyrica and Neurontin seem to be the great default drugs for every problem.
  4. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    TG957, you summed up most of what I see every day in a very succinct way, well said, you will help some people here with your words.

    The labels are the damaging effect, I talked about this in BPPH, the "notions" of illness. Nerves regenerate unless they are in the spine and brain which is why they're encased in bone. "Professionals" name things like ankylosing spondylitis, and, CRPS, CTS, et al, and they do great damage with their words because fear is the only driver of ill health.

    Belief in an errant diagnosis perpetuates the suffering and doctors are the main problem in expanding that suffering. They simply don't know about Dr. Sarno and so they spread the suffering with arcane phraseologies, further wounding the spirit. Nerve conduction studies mean little. I had dozens of them, and they all showed lowered signals, but who cares? It's the process of having to go through the testing that harms the person. Lack of human connection lowers the signal not the body itself. The test shows a lowered signal but it cannot tell you why it's lowered, or that you're hurting deep inside because you lost a loved one, or are afraid of being alone. What can a test do to help you heal you? Preventative medicine is damaging more people than it has saved. But that thought is heresy to those whose livelihoods depend on defensive medicine.

    You will heal but you have to erase all doubt in your mind, and of course interrupt the triggers, happiness is your answer, accept it, and allow it into your life. Forgive yourself. Throw your crutches away.
    TG957, Tennis Tom and MWsunin12 like this.
  5. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Thank you for your kind words, Steve! And thank you for your book, it helped me a lot to get past my doubts and to start running, too. After I run my 3.5 miles route, pain in my feet, ankles and legs miraculously goes down from 6-7 points to 2-3 points and my hands are less tense.

    It still amazes me how the people who go through the very rigorous and competitive admission process to the medical schools, which obviously requires a high level of intelligence, tend to lose their ability to think independently and analytically once they are through the medical school.

    You are absolutely right about the fear. It was fear that drove me to the condition I am in. Took couple months to hit the bottom after the first symptoms showed up, and it has been a 10-months long journey out of the pit, and probably, many more months before I climb back to the pain-free life. But this path is equally challenging and liberating. I know that my health is in my hands, or to be precise, in my head.
    MWsunin12 likes this.
  6. MWsunin12

    MWsunin12 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Steve O continued on with Dr. Sarno's quest. I reread Steve's work often and have a deep gratitude for his presence. Even the traditional medicine (Western) is starting to be unable to ignore the correlation between stress and MOST of the illnesses they treat, even autoimmune and cancer.

    It's hard, sometimes, to believe that these sensations have to do with blood flow and the brain subconsciously deciding what to do, but if you can remember an emotional time and "feel" it all over again with the memory, it makes sense that the brain would squash the unpleasant feelings in favor of distracting body pain.

    wishing everyone well.
    Tennis Tom and TG957 like this.
  7. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    The brain has carte blanche to do anything it wants, or can, in order to fervently keep the truth from rising to awareness. Blood flow reduction is just one means. TG and MW I'm happy my books helped you in some way, it makes all those years writing quietly alone worth the effort. I'm done writing for a while and will begin speaking when this promo phase ends. Right now it is 2 shows per day to keep the good doctor's work going.

    I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidaze.
  8. Andy Bayliss

    Andy Bayliss TMS Coach & Beloved Grand Eagle

    Right on!
    Want to say to you Steve, that I have a client who has greatly improved and gives your book GPD much credit! Thanks!
    MWsunin12 and Tennis Tom like this.
  9. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    Thanks Andy, I put you in the healing resource section (Appendix C) of The Great Pain Deception because you know what you're doing. You get it at the deeper spiritual level and I agree with your views and perception of the process. I'm sure your clients are getting valuable help from you. To whom much is given much will be asked.
    MWsunin12 and Tennis Tom like this.
  10. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Merry Christmas and happy New Year to all!
    MWsunin12 likes this.
  11. newarrior

    newarrior Peer Supporter

    I had a rough massage here in Bangkok and three months later still having pain and weakness in my ring finger and pinky of my right hand as well pain in my wrist...Gonna have an EMG this week..I am afraid I have permanent damage to my right hand,,Thoughts ?
  12. newarrior

    newarrior Peer Supporter

    What if the cause was physical ? Still TMS ?
  13. eightball776

    eightball776 Well known member

    I just discovered this very old thread, so I'm not sure how much value this addition will have, but after reading the OP, I immediately thought of Dr. Hanscom's book (which I just finished reading), "Do you Really Need Spine Surgery?" right away. It sounded a lot like my situation in a way - and Dr. Hanscom just does a great job explaining it. He sets up 4 categories of patients (attached) - one of them being those with an observable structural issue that corresponds directly with consistent symptoms and an over-active nervous system (IB). He describes how patients in this group can not only recover without surgery, but the important piece for me is understanding how "TMS" can coexist with and exacerbate an underlying structural/"physical" problem. This complicates things considerably, and as most of you reading this can understand, gets in the way of the most important part of recovering from TMS - accepting the diagnosis. I found this post because it has once again been recommended that I have an EMG study done. I am actually considering it, even though in the past I found it quite uncomfortable, and the results were never very useful. It always felt like another cash-grab by pain mgmt physicians, and another hoop to jump through so the insurance company would 'believe' that you were doing everything you could to treat the problem so they would approve the other, more expensive stuff. It's been many years since I had it done, and I am again looking to put together results from the most advanced diagnostic tools as possible so I can make some difficult decisions moving forward. Even if TMS is solely responsible for my 'pinched nerve' symptoms, if surgical intervention may be able to resolve what a solely psychological approach cannot, it is something I have to consider at this point.

    Attached Files:

  14. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    @eightball776 , thanks to your post, I re-read the thread.

    Four years later, I can repeat everything I said before. I had EMG done. My results were bad enough to get a referral for steroid injections and possible surgery after. Four years later, not only I am pain-free, but I am also dystonia-free. For anyone who knows that dystonia is considered an incurable condition, it may sound nearly improbable. I am willing to volunteer for the repeat of the EMG, but no doctor would send me for it since I don't have any symptoms. I did not do anything from the list prescribed by the official medicine at the time. Instead, I went full TMS. I recovered in 2 years. The only reminder of my pretty severe at the time condition is a mild numbness in my middle fingers, which is very slowly shrinking at a pace about 50% per year. The only reason it bothers me is that I am a perfectionist and I would like to claim a 100% recovery, and I am now only at 99.5%. And, BTW, I had a "pinched nerve" diagnosis from the chiropractor, too! Somehow the nerve "unpinched" itself without any surgeries.

    I cannot give you any advice, decision must be yours and only yours. However, I have much more to say on the subject, but it would not fit in a single forum post. I described my experience and my approach here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0834Q46SM

    Best of luck to you!
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  15. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Listen to @TG957 . I have heard straight "from the horses mouth" as the expression goes from Dr. Schubiner himself in a class I just took with him, that these nerve conduction studies are totally useless and contra indicated for TMS (neural circuit) pain. I myself had EMG's and all sorts of there things like nerve biopsies and even a horrific procedure that I don't want to revisit even in my mind. These types of tests are notoriously ineffective because they don't tell you what is truly going on. Often people will get positive (horrible) results but it's like a false positive. They don't really gage "damage"...they are gaging something else that doesn't not correlate with actual "damage" or any other fantastical notions you may have about "pinched nerves" and the like. This has been debunked my Sarno and many other MD's but yet these notions live on in the collective belief systems of the public and the medical industry. If you look a just the placebo effect which has been studied to death, it is STILL disregarded or swept under the rug! Why? Belief systems and money is usually at the root of it.
    TG957 likes this.
  16. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    To @miffybunny 's point, I just want to add this: every neurologist who does EMG would agree that a neural path has two endings: one in the body part that hurts and another one in the brain. How do they know that degradation starts right couple inches above the body part but not in the brain itself? Just because they measure it couple inches above does not prove anything. The answer is simple, they don't.
    miffybunny likes this.
  17. eightball776

    eightball776 Well known member

    I don't disagree with any of this stuff. My doc has been telling me I am going to lose motor function & control of my bladder without surgery. Four different neurosurgeons without any financial stake in outcome or reason for bias have independently evaluated my case and concluded that surgery is indicated. My experience with Dr. Sarno & prior experience with TMS overshadows all of them. Despite all of the scary words & certainty with which they have all recommended risky, major operations, I am no closer to believing the root of my problem is anything other than completely psychological. I do believe the pathology identified by all of these learned professionals is responsible for my symptoms because of the inflammation/swelling/oxygen deprivation in the area much in the same way a big bruise on a leg hurts more when you press on the purple part. Even if surgery could 'fix' that area, I would doubtlessly develop a new TMS problem somewhere else, or worse, my brain would use the surgery to exacerbate symptoms in the same area, masquerading as a new problem from the operation or even "Failed Back Surgery Syndrome".

    All that said, I am still actually considering surgical options simply because I just don't know what else to do. After a decade of suffering, all of the reading, journals, introspection, meditation, psychotherapy, etc., have failed to result in even the slightest improvement. It feels natural that at this point I would be looking back at physical therapy, body mechanics/posture, gentle yoga, etc. as my best options for relief. Steroid dependency feels like the biggest monkey on my back, and it makes me much riskier candidate for any kind of surgery. Treating the symptoms becomes the only option when you can't make any headway with treating the cause. The only 'fear' that also seems pretty natural to me, is the fear of being confined to a wheelchair, yet a wheelchair feels like a much better option to trying to manage on my own with the excruciating pain caused by standing & walking. Shifting my weight to my right side so often to avoid exacerbating the pain on the left has already resulted in a stress fracture in my right foot (Prednisone). It is sounding less & less crazy to ask a surgeon to solve a psychological problem, but ...

    How much longer do I put all of my faith in healing myself from a psychological perspective without the slightest shred of improvement before I let someone try to solve with a scalpel what the psychologists, psychiatrists, coaches, books, etc. could not?

    Sure, it could wind up making everything worse, but my quality of life has already reached a point where it's starting to feel like it might be worth the gamble. I almost wish I hadn't had the experience 20+ years ago where I cured chronic LBP 100% with a book & a few lectures, because it makes what I'm going through now that much more frustrating. Whatever understanding helped me unlock this puzzle all of those years ago is just not doing the trick this time around. As always, I really appreciate everyone in this thread & browsing this forum for your insights & 'listening' to my 4am rant.

  18. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    @eightball776 , I understand and fully sympathize. So sorry you are going through this hell. Best of luck to you whatever path you choose!

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