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Would mild oxygen deprivation show up on an MRI

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by Riffdex, Apr 8, 2017.

  1. Riffdex

    Riffdex Peer Supporter

    I have what I believe to be confirmed TMS in the wrist area. I had an MRI on the area about eight months ago, which showed nothing out of the ordinary. Out of curiosity, I was thinking about requesting a copy of my MRI to see if it showed mild oxygen deprivation to the area. Is this something that would show up clearly on an MRI? Or would I need an MRI of both hands to really be able to recognize that the oxygen content of the bad hand was different than normal?
  2. MSZ812

    MSZ812 Well known member

    I doubt it. Sarno's theory is that it is very mild (although it can cause terrible pain)
  3. MindBodyPT

    MindBodyPT Beloved Grand Eagle

    No, this would not show up on MRI. Try not to worry about "proving" your TMS with imaging. Also remember that Sarno's theory of mild O2 deprivation is just a theory...not proven specifically. O2 deprivation may well be the cause of the TMS pain but not in a way that could be imaged.
    MSZ812 likes this.
  4. Riffdex

    Riffdex Peer Supporter

    Thanks so much for keeping me on track! My wrist pain has come back a little bit today , and I think I may not be focused enough how I should be. I am re-reading The Mindbody Prescription. Any tips for keeping my mind in the right place to get my pain back gone?
  5. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yes - you must focus on the psychological, and let go of the physical. 100%. The fact that you asked that question about your MRIs shows that you are still obsessing (which is what we TMSers do) about the physiological causes for your pain. Dr. Sarno came up with the oxygen theory as nothing more than a convenient tool to help visualize the fact that your brain is choosing to create physiological symptoms in order to distract you from getting bogged down in emotional feelings. The actual symptom is meaningless, and focusing on it in any way shape or form ensures you will remain stuck.

    What we call TMS is a primitive mechanism for survival that worked fine when all you had to do was live just long enough to breed the next generation. Unfortunately, it has no use in the modern world, and in fact gets in the way when our lives are so completely different from those of our primitive ancestors. You have to be willing to expose the negative emotions that your brain is trying to protect you from experiencing. Expose them, experience them, accept them - and your brain will eventually give up. You need to teach your brain a whole new way of being in the modern world.
  6. Duggit

    Duggit Well known member

    Phantom limb pain refers to pain in a part of a limb that was amputated. About 70% of people who lose a limb have it. How does it happen? The brain creates the sensation of pain in muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc. that no longer exist. Butler & Moseley, Explain Pain 22 (2d ed. 2013). It seems mild oxygen deprivation is not necessary for a person to feel pain because the brain can just flat out create it. Why would this reality apply to phantom limb pain but not TMS pain?

    Instead of being preoccupied about mild oxygen deprivation, it might be more productive to focus on figuring out what emotion you are repressing and what triggered it? As for tips to keep your mind in the right place, I think that is just a matter of will. If I recall correctly, JanA has noted elsewhere that the will to accept what you need to accept and to do what you need to do to overcome TMS is easier to muster if you are desperate because nothing else you tried has worked. If my recollection is incorrect, I'll say it myself: desperation helps. So long as a person holds out hope for chemical or surgical relief, which itself is really a form of belief, sufficient desperation might be lacking.
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  7. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Of course, there's an alternate theory for the cause TMS pain described by Howard Schubiner involving programmed pain pathways, presumably in the brain. In other words, it's a programmed or learned response that keeps on repeating itself whether or not there is a physical (i.e. real) cause for it. I do recall that Dr Sarno does mention somewhere that reduced O2 levels have been detected in the lower lumbar tissues of patients with back pain. Don't recall the source though. Seems like there is a lot of debate about the mechanism that creates TMS pain but the consensus points toward it being a response to repressed emotional states associated with traumatic life events.
  8. EileenS

    EileenS Well known member

    I have read books by neurosurgeons, neuroscientists, and psychiatrists that talk about the programmed pathways and it is an accepted theory of what's going on in the brain. I think this is the conditioned response that Dr Sarno mentions. Conditioning can happen quickly if the experience is really strong (as per Dr Norman Doidge books.) My intuition tells me that Dr Sarno's theory of oxygen deprivation is also right for my body. As Bruce says, it's a response to repressed emotional states. Losing a limb would certainly do this. Using ALL of Dr Sarno's methods help TMS sufferers learn how to recover, no matter what is going on in the subconscious and the body. That's why Dr Sarno tells us to journal plus go back to leading a normal life and stop focusing on the pain - revealing the hidden rage and re-conditioning the brain. That's how I see it.
  9. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Nerves are not hard wires like a house's electrical system. The nervous system is more fluid, electro-chemical. Most each cell has a nuleous, it's own little brain that contains our DNA chromosomes. The cells communicate with ion atoms, to the rest of the body with the nervous system's electro-chemical pathways. They are molecules and not hard wires. The sub-conscious brain, by conditioning, good and bad, wants to make instantaneous decisions. The conscious mind can slow things down and THINK. It can change autonomic compulsive behavior by overriding the conditioned autonomic responses of the sub-conscious. Candace Pert deals with these chemicals of emotions in her works. They are an electro-chemical messaging system carrying messages back and forth, round and round from head to toe. It's actually pretty miraculous when you think about it. Folks can travel at high speeds on freeways with only a white line and a few feet apart and not be banging around into each other, and this is mostly done on a sub-c level. Dr. Sarno in one of his 12 DAILY REMINDERS, says to tell the sub-c mind that you are now in charge and not let the pain distract you.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
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  10. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Sounds like both "mechanisms" could be at work in TMS, doesn't it Tom? That is, one symptom of programmed pain pathways firing off in the brain could be lowered oxygen levels in the nerves, tendons and muscles of the extremities, in particular in the lower lumbar region.
    EileenS and MindBodyPT like this.
  11. MindBodyPT

    MindBodyPT Beloved Grand Eagle

    I think this is very true. The brain is in control of blood flow...of course brain pathways will control the TMS pain response through the autonomic nervous system. This may well involve the diversion of blood flow somewhat away from certain muscles. It is well known that O2 deprivation for other conditions can cause pain- such as the buildup of lactic acid when lifting heavy weights over time, or the pain felt from tissue death due peripheral artery disease, for example. I think both can be true.
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