Worsening Symptoms and Doubt

[warren23]

@warren23, I think that what @Rabscuttle is saying fits really well with this new thread about pessimism vs optimism - or the concept, which I have been referring to quite often very recently, as the importance of mindset:
https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...ive-to-a-positive-attitude.33701/#post-173210

And I see that you already saw and Liked another recent post, which I think is really relevant for those who find themselves stuck and returning to the same dynamic from childhood. Again - it's calling for a new mindset. Which takes a completely different kind of work:
https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...opinions-appreciated.20723/page-4#post-173033

Hi Jan - I actually wanted to ask you - what do you mean by a “new mindset”? That seems to mean a lot of different things to different people in the mindbody world. I consulted with RogueWave and did decide to try one more epidural, and I got a prescription to Tramadol. I want to see if I can intervene in the pain cycle like I did last August.

Having said that, I really dislike the mindset that I need outside physical treatments to get better, but I felt I had try something different at this point.

 

[warren23]

Warren, when you dug into your traumas, were you able to feel and express your anger about them? Like really allow yourself that anger and let your previous self that experienced the trauma get it all out? I think sometimes when a person works with a therapist they can identify, and discuss, and feel sad, and even a little bit mad about it but because they are with someone and have to be societally acceptable they aren't really expressing the anger in the fullest way. Especially if it's toward someone that you also love or are "supposed to" love. How would you say you've felt and expressed the anger on those traumas? If you were going to rate yourself on how much you felt and got that anger out on a scale of 1 - 10, where would you be?

Booble - this is a great point. I came from a very dysfunctional background, my father’s alcoholism, his sexual abuse of my sister, my mother’s complicity in what happened, her narcissism, etc. No one cared how I felt, me included, and I wanted to kill both of them, and would have done so if I had thought I could have gotten away with it.

But, this trauma has apparently lived in my body most of adult life, with symptoms like intense back pain (resolved by my first reading of Sarno 40 years ago), neck pain, shoulder pain, knee pain (all resolved), and terrifying GI pain and discomfort about 4 years ago (resolved thru an “Aha” moment I was physically fine). However, I have not been able to resolve the sciatica - I am working intensely with Dr. Dan Ratner, but if anything my symptoms have gotten worse. He strongly believes I am on the right track, but I just don’t know.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

you - what do you mean by a “new mindset

It's described really well by cafe_bustelo in that first link. Mindfully read or re-read the entire thread, all of the varying responses and input, and put some real thought into the implications for yourself.

 

[Booble]

Booble - this is a great point. I came from a very dysfunctional background, my father’s alcoholism, his sexual abuse of my sister, my mother’s complicity in what happened, her narcissism, etc. No one cared how I felt, me included, and I wanted to kill both of them, and would have done so if I had thought I could have gotten away with it.

But, this trauma has apparently lived in my body most of adult life, with symptoms like intense back pain (resolved by my first reading of Sarno 40 years ago), neck pain, shoulder pain, knee pain (all resolved), and terrifying GI pain and discomfort about 4 years ago (resolved thru an “Aha” moment I was physically fine). However, I have not been able to resolve the sciatica - I am working intensely with Dr. Dan Ratner, but if anything my symptoms have gotten worse. He strongly believes I am on the right track, but I just don’t know.

You deserve a lot of anger! I hope your little younger self is now allowed to express how much he wants to kill those mother fuckers.
As grown ups, we do a lot of intellectualizing about "it was the alcohol" and "he was a sick man" and "she did the best she could" but our little self needs to say,
"FUCK YOU I HOPE YOU DIE. I WILL KILL YOU YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE."

 

[warren23]

You deserve a lot of anger! I hope your little younger self is now allowed to express how much he wants to kill those mother fuckers.
As grown ups, we do a lot of intellectualizing about "it was the alcohol" and "he was a sick man" and "she did the best she could" but our little self needs to say,
"FUCK YOU I HOPE YOU DIE. I WILL KILL YOU YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE."

Booble - thank you. To survive, I think I adopted the attitude of a cold-blooded killer because I wanted them dead or at least out of my life. This made it more difficult for me to feel the seething rage. I feel it, but probably more superficially than I need to. If they were still alive, I believe I might actually try to kill them.

To top it off, my sister hates me, as somehow I’m to blame for her being incested. All it takes is being a male. And my brother was caught taking photographs of his naked stepdaughter, his wife found out and immediately divorced him. He was a tenured Professor and Department Chair, and lost it all. Fired and humiliated with a public trial, did jail time and is now a registered sex offender.

My form of self-destruction seems to be chronic pain.

 

[Booble]

Booble - thank you. To survive, I think I adopted the attitude of a cold-blooded killer because I wanted them dead or at least out of my life. This made it more difficult for me to feel the seething rage. I feel it, but probably more superficially than I need to. If they were still alive, I believe I might actually try to kill them.

To top it off, my sister hates me, as somehow I’m to blame for her being incested. All it takes is being a male. And my brother was caught taking photographs of his naked stepdaughter, his wife found out and immediately divorced him. He was a tenured Professor and Department Chair, and lost it all. Fired and humiliated with a public trial, did jail time and is now a registered sex offender.

My form of self-destruction seems to be chronic pain.

That is A LOT. So when they say, "hurt people, hurt people," you actually hurt yourself.
I hope you can get it out, forgive yourself for any unfounded guilt you might have tucked away, and soothe the little Warren inside that had to witness all of this horror.
Grown Warren is safe.

 

[warren23]

That is A LOT. So when they say, "hurt people, hurt people," you actually hurt yourself.
I hope you can get it out, forgive yourself for any unfounded guilt you might have tucked away, and soothe the little Warren inside that had to witness all of this horror.
Grown Warren is safe.

Booble - thank you, I am working on it. I have read many, many brilliant posts here, and one thing I am missing is still having fear of my symptoms. This is a big stumbling block.

 

[warren23]

It's described really well by cafe_bustelo in that first link. Mindfully read or re-read the entire thread, all of the varying responses and input, and put some real thought into the implications for yourself.

Jan - is there still a link to the old TMS wiki forum, or is it integrated into this forum?

 

[Booble]

Booble - thank you, I am working on it. I have read many, many brilliant posts here, and one thing I am missing is still having fear of my symptoms. This is a big stumbling block.

That's a toughie. Is your fear of your symptoms fear that they will kill you or fear that you will fall down in front of people?

One of the things that helps me in that regard is asking myself the 5 Whys.
"Why are you afraid of going out to hang out with so-and-do?"
"Because I'm afraid I will feel dizzy and faint."
"Why are you afraid of fainting?"
"Because I'll feel embarrassed."
"Why will you feel embarrassed?"
"Because I'm supposed to be perfect."
"Why are you supposed to be perfect?"
"Because otherwise Mummy will yell at me."
etc

It always leads back to Mummy..... LOL

 

[warren23]

That's a toughie. Is your fear of your symptoms fear that they will kill you or fear that you will fall down in front of people?

One of the things that helps me in that regard is asking myself the 5 Whys.
"Why are you afraid of going out to hang out with so-and-do?"
"Because I'm afraid I will feel dizzy and faint."
"Why are you afraid of fainting?"
"Because I'll feel embarrassed."
"Why will you feel embarrassed?"
"Because I'm supposed to be perfect."
"Why are you supposed to be perfect?"
"Because otherwise Mummy will yell at me."
etc

It always leads back to Mummy..... LOL

My fear is that the symptoms themselves will get so bad they will kill me, or cause me to kill myself.

 

[Mani]

fucking depressing to hear of so much sexual abuse…. Who the fuck are these people??

 

[Cactusflower]

@warren23
I can absolutely relate. For almost two years of my initial dive into TMS, I was absolutely eaten up with anxiety of the symptoms and with the suffering of the habitual obsessions. I didn't feel like myself at all, it was such a weird, in yet out of body experience. At times, I wasn't sure I could carry on either. I was stressing everyone around me out.
However, I stuck with it. My hope was in the people on this forum who had far worse symptoms than myself eg @miffybunny and @TG957, and people like @JanAtheCPA who had a very different experience. That variety of experience showed me that healing was not linear, and that it could be quite different for each person - including the levels of anxiety.
I trusted my coach (who also was healing from TMS), who assured me things would get better. My EMDR therapist assured me that things would get better and was more clear about HOW they would get better than anyone else had been. It did. The first thing to get better was the anxiety. When the mindset abated I could work on my mindset even though I was still disassociating like crazy and feeling so unlike myself. But loosing the anxiety helped me begin to confront the fear in some of the ways Alan Gordon uses.
Eventually, I could work on the focus and fixation of the pain which began to reduce (even though it was incremental) the sensations and sometimes moments without pain.

It was probably about that point where I realized this really could work. I still have pain, it comes and goes, changes and morfs (probably because I do have some physical issues at the moment) but life is infinitely better. EVEN when I hurt, I still enjoy life and still enjoy the moments in my day that bring me joy.

You've been great about sticking with all this. I believe that at some point, it will shift for you. One of my biggest shifting moments was so "woo woo" it was weird. I did a Kristen Kneff compassion meditation or a META meditation when I sent love to the world and then to myself. It's a lesson in how much we care for the things outside ourselves verses our own life source. Big shift in my world view that day.
That might not be your shift, but I think you will have one at some point. Don't be afraid to step outside Dan's box - do the work he suggests but perhaps play a bit with some other ideas. Keep open - sometimes we're told (in this space) that being open is "searching" for a fix. Being open is part of breaking the very ridgid mindset some of us have. Playfully try some things to see what happens. You never know.

 

[warren23]

@warren23
I can absolutely relate. For almost two years of my initial dive into TMS, I was absolutely eaten up with anxiety of the symptoms and with the suffering of the habitual obsessions. I didn't feel like myself at all, it was such a weird, in yet out of body experience. At times, I wasn't sure I could carry on either. I was stressing everyone around me out.
However, I stuck with it. My hope was in the people on this forum who had far worse symptoms than myself eg @miffybunny and @TG957, and people like @JanAtheCPA who had a very different experience. That variety of experience showed me that healing was not linear, and that it could be quite different for each person - including the levels of anxiety.
I trusted my coach (who also was healing from TMS), who assured me things would get better. My EMDR therapist assured me that things would get better and was more clear about HOW they would get better than anyone else had been. It did. The first thing to get better was the anxiety. When the mindset abated I could work on my mindset even though I was still disassociating like crazy and feeling so unlike myself. But loosing the anxiety helped me begin to confront the fear in some of the ways Alan Gordon uses.
Eventually, I could work on the focus and fixation of the pain which began to reduce (even though it was incremental) the sensations and sometimes moments without pain.

It was probably about that point where I realized this really could work. I still have pain, it comes and goes, changes and morfs (probably because I do have some physical issues at the moment) but life is infinitely better. EVEN when I hurt, I still enjoy life and still enjoy the moments in my day that bring me joy.

You've been great about sticking with all this. I believe that at some point, it will shift for you. One of my biggest shifting moments was so "woo woo" it was weird. I did a Kristen Kneff compassion meditation or a META meditation when I sent love to the world and then to myself. It's a lesson in how much we care for the things outside ourselves verses our own life source. Big shift in my world view that day.
That might not be your shift, but I think you will have one at some point. Don't be afraid to step outside Dan's box - do the work he suggests but perhaps play a bit with some other ideas. Keep open - sometimes we're told (in this space) that being open is "searching" for a fix. Being open is part of breaking the very ridgid mindset some of us have. Playfully try some things to see what happens. You never know.

Thanks for your support Cactus. My anxiety and obsession about the symptoms is killing me right now, and leading to even worse symptoms much of the time.

I feel lost and am not sure what to do at this point. I have worked with four coaches, and none have been able to consistently help me get better. I have had the best luck by far with Dan - one challenge is takes two weeks of vacation every quarter, which I have found hinders my progress.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

It always leads back to Mummy..... LOL

It often does! Love the trail of whys too - very effective.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Jan - is there still a link to the old TMS wiki forum, or is it integrated into this forum?

Hmmm, can you give me a little more context? What are you looking for? Did you come across a dead link?

This forum changed platforms in 2012. Forest kept the old platform threads archived for a while, but I can't remember the details of how that worked, and they eventually stopped working due to outdated technology. When we updated the SEP a couple years ago there were a bunch of old links we had to remove, for posts before 2012.

Sometime people get us confused with the original TMSHelp website. It never updated its software to adapt to smartphone browsers, so it wasn't very usable. It didn't have enough active members and the owner couldn't keep up, and it eventually got overrun with spam. It was still online last year, but very sad.

 

[warren23]

Hmmm, can you give me a little more context? What are you looking for? Did you come across a dead link?

This forum changed platforms in 2012. Forest kept the old platform threads archived for a while, but I can't remember the details of how that worked, and they eventually stopped working due to outdated technology. When we updated the SEP a couple years ago there were a bunch of old links we had to remove, for posts before 2012.

Sometime people get us confused with the original TMSHelp website. It never updated its software to adapt to smartphone browsers, so it wasn't very usable. It didn't have enough active members and the owner couldn't keep up, and it eventually got overrun with spam. It was still online last year, but very sad.

Jan - thanks for that information. Because the forum is far less active than it used to be, I have been searching the archives by user names for folks that have healed (like you, RogueWave, Tennis Tom, Baseball65, Balto, miffbunny, etc.) I noticed that most of these posters have left the forum years ago, so I can't solicit their feedback now. It sounds like posts prior to 2012 will not show-up here?

Also, why is the forum less active - where did everyone go??

 

[Mani]

Also, why is the forum less active - where did everyone go??

I have wondered this too.

Apparently theres tms groups on facebook and some paid spaces like the one nicole sachs is running. I would like to make a Reddit for it to spread awareness but I dont know how id get traffic

 

[warren23]

I have wondered this too.

Apparently theres tms groups on facebook and some paid spaces like the one nicole sachs is running. I would like to make a Reddit for it to spread awareness but I dont know how id get traffic

With a few notable exceptions, the Facebook pages on TMS seems to me to be the blind leading the blind, and the feedback lacks the depth and insights of many here who healed.

 

[Booble]

My fear is that the symptoms themselves will get so bad they will kill me, or cause me to kill myself.

It often does! Love the trail of whys too - very effective.

Yes, I learned about the 5 Whys for work as it is used for "root cause" analysis. I though, hunh, maybe that would be useful for TMS root cause analysis too.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

so I can't solicit their feedback now

You're still looking for someone else to save you. This is your brain on TMS, distracting you from doing your own emotional work. The truth about reality is that you are accomplishing nothing. TMS wins again.

There's no need to increase traffic here, and we don't have the infrastructure to handle it, so please do not do that, guys. That's very self-serving if you step back and look at the bigger picture which I understand is difficult when you are suffering. But here's another harsh truth: You're both just hoping that increased traffic will attract or generate the source of your magical solution.

Most people who recover eventually get back to their lives and move on. This is normal. A few of us are retired, and have an inclination to serve. A few are not retired and still choose to be here to serve. I suspect that we are all the type of people who have always found ways to volunteer our time and skills to help others, and we just happened to find a niche here that serves our desire to be of service. But we will all eventually move on in one way or another.

My story is just one of many. I had an entire career that was devoted to being of service to others, and it was very difficult to give up that aspect of my tax practice, but I was getting too old for the stress imposed by the compliance. I came across an article many years ago, from the Wall Street Journal I think, about how CPAs are like therapists. That's probably why I landed here, immediately started participating and why I stayed. It's not the only volunteer work that I do, although at age 75 I have cut back. That's just one story. Every one will be different.

The bottom line is that there's sonething about the environment that Forest created here that lends itself to a very high quality of empathy in our interactions, which is not easy to achieve in an anonymous and essentially totally free environment.