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Why Dr. Sarno is right and why Dr. Hanscom and Dr. Schubiner are wrong.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by BeWell, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2016
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  2. MrRage

    MrRage Peer Supporter

    I don't understand your argument. From purely anecdotal experience I have noticed that often times as one symptom decreases in pain, another symptom begins to manifest. The theory of the 'symptom imperative' is the best and most simple explanation for this phenomenon. How else could you explain this?
     
  3. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
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  4. MrRage

    MrRage Peer Supporter

    The TMS healing program is based on 'knowledge therapy;' knowledge is of course a matter of the mind. There are obviously going to be structural changes as a consequence of the syndrome and these changes can be observed in any part of the body including the brain. However, the treatment relies on the patient's knowledge of the mechanism and the process of TMS and the process is fundamentally psychological. Knowledge of neurochemistry is irrelevant and possibly counterproductive for the patient receiving TMS therapy.
     
  5. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

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  6. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    I just caught this thread on a quick break from the hot-tub to top-off my Pimms Cup, speaking from a slight buzz--you two are in COMPLETE AGREEMENT that, TMS/Dr. Sarno's version of it, states that the SYMPTOM IMPERATIVE is psychosomatic/emotionally induced and NOT structural. I think the disagreement--if any-- is being cause by not enough band-width on Al Gore's internet. Next time I'm in Santa Barbara playing tennis, I'll pay him a visit at his sea-side nine bedrm. bachelor villa and tell him to up the memory in his servers. I believe SteveO agrees that Hanscom's and Schubiner's takes on TMS are somewhat different then the Good Doctor's but at least they are not knife happy. There was a push a while back to change the nomenclature of TMS to some other acronym to make it sound more allopathic like and a "real dis-ease", but it doesn't seem to have taken off at least at the TMS boards. Modern psychiatry has tried to blame chemistry for emotional dis-ease, and write an RX for it rather then talking about what's going on with the patient--you can squeeze a lot more customers into 50 minutes curing them with a pill then finding out what's going on in their emotional lives. Most psychotherapists have gone along with the plan, none of the many I've asked about Sarno have ever heard of him and you would think if they did a minimum of homework they should be familiar with his TMS theory. Bottom line, reading both of your posts, you agree on the origin of the SYMPTOM IMPERATIVE--"it's all in your head"--or at least emanates from there and works it's way outward to the body or the affective equivalents.
     
  7. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Even Dr. Sarno posits an ultimately physiological explanation for pain of psychogenic origin, namely reduced blood flow to an area. It isn't some mystical phenomenon taking place outside the physical realm in his view. You are in my opinion focused on minutiae and inappropriately criticizing Dr. Schubiner who has studied and taught psychophysiological disorders for many years. He definitely believes these disorders have emotional roots and that is what is important, not the mechanics. From my experience mostly on the other TMS forum, these types of debates about one psychophysiological explanation versus another divert people from the main message.
     
    Steve J. likes this.
  8. MrRage

    MrRage Peer Supporter

    Dr. Sarno had a psychological explanation for pain and treated the syndrome psychologically. Dr. Sarno theorized that the 'unconscious mind' or the 'brain' uses the autonomic nervous system to reduce blood flow and thus cause pain to the patient. The origin is in the emotions and the reduction of blood flow is a strategy to distract the patient from unconscious feelings of anger and rage.

    I won't comment on Schubiner because I haven't read much from him. But in my own recovery it was necessary to focus solely on psychology. However, Steve O does mention that he found it beneficial to meditate on blood flow.

    I agree with pspa that this topic probably isn't beneficial for newcomers. I do think it is potentially beneficial and of use to some of us because it forces us to think about this issue and thus can be an exercise in reinforcing certain TMS principles.
     
  9. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Howard also has a psychological explanation and treats the problem psychologically. He just has a more neurological than circulatory hypothesis about the mechanics but his far bigger point is that psychological treatment works. I think the OP does him a tremendous disservice to characterize his approach as structural. Read his book, watch his videos.
     
    readytoheal likes this.
  10. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

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  11. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    You clearly don't understand what Howard is saying. The entire focus of his book and other writings is how emotions and stress cause pain. The neural pathway part is just mechanics. I can't speak to Hanscom, although to me what he said about anxiety on his blog which I reacted to has nothing to do with what Howard has said. Howard has written a book on anxiety he clearly considers it a psychological phenomenon/problem, look on Amazon.

    In any event, in my opinion the theories about HOW at a biological level psychogenic issues are metabolized through the nervous and other systems is unimportant. It's all just essentially theory anyhow including Dr. Sarno and seems to have not much to do with treatment.

    To me, the similarity among the various people trying to explain and help those with psychophysiological disorders far outweighs points of difference. The Sarno vs. Schubiner vs. Weekes vs. whomever debates are meaningless. Take from any and all of them whatever resonates, and don't get caught up in what I call TMS "flavor wars."
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  12. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
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  13. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Central sensitization/augmentation is a pretty well-documented phenomenon, assuming that is what you are referring to. Do you know better than the neuroscientists who have done that MRI research? Howard's point is that the brain is plastic and that these changes can be reversed through psychological treatments. E.g.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955480/ (Sustained Pain Reduction Through Affective Self-awareness in Fibromyalgia: A Randomized Controlled Trial)

    and

    https://themedicalroundtable.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/GM57212-RakelWM.pdf
     
  14. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
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  15. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
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  16. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Dr. Schubiner has written extensively on how in almost all cases ordering an MRI is a bad idea. What's your point? His is simply that all the advances in neuroscience are fully compatible with mind-body theories.

    Most of what you have said on this thread is a complete straw man argument -- setting up Dr. Schubiner as somehow an advocate of structural explanations and tests which he most decidedly is NOT.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  17. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2016
  18. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    I don't even know what you are saying now, honestly. If you think the world began and ended with Dr. Sarno, that's fine. To me, lots of people before after and including him, and most certainly Howard Schubiner, have many valuable ideas to contribute. In any event, it seems to me this has run its course.
     
  19. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

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  20. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
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