Why are there people who reject Sarno's ideas?

ibexbae

ibexbae

Newcomer
I don't mean medical or other health professionals. They have a bias in their training and we're talking about their livelihood. It makes sense that they'd reject it. I'm talking about people who seem to have TMS but aren't open to working with Sarno-type ideas. Like there are people who are bed-ridden, proclaiming suicidality, getting surgeries, or amputation (such as in RSD/CRPS) - really extreme, scary stuff - but they scoff at an idea. What is offensive about an idea?

It is perplexing to me and even existentially disturbing. ARE we arrogant for thinking we have answers?

Would love to hear peoples thoughts and experiences with this.
 
I think some people are just close minded or stubborn and you cant convince them unless they try it themselves. For example my girlfriend's friends boyfriend has had chronic lower back pain for about 10 years. It happened from a dirt bike or ATV accident. And he still does pshyio he stopped chrio , does steroid injections (apparently it works but only for a few months ) his mri said he has a couple herniated discs and degenarative disc disease. (People on here have healed from that) He also on the recent years has gotten ibs,acid reflux pretty bad and cant really drink much milk now.

He wants to get surgery but the doctors say he's too young (hes in his early thirties) but he thinks that will fix or make his pain better because a guy at his work got it and hes doing better now.

If I tried to tell him that his pain was tms or just fear and worry he would probably laugh at me or think I'm crazy. Hes also a know it all type personality. Even If i showed him a recent study done at Harvard about back pain and emotions it's very similar to what sarno did. Mri a bunch of people who do or dont have pain and the findings is that most people have herniated discs they dont even know it. And some people have pain with no henaited discs.
 
ibexbae said:
I don't mean medical or other health professionals. They have a bias in their training and we're talking about their livelihood. It makes sense that they'd reject it. I'm talking about people who seem to have TMS but aren't open to working with Sarno-type ideas. Like there are people who are bed-ridden, proclaiming suicidality, getting surgeries, or amputation (such as in RSD/CRPS) - really extreme, scary stuff - but they scoff at an idea. What is offensive about an idea?

It is perplexing to me and even existentially disturbing. ARE we arrogant for thinking we have answers?

Would love to hear peoples thoughts and experiences with this.
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I think that these are (arguably) some of the possible reasons why they scoff at the idea (even when the alternative is to remain in sometimes horrendous pain or to be having - or considering having - drastic surgery or whatever):
  • They don't want/like to think that they (their brains) have caused themselves these symptoms.
  • They don't grasp that the symptoms are very real and they're not mentally ill - they may be frightened of being labelled by others as having a mental illness (which they perhaps fear will make their career suffer because there is still a lot of prejudice and lack of understanding about mental illness, particularly in the workplace).
  • It can be hard work to get rid of the symptoms which can be difficult to face tackling (if you're not one of those that reads a Sarno book and gets better immediately).
  • They'd prefer a quick 'magic bullet' pill or treatment solution - than to have to work on themselves (and they possibly fear 'opening up a can of worms').
  • They are fearful of what their family and friends and colleagues will think.
  • Their symptoms are so severe that they find it hard to believe that the brain could possibly be causing them - despite Sarno saying that TMS can be horrendously painful.
  • They find it hard to believe that mild oxygen deprivation to the muscles and tissues can cause such bad and varied symptoms.
  • They are convinced that their symptoms must be structural because their pain is in an area where their body was structurally hurt at one time.
  • TMS symptoms can mimic structural problems to include auto-immune diseases and syndromes, so when their symptoms fit the picture for these things, they are convinced that they have them (even despite treatments for those conditions possibly failing to work/help).
  • They have total faith in the medical profession who may be saying that their symptoms are structural (and have shown them the scans - or whatever - which appear to prove it).
  • They (their brains/minds) are frightened of the changes that they may have to make in order to get well, e.g. they're in a relationship that might be best ended or in job they hate, but fear to give them up because this may cause hardship and turmoil.
  • They fear that if they tell their doctors that they want to try pursuing a mind/body solution, then it might be hard to get back into 'the system' and be taken seriously if their symptoms were to turn out to be structural - I'm thinking about the health system here in my own country, i.e. the UK's National Health Service.
  • People can be stubborn; they don't like being told what to do (even if it's done in a caring and informative way); this means that they have to find their own way to it but, unfortunately, sometimes they don't get to it at all.
  • Their disabling symptoms have forced them out of their jobs and they have become reliant on state disability benefits. If they told their doctors that they are going down the mind/body route it may affect what their doctors write about them and their only means of support could be affected - reduced or withdrawn by the state. (I'm not saying they are scroungers as their symptoms are genuine, but you need your doctors' continued backing to continue to get benefits - leastways you do here in the UK.)
  • Doing TMS work requires a 'leap of faith' or at least to 'suspend disbelief', which some might not be willing to take or find difficult to do for any of the reasons listed above.
The brain/mind/way people think is/can be a powerful thing.
 
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That's a great discussion question, @ibexbae
BloodMoon said:
They don't want/like to think that they (their brains) have caused themselves these symptoms.
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I suspect that this is the #1 reason. It's a concept that is simply too far beyond the grasp of the average individual. I believe that it takes a very flexible and fairly creative mind to be able to do this work.
 
Emotions are complicated, and it's possible some would prefer lifelong physical pains to actually feeling them. Early on, I offered The Divided Mind to my brother who was having some health problems. He's open-minded, but if you can't see yourself in it, it's all just intellectualized like, "yes the mind and body are connected, I can get that" and then nothing is done. I think sometimes we proselytize a bit, but mostly because we'd like some more support in it and have someone going through it as well. It ends up being much more of a personal experience though. This forum is amazing, and yet even here you'll have to find your own way. The problem at the heart of it though is not so unique, in fact it may be ubiquitous. Which is a long way of saying I should get myself another copy of The Divided Mind....
 
AnonymousNick said:
I think sometimes we proselytize a bit, but mostly because we'd like some more support in it and have someone going through it as well. It ends up being much more of a personal experience though. This forum is amazing, and yet even here you'll have to find your own way
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This is spot on in my opinion and experience.
 
AnonymousNick said:
Emotions are complicated, and it's possible some would prefer lifelong physical pains to actually feeling them.
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They can't, they won't, could be a bit of both. If you haven't felt your emotions for decades, it can be truly scary. I am going through it, and frankly, it's no picnic, let me tell you, and it's certainly not making my life better in the short run. In fact, it's making it worse.

Take, for instance, meditation. At first, it made me calm down. After a couple of weeks, the tears started, especially whenever anything about feelings and emotions came up. I'd cry, but I wouldn't sob, just tears running down my cheeks, and I was still able to sit still. I knew this could happen and it wasn't abnormal and I was able to just let it be. And then it turned into uncontrollable shaking. I just couldn't keep still. Sitting used to be the easy part for me! I was able to sit still, with a million thoughts racing through my mind. I could no longer do that. I was for real shaking in my chair and my mind was jumping all over the place, of course, and I was crying too. I couldn't finish the meditation, because I was jumping out of my skin.

I hate this so much. I can't even really say whether it's restlessness or anxiety, but it feels very physical. I have no control over it, it starts in my stomach, it gets all tight, something bubbles up through my body, and when it reaches my eyes, the crying begins. Big, fat, ugly sobbing, the works. After a while, it somehow peters out, but I don't really feel better. Sometimes I might feel a lot better about half an hour later.

Sometimes it's not that elaborate. Something triggers me and I feel this weird shiver, and then it stops before it even fully starts and it feels incomplete, somehow. It's so short and sudden that I don't even have the time to choose if I'm going to sit with it or do something or panic or whatever. Like something wants to come out and boom, it's blocked, almost instantly.

To me, it feels like my body is trying to tell me something, but part of me is resisting that. I'm trying to listen, but it's not really going well, and I have no idea what I can do to facilitate that. I'm quite confused, these days.
 
Rosebud said:
They can't, they won't, could be a bit of both. If you haven't felt your emotions for decades, it can be truly scary. I am going through it, and frankly, it's no picnic, let me tell you, and it's certainly not making my life better in the short run. In fact, it's making it worse.

Take, for instance, meditation. At first, it made me calm down. After a couple of weeks, the tears started, especially whenever anything about feelings and emotions came up. I'd cry, but I wouldn't sob, just tears running down my cheeks, and I was still able to sit still. I knew this could happen and it wasn't abnormal and I was able to just let it be. And then it turned into uncontrollable shaking. I just couldn't keep still. Sitting used to be the easy part for me! I was able to sit still, with a million thoughts racing through my mind. I could no longer do that. I was for real shaking in my chair and my mind was jumping all over the place, of course, and I was crying too. I couldn't finish the meditation, because I was jumping out of my skin.

I hate this so much. I can't even really say whether it's restlessness or anxiety, but it feels very physical. I have no control over it, it starts in my stomach, it gets all tight, something bubbles up through my body, and when it reaches my eyes, the crying begins. Big, fat, ugly sobbing, the works. After a while, it somehow peters out, but I don't really feel better. Sometimes I might feel a lot better about half an hour later.

Sometimes it's not that elaborate. Something triggers me and I feel this weird shiver, and then it stops before it even fully starts and it feels incomplete, somehow. It's so short and sudden that I don't even have the time to choose if I'm going to sit with it or do something or panic or whatever. Like something wants to come out and boom, it's blocked, almost instantly.

To me, it feels like my body is trying to tell me something, but part of me is resisting that. I'm trying to listen, but it's not really going well, and I have no idea what I can do to facilitate that. I'm quite confused, these days.
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Hi @Rosebud

I was reading about this the other day. I'm no expert in meditation, but I think you may be experiencing something called kriyas. The Buddhist monk, Shinzen Young, has a short video on YouTube about it:


And this article also may be of interest as it's about sensations during meditation - particularly what's said under the headings 'Tears and Crying During Meditation' and 'Spontaneous Movement or Twitching' https://chopracentermeditation.com/resource/5-sensations_during_meditation?sso_code=eyJpdiI6Ill4RXZMekVEWisrd0JYZUk1RGtXVGc9PSIsInZhbHVlIjoicVwvQmEya2hIb0hwNHVrODZzcUZpWHdVaGo3VXUxNllLK0ZFY0dBNmZiMDVGM1J6dVN4a0o3QmdvcTdGbmpGRFh0cVwvZzJyXC80XC9MSUJjd1Urdkw4TDZcL09cL2tXUFwvME15WlNnTzA1ODVKeTBzPSIsIm1hYyI6ImJlNzk2YTZhMzE1OWY4ODk5MjUzZWI2MjlkMGMyZDRkMmZiODQ4MDZkZTRiOTRlN2MzYjZjZjRmNTYwMGUxZDMifQ%3D%3D (Oprah & Deepak's Free 21-Day Meditation Experience).

Also, I don't know, but maybe this video may be helpful as it gives advice as to how to deal with spontaneous movements during meditation:

 
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Whoa, that first video is exactly what happens to me! (And that second video has Hungarian subtitles, and that's just crazy and random.) It feels pretty good to know that I can just let those tears be and I don't have to worry about probable causes or reasons or whatever. Just let them flow.

I'm going to be so evolved in the end, Pokémons wil have nothing on me!
 
What a about Little kids like 8 yrs old who got crps? People talk about traumas in their lives AND these kids are starting to LIVE AND get crps i dont understand
 
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