Uuuuuugh / Drawabox

I try to listen to my body a lot more. I've ignored my body for far too long.

Babies warm my heart; I want children.

As for the other things, its hard for me to imagine myself doing anything. I dont know whether my wants are still genuine; I will investigate this further

 

I just have these moments where I suddenly get incredibly stressed out by what i consider the reality of my future. Lots of unknowns obviously but its just a little scary. I find that if I dont think about it then theres nothing wrong. But do i actually not feel it when i dont think of it? These are all questions i would like to know the answer to. I've explained this in another reply to bloodmoon but do you understand what im saying? I just have so many uncertainties it feels like no one will ever be able to rely on me.

 

Life is full of unknowns, for better or worse! I know what you mean though. I think TMS does really live in people who have a hard time with uncertainty. I have a friend who is very go with the flow, I couldn't possibly see him getting TMS because he doesn't have enough of a concrete idea of "what should be" to compare it against and get massively disappointed if symptoms got in the way of life. He'd just take it in his stride and adjust accordingly (he'd almost be excited at the prospect of something new - of course he'd still be frustrated at the pain itself, but it's the secondary meaning that gets us). I'm not like that myself, but TMS has pushed me to be more like that, or at the very least have a better balance between the need to plan and have everything mapped out vs going with the flow of life. Think of it at the other extreme, imagine a video game or a movie where you know exactly what happens before you watch it/play it - it might be fun anyway, but that wouldn't be ideal if you were trying to sell the video game/movie. You wouldn't want to spoil it, as more people will buy it and be genuinely invested in it if they don't know what's going to happen. It is similar with life, you may think you'd want to know how it will all play out and you may think that if someone came to you and said "I have this pill, and if you take it everything you ever want to happen will happen" - it may seem attractive but it would get incredibly boring and you'd probably end up depressed. Some TV shows run with this sort of concept for an episode, but it reminds me of the episodes where everyone is suddenly romantically attracted to you - it begins as a novel idea but then the person is begging to have it changed back as no one will leave them alone and everything they say people agree with.

In terms of what you said on the last page, with missing out on things, I mean how many things do we miss out on? There's billions of things going on, but we don't have infinite time. My best friend is someone I see maybe once every couple of months (that's just the way of our friendship), we do completely different occupations, yet every time we see each other it's like it was yesterday. I'm confident you will find your people regardless. I think you probably know that settling for scraps is unfair, what if there's a woman in your exact same position (there actually would be plenty) who has also had her life interrupted by symptoms. I'd say you'd have a decent amount in common. Also, I don't know many people who have it figured out between the ages of 19 and 23 in this day and age. Some of your peers may quit their jobs in that time and then they themselves will feel like they've wasted time - so in a way they'd be in the same position as in your hypothetical. What's the rush to settle down? I could make the argument that pretty much no one is ready to have a child at 19 (although then someone could say you're never ready, but still at 19 your brain still has years left of development - probably until your late 20s to early 30s), so you're probably doing a responsible thing even though you don't mean it.

You don't need to answer these things directly to me, it's more an opportunity to self-reflect and ask yourself: what viewpoints and all or nothing type thinking is potentially getting in the way of relating to my symptoms with even a little bit more indifference? yYou're essentially telling yourself that these symptoms are right now but more importantly in the future going to ruin your life and mean you are never satisfied - if that remains, it's pretty difficult to relate to your symptoms better and you will feel like you're gaslighting yourself because it doesn't make sense to relate to them better if they mean your future is ruined.

If you relate to and focus on nothing else in the above, focus on the last paragraph or the one I just wrote - that's the key to me amidst the specifics.

 

I guess at my core I'm just not content with my social image. I think thats the honest answer. I didnt really go to school and now ive not seen anyone for 2 years. My self esteem is honestly in the gutter. I'm a scared rabbit. I think this has been a big part of my tms onset. The 'uncertainty' is kind of me filling in what i know to be true. I would really like to stop caring but I just have these episodes *sighs* -- I dont know mate. But you can smell it through the screen right? The self pity, I dont sound like someone ready to go back into life at all.

 

Yeah im just really really not happy with myself

 

I basically didn't socialise for the whole 6 years I was in pain so I know to an extent how you feel!

"I think this has been a big part of my TMS onset" - makes a lot of sense and great awareness. What emotions are behind that? Sadness? Anger? Who is the anger directed to for your lack of self-esteem? Don't hold back if it's the truth.

We often romanticise our lives pre-pain, which makes the pain seem like even more of a disaster. The truth is, though, that these things were there before pain and they are the reason for the pain in the first place, which you importantly pointed out above.

I thought that when you talked about being this outgoing guy who loved meeting new people before, and now you're saying that your lack of self-esteem from before the pain contributed to your pain onset. That doesn't really add up to me, unless the supposed confidence you did have was just a protective mechanism and you cared too much what others thought, and that was what was driving you to be outgoing (like you were out to prove that you were worthy). I am not trying to make you feel worse, but that's what we've been talking about around internal self-worth and true confidence - the symptoms definitely get in the way of life but they don't have to impact who you are deep down, and that's really what real confidence is. It doesn't depend on external approval. I do think you may be looking at the pre-pain past in a more favourable light - this might be a subconscious defence mechanism too to get you not to reflect and do deep inner work - i.e. the brain is saying we were just fine before the pain and it's all the pain's fault! Well as you importantly noted, that's not true because there's a reason why you're in pain in the first place (but this presents the way out too). Replace pain with your symptoms it's just force of habit from my end (and if someone else reads this who doesn't have pain specifically).

The last part you said I think is reflective of the "spotlight effect" which google defines as "a psychological phenomenon where individuals overestimate how much others notice, judge, or remember their appearance, behavior, or mistakes". You say that as if I'd be sitting here going "wow what a loser" - the truth is whilst I care about you and care about your recovery, I don't really care enough about your self-image to judge you like that (I care about your self-image to the extent that I want you to be happy and to the extent that it helps symptoms, but outside that I don't). I'm way too immersed in my own world and problems to care - unless you did something horrible but you seem like a good guy so I doubt I'll be judging you any time soon (also, who am I to judge?). This isn't personal either, you could replace yourself with anyone on the planet and it would be the same. Rather than this offending you, it should liberate you to know that you don't need to be so bothered about your self-image and what people think. Say you do something silly, and someone may judge you in the moment (most people won't, but some people will although that's more reflective of their insecurities so even then it's not about you - a confident person wouldn't) - say you slip over or something like that and say it's a work colleague. You might think about it for the next 3 days and think how embarrassing is this. You might dread seeing him again. He probably thinks about it for two minutes and then he's right back to thinking about his ongoing divorce and how much his life sucks. You stewed on it for 3 days and he forgot about it 2 minutes later (clearly a waste of energy on your part). It sounds counter-intuitive - but no one caring (we want them to care more broadly, but no one cares enough to really care about every single action you take or word you say - even if parents care too much day to day then you can become enmeshed and that is not good at all for either party) is actually the biggest liberation.

The last thing you said about being ready for life - I don't necessarily think that because I don't think the self-pity is necessary. Beyond the symptoms themselves getting in the way, I don't see why you aren't ready for life. Life doesn't need to be a competition (we all go at our own pace) and we all have insecurities. The only way you're going to get over them is through life also!

 

I'll respond properly tomorrow but i just wanted to say:

Youre great, very perceptive, im smirking at this interaction right now.

I love meeting new people, I love being around people but alongside that I'm deeply insecure and scared of rejection. I loved hostel culture because I finally felt like it was ok to come up to people.

I wouldn't really be able to categorize myself. I just know I feel great when I meet people that are open to meeting me. I love meeting parents of friends and talking with them. When I have no fear of rejection i love meeting new people. I dont know if this makes sense to you tell me if it does or that you see anpther inconsistency once again

I'll respond properly tomorrow but i just wanted to say this rq.

Youre great mate, Im much grateful

 

And yes my social behavior is learnt and did not come natural at all. I have been friends with a lot of people but there was this one guy: most charismatic guy ive ever met. Just any group you can think of from criminals to posh girls anyone and everyone loved him. I just learnt a lot from him and after that I got waaaaay better at socializing. This guy was legit insane btw ive never seen anything like it. But yeah when i meet people that i perceive as 'higher value' i still get insecure and completely lock up. There are probably still inconsistencies and maybe it sounds weird that i copied a guys social skills but youd understand if you saw the lad


Ive found owning insecurities and acting like you dont care works way better than other 'methods'. You can tell that i dont really have someone to talk to cuz i can legit talk about anything for ages but i havent been able to do so in a long long time.

 

I'm proud of you because what you said and these reflections are immense. You are really getting down to business here and unearthing some really valuable stuff.

You're saying that you have the genuine desire to meet new people (and this came out at hostels - I believe you do absolutely), but that this is often blurred by insecurity and a fear of rejection. In cases where these fears are triggered, it's hard to tell whether the intention to meet new people is still dominant or whether the fear of rejection is running the show and your behaviour.

I 100% relate and the same thing happens to me - I don't see an inconsistency here whatsoever, it makes complete sense and is a big realisation

What is different at the hostel? I had this when I lived overseas (actually for 6 months in your own country in Den Haag - I didn't learn any Dutch unfortunately or I would try with you! ) You can be yourself because you're not tied down and trapped by how others around you at home expect you to act. If you suddenly started truly being yourself at home, you risk putting people off who only know the mask. When you travel, however, no one knows you to begin with so you can be whoever you want to be - including your authentic self! They don't know the difference!

The fear of rejection and insecurity is very commonly a massive contributor to TMS symptoms - the symptoms protect you from this, both as it relates to life more broadly (including career), but also relationships. The symptoms protect you from trying and failing (and in turn being rejected). You'd also rather be rejected because of your symptoms than for who you truly are (which is completely normal - anyone would!). I see this in some things you wrote. You're saying things like "Of course no one will want to be with me because of my symptoms" and "I won't be able to provide". They are logical to an extent but likely driven by the deep fear of being rejected for who you truly are (your personality and your essence) - better to be with the certainty of being rejected because of something you think you can't control (symptoms) than risk a more painful rejection. This is what we are talking about when we say the symptoms have a purpose, I'm not saying definitively that this is the reason (or the sole reason) but I think it's a high chance at least it's part of it. I'll respond to your other message in a separate message

 

People might not consciously be thinking 'what a loser', but people see who you interact with. If youre talking to everyone, no matter what its about, people will see a guy that has a lot of people to talk to. This is one of those things that id love to try out. Face my fears and just start talking to people. I know therell be loads that dont want to but i should just get loose with everyone. I can blame my symptoms right now but i wouldnt have addresses this if i were healthy. I'm not scared of ordering a coffee or something or interacting with people, it is moreso fear that when i dont have anything to mention people will judge me personally. I hope you understand. When i order things or have questions about something there is no ulterior motive, and I know I'm a good talker -- or i used to be.

You said something about blaming the symptoms

This is so true. I get self improvement vibes when I'm not able to do anything, and then when I get healthy finally, I chicken out. Im not a huge nightlife person -- defo in part because im massively afraid of rejection esp women. But in our friend groups i used to do the talking at day like ordering stuff or calling a cab, but then at night theyd go ham and id just be scared. Its only when I'm afraid of personal rejection. At night I can ask someone a light or a cigarette but i wouldnt be asking them how are you. This long story is all to say that im aware that i have big plans when im not able to do something, but i still dont do them when im well. When i get better this is the main thing i want to address. I need to get loose and follow my heart, not my minds endless intrusive thoughts.

I remember every shameful interaction for years after when others will have long forgotten. I lie awake thinking about my social fails and i cant let them go. These are things i want to improve. I would like to live in the moment but im mega self aware.

These convos make me realize that i might not want to go to uni when i get bettet but instead first fix these things first. I guess ill follow my heart when the time comes.

As you see i got big plans, just need to double down. Social anxiety and fear of rejection need to go. Exposure would be a good measure when the time is right yeah?

 

Just because someone thinks you are a loser (which they most likely are not thinking), it doesn't make you one. Their thoughts are not your personal truth unless you make them your personal truth. Most people are trained to think that thoughts are real and are truth, that's simply not so. Thoughts are actually just things the brain does, and it does it a LOT - we don't even pay attention to 99.5% of thoughts the brain has - so why bother with only a chosen few which we fixate on and which aren't even ours or are not even the truth?

"When i get better this is the main thing i want to address. I need to get loose and follow my heart, not my minds endless intrusive thoughts."

Why wait? Why can't you start making small steps: planning, envisioning, etc about these things now. Waiting until you are "better" isn't necessary to begin making a start to follow your heart. Read books and research the things. I know I've thought about doing a lot of things and also many things that really challenge me - some of them I've simply dropped for now, forever it does not really matter. Other things have replaced those desires or interests. In some ways you are already practicing this with your drawing. You are trying! It has been frustrating you, and you don't yet feel success but what if the success is actually the beginning, taking the first steps and trying even if it causes frustration, anxiety, symptoms etc. the fact you are trying is success. Just like the fact you are working on and haven't given up the TMS work yet is success.

Perhaps defining what you think actually IS success is a helpful lesson. It just might be having people think you are "something" (whatever that is) or a feeling/emotion within you, or something more specific: something actually attainable and measurable. When we have a definition of ourselves like "Successful" that isn't measurable it is very hard to attain. Perfectionism and people pleasing others ideas or something that we don't have a tangible grasp on ends up having us spin wheels and constantly look for whatever "success" is. If we don't actually know what it is, how can we ever get there?

You absolutely can think about past events and let them go. It doesn't mean you will never think about them again, but you won't want to hold them so dear and ruminate so much on them. Self-forgiveness for past "transgressions" is absolutely a thing. Write an unsent letter to that person (or people) and/or yourself about an event that you want forgiveness for. It is a great way to let go. It does not have to be some long drawn out thing, you don't have to re-hash the story on paper. Think about the event. Think about how you FELT during it, and how you felt after, once you had regret. "I'm sorry I f*cked up. I have regrets but I am going to forgive myself because I'm learning though each of these things that happen in my life. I'm working towards letting this go".... that's it. Maybe it will help you write a bit more, maybe not. Just tear it up and throw it away. Or you right that to someone else "You totally F*ed me over. I am going to let this go and set myself free from worrying about it but I'm not going to let it happen again. I'm gonna call you out if you do these things because I deserve to have my feelings known".

Setting boundaries is about you. You can set them for yourself and you can set them for yourself concerning others. You can't force anyone else to follow your boundary but you can communicate it clearly and you can communicate your action to them. They do (whatever it is) again and you choose your reaction (which includes feeling your emotions) and communicate what your action will be: leave the room, or whatever..
With yourself you can think the thoughts and feel the emotions surrounding it and decide if you will re-direct your thoughts or keep thinking them. This is pure Claire Weekes. It can take working on this 1,000 times a day for 1,000 days but eventually it will work. Eventually you get so freaking bored of rehashing old stuff you look for something more interesting to think about!

 

I get what you mean about people noticing who we spend time with, but thinking that way can really tie us in knots.

It can easily turn into a tool for people-pleasing — trying to manage how others see us, instead of relaxing into our authentic selves and naturally attracting kindred spirits who share similar interests and values. That kind of pressure is exhausting.

As Wayne Dyer said, “What other people think of me is none of my business. One of the highest places you can get to is being independent of the good opinions of other people.” Such a freeing mindset.

 

@BloodMoon

I dont really have an extensive rebuttal. I just wanted to say i appreciate the wisdom.

When it comes to 'this is something i'll fix', obviously i can read self help books -- and i do -- but im a theoretical fixer. Its easy to read how to do stuff. Actually doing it is the hard part. I know so much theory but i just blank when i want to be cool the most. I love self help books. Just recently I found out how much I love working on myself. I cant wait to actually apply these things.

Youre right though, i can already do something with the obsessive thoughts. Claire weeks hasnt really clicked for me yet, but yall seem convinced. I am reading that book a lot and go back to specific chapters but idk why. I love the way she talks and the different time period its obviously written in. Like yesterday -- i think i posted about this -- i was suddenly scared for future whatever i mean any future is scary for me. And then on the one hand i was thinking 'claire weekes i got this', but on the other hand i was like this is obsessive and i cant shake it off oh no im broken. So i just keep thinking? Is that the new play? I know i should try to do something else but my thoughts just are really gripping. Can you believe im on the heaviest ocd meds available? Kinda crazy. When i finish writing this message ill pick up claire weekes once again

I want to let go, I need to do more claire weekes letting go but whenever im actually obsessively spiraling i feel anxious and helpless.

Success to me – and i know this will sound stupid but – is legacy. I want to leave something behind. Our ancestors go back all the way. My Y chromosome has traveled from father to father for hundreds of thousands of years, directly from father to son. It would be kind of devastating to have it end here, with Mani in the Netherlands. Succes is obviously intangible though, we dont know what success actually means, if there even exists something like real absolute success. Maybe were all just dumb organisms after all.

 

"Success to me – and i know this will sound stupid but – is legacy"
Why do you think others would interpret that as stupid? It's your personal interest, your value. I think it's interesting. What do you want your legacy to be? A name in a book, on the side of a building? A song or a book you wrote? A mathematical or scientific discovery?
How would this legacy look? How many people would recognize it? Would it be world wide recognition, or perhaps just people who share your specific interest?
What would happen if you don't have legacy? What if you were just a normal, average person who led a normal average life in an alignment with your beliefs. Would this be a failure? Having a legacy is a fine goal, but it could be a very highly pressurized goal and what could create more pressure than wanting some sort of "success" but never knowing what it is, so you'd never actually know when you attain it? You'd constantly be striving for something you don't even know what it is? Always good to have goals, but as you grow as a person it's good to have some idea of what "success" is (and that can change, ebb and flow!). Some folks are very driven to be "successful" others just want to be peaceful and happy (some both!). It's always good to figure out which path you might want to follow and which one works best for your own personal alignment and meets your needs.
Agreed that Claire Weekes is kind of old fashioned. I remember giving you a video of a man who is much younger, and interprets her work in a more modern way. He has a youtube channel, and you could just put on the text and turn down the volume. This guy is even younger, maybe even more relatable:

 

Youre right that we shouldnt do these things purely for others, but the question remains whether any behavior is actually authentic. I believe were mostly just nurtured to behave a certain way. I personally know that I was a little oblivious to social norms at first but ive gotten way better at that, thus changing my behavior. In the end were social animals made to try to conform to certain standards. I really find this interesting though — what is authenticity? Its a good question

 

I think it sounds kind of stupid because im not able to do anything. At the moment i dont really have a choice whether i leave a legacy behind. My #1 priority for legacy would be to continue my bloodline. I weirdly feel connected to all my ancestors in a way that makes me want to continue the line. My legacy will be my family, I dont really believe in other worldly stuff.

Good questions all around. I think we should strive for perfection and remain nice for ourselves when we dont -- because we wont -- ever reach perfection. I would like my kids and wife to be happy and live prosperous lives; thats what success means to me. You know when youre 90 and dying and you have 4 children looking after you and 15 grandchildren at your deathbed, youll feel more fulfilled and accomplished than any rich men who sinned greatly to get there. People are my fulfillment.

Dont you want kids? Kids are great right?

 

It’s true that our early experiences shape a lot of what we call “authentic” behaviour. I think authenticity isn’t about being free from influence—it’s more about tuning in to what feels genuinely right or alive for us underneath the conditioning. But if we push too far from that 'blueprint' by acting in ways that aren't really us—like forcing ourselves to be the life and soul of the party when we'd rather not—we end up attracting the wrong people, giving others a false impression of who we are, and facing fallout because we're not with our true tribe.

What’s fascinating is that studies of twins separated at birth, raised with totally different values or lifestyles, often show them gravitating toward similar interests, beliefs, partners, careers etc. Here's an (extreme) example: https://www.gammamindset.com/twins-separated-at-birth-amazing-and-belief-busting/. Others include British twins Daphne and Barbara—one raised in the UK, the other in Germany—who both became housewives wearing identical kitten-heel shoes, carrying matching handbags, holidaying in Jersey, and decorating with chintzy florals. Or 'The Minnesota Study' pairs of twins who matched in firefighting careers, woodworking hobbies (even similar garden benches), and disliking maths.

It’s like there’s a deeper blueprint shining through, regardless of upbringing. I’ve come to believe that when we stray too far from it—round pegs forcing ourselves into square holes—our emotions and bodies signal us, often as physical symptoms saying/shouting “this isn’t your path”.

Authenticity isn’t fixed—it’s an ongoing conversation between our inner truth and the world. When that stays open, life flows more easily.

There's a time and place for striving high, but chasing perfection all or most of the time is utterly draining—like a marathon with no finish line (even though we may be kind to ourselves when we don't manage perfection). It ramps up inner pressure until emotions and our bodies signal back with tension, fatigue and/or other symptoms, much like straying from our blueprint.

I’ve noticed easing off the "perfect" pedal lets natural energy return—good-enough alignment with who we are feels far more sustainable.

That deathbed vision with kids and grandkids all around is straight out of the movies—picture-perfect (and, of course, some people do experience that) but what if life throws a curveball, like meeting someone amazing where one of you can't have children? Would it mean dumping them to chase that exact script, or adapting to what still feels true and fulfilling?

 

When the time comes I'll have to make decisions. I hope I'll be able to choose wisely. I'm just gonna throw in another story:


The Last Kingdom, series on Netflix, is following Uhtred. Its about vikings invading england. Uhtred is half viking half 'Saxon', as they call it. I'm not gonna get into too many specifics but Uhtred, especially at the beginning, follows his heart. It was amazing for me to watch. I've tried to explain this to people but I have never succeeded. All the time watching the series, I wanted to be him. He's everything I'm not. I loved watching it precisely for that reason. His life wasnt perfect, rather the opposite, but it felt free. He had to work for some king and he went through all sorts of shit but it still felt free and incredible to me. I wish I could be as free in spirit as he was. Its one of the things I would love to implement more of. Not worrying about tomorrow, but enjoying today.

Vikings (another tv series) is similar but the mc Ragnar Lothbrok just does not at all grip me in the same way. I find it fascinating how i can be so mesmerized by a made up tv character.

id rec The last kingdom btw, amazing series. I'm a sucker for historical dramas but it was great even in that regard.


I love those stories about twins; thats a rabbit hole for tomorrow. I find twins very very fascinating. I'm fascinated by lots of things though


Edit: Btw i love that part about kegs and holes and i completely agree. Our bodies are just nudging –sometimes a little more than that – us into the right direction

 

@Mani The fictional Uhtred faced whatever life threw at him with fierce resolve—no distractions, just action. You've got that same (but less 'Hollywood') potential, and it starts with tackling your symptoms through genuine body/mind work, experiencing the emotions they're shouting at you to feel and release.

I'm going to be 'tough love' blunt: the debate-like 'rabbit hole' chats you've been having with me and others on the forums may throw up some insights (and people have made some great suggestions as to what you can do in practical terms to help yourself) but it seems to me that, for the most part, they're keeping you stuck in your head with thoughts. IMO, they're mainly serving as a diversion from the real doing.

 

Hey, thanks.

You mean journaling yeah? Ive done so much emotional work. So much to understand my youth and to really listen to what it says, and it just did not provide relief for me. Thats not to say it didnt work, but i just didny really notice anything symptom wise.

I feel like my brain finds safety in obsession with sound. Thats the 'tms' i think i need to tackle. That make sense? tmswise, other than really trying to feel and express current emotions, and letting go as much as possible, I just wouldnt really know what else to do.