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TMS and PT should make friends (cpps experience)

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by jamejamesjames1, Aug 21, 2020.

  1. jamejamesjames1

    jamejamesjames1 Peer Supporter

    This is going to sound like blasphamy, but I really dont understand the many people who say "you can't do PT while doing TMS work or you confuse the brain."

    I'm sorry, the otherwise super smart brain that's producing all this pain in the first place?

    I believe all of the pain is produced by my anxiety, fear, tight emotions, irrational thoughts, etc ... But I believe my mind is using painful muscles as it's means.

    So I have no idea why one would not work on BOTH (even if TMS is the more important as it's the source, applies to other areas of the body, and one cannot heal without addressing it).

    However, if in pain, why not treat the symptoms as well?

    The analogy is like that if water running out of the facet and leaking into the floor. You obviously have to turn it off or you'll never clean the mess up (doing TMS work)...but you still don't want the water on the floor.

    Once the facet is turned off the water will eventually evaporate (not doing PT or anything physical) but it could be taken care of a lot faster with some paper towels!!

    I have started going to pt after six months of intermittent tms success. I described my symptoms and she knew exactly which muscles would hurt. And they did...so I can't believe this obvious truth is completely irrelevant and my body is making pain some other way even thought the area is painful to the touch.

    She even said "I can help the muscles bit you'll have to find a way to deal with the mind"

    So the PT is clearly cool with something like tms, I don't understand why it isn't reciprocated in the other direction.

    Is there not a body in "mind body"?

    She has deactivated some of the trigger points (they don't hurt when pressed anymore) and the symptoms in those areas are gone. I still have bad symptoms in areas that still hurt.

    Am I to conclude that my genius mind is just moving the pain to areas that I believe could still hurt (the same mind that gets sooooo confused when you do anything physical!!) Or that deactivating the muscles is speeding up my recovery and the mental approach is what will (hopefully) keep it that way??

    I guess I'll find out soon enough. In a few sessions she has gotten a out half the muscles to stop hurting, so I'd that track record continues I will have no more muscle pain spots soon. That will be the ultimate test. If I still have my symptoms then I know I'm wrong, will eat crow, and have one less distraction in my mind... So either way I say it's a good thing for me

    Also, as it relates to pelvic pain... I've seen success stories of people purely using tms and those doing trigger point therapy (and not having a clue about tms) and both seem to work ... And take roughly the same amount of time for people...

    If a PT discounts the role that the mind or stress plays in the condition and only is concerned about the muscles or some "structural defect" then I agree it would be unhelpful!

  2. Marls

    Marls Well known member

    Crikey Jamesx3 sometimes this forum is downright creepy (in its coincidences)

    I’ve just travelled a 1,000 miles this week to see a NeuroPhysiotherapist who is very across mindbody pain.

    (My mind is somewhat addled lately but) the gist of her conversation was mindbody/stress gets the pain process started and then the strain on the body creates further muscle tension leading to trigger points.

    I’m guessing this is where self-soothing helps to relax the WHOLE body.

    Same as your experience, she also said she’d work on the body (dry needling) while I do the mind stuff, pointing out that no amount of mind work was going to untie the muscle knots, and that a full frontal process was needed. Interestingly she said my shoulders were “ugly with anger” and asked if I was an “emotion eater” ie, I swallow my anger. If it didn’t cost so much I could have listened to her for hours!

    So .... I’m gently combining Bartlett’s breathing and gratefulness; Moskowitz’s visualisation and knowledge of how the brain processes pain; meditation and TMS skills along with the gentle support of my WikiMates.

    We are all on different paths, but sometimes we meet at the gate hey? cheers, marls
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  3. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle


    What you wrote is a misconstrual of the mind body approach and out of context. There is nothing wrong with PT per se, but the premise of WHY you are going has to be addressed. If the physical therapy is operating from the premise that there is something physically wrong (and lets face it that is exactly the purpose of physical therapy...hence the words "physical' and "therapy" for the physical lol) with someone who has neural circuit pain (TMS) then yes, it is sending the wrong message to the brain. If, however, one is doing PT exercises because it makes their body feel more limber and stronger etc., there's no problem with that. Exercise is only beneficial and no one in the tms world would dissuade a person from exercising. Quite the opposite. It's always encouraged. I don't think any expert in this field either, would be so dogmatic or arrogant or presumptuous to tell someone not to try an approach if that placebo power works for them. Whether someone gets better through TMS work or acupuncture or chanting with a Shaman in the rain forest smoking ayuahsaca, whatever works! It all comes down to the power of belief. For me personally Dr. Sarno and Dr, Schubiner and others in the field of TMS make the most sense. The way I view getting better is, if you know the why, you can find a "how". Everything hinges on the correct diagnosis and premise. Faulty premise leads to treatment of the wrong thing. It's like going to an auto mechanic to get your hair done.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  4. jamejamesjames1

    jamejamesjames1 Peer Supporter


    I'm not claiming to be correct. I'm still in pain after all! I'm just trying to make sense of it all and I'm not sure I will fully get it till I get it..if that makes sense?

    So, in your opinion, what makes the painful trigger points go away ? Does the body just automatically take care of it sonehow during healing ?

    As for marls, I assume she meant that "it is creepy you posted so etching that was on my mind" as a positive not a negative
  5. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi @jamejamesjames1 ,

    As far as "trigger points', there are a couple of things I'm noticing. The first is the focus on these types of terms and trying to "figure out" the mechanics of something that is at it's root psychological. People get very hung up on verbiage like "pinched nerves" and "slipped discs" etc which just forms mental images in their minds and further reinforces the fear response. That is another reason why medical specialists and other practitioners like PT"s and chiropractors are incredibly problematic when it comes to chronic pain. They are operating from their own belief systems and training. Terms like "misalignment" and "trigger points" are the stuff of nonsense and fantasy and have been debunked over and over by science. When we have pain stemming from the brain, it takes almost nothing to feel sore spots and "trigger points". A gentle touch, a light breeze, heck just IMAGINING someone pressing on that spot is enough to induce the pain signals. That is all because of the fear. When we are tense and constantly generating tension in the body, there is mild ischemia and muscles do contract and feel sore in certain spots. When I had CRPS in the feet and knees, the lightest feather on my knee would have knocked me over and caused me to vomit from pain because my brain was sending signals of severe nerve pain. In fact you could SEE the swelling and color changes in those areas. The root cause is STILL psychological, however. I really recommend not getting bogged down in medical or PT or physical jargon because it's just another distraction and source of anxiety. When you lose the fear and focus, you cut off the fuel to the danger center of the brain that sends pain signals. When you treat a psychological problem with psychological methods, the body does follow suit almost automatically. It may take a bit to catch up because it is learned pain and thus learned habits, but if one remains calm and resolute in the knowledge that there is nothing wrong with them, the body will always take care of itself. Its default state is wellness.
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  6. jamejamesjames1

    jamejamesjames1 Peer Supporter


    Incredible! One reason I am stuck is you can literally see where my muscles are tucked in when in pain and flat when feeling good (obviously the anxiety would cause the state, but still).

    It's amazing that you noticed swelling and discoloration! I would not have been able to get over that. I would gather that anxiety may have caused it but I wouldn't have been able to trust "ignoring it" to work.

    So in your opinion, what causes the swelling and discoloration. I mean obviously the brain, but more specifically? When I think of "neural pathways pain" I think of a sort of "invisible signal" that isn't noticable by the naked eye. Clearly in your case it was doing something to produce visible changes.
  7. jamejamesjames1

    jamejamesjames1 Peer Supporter


    Another thought for you...

    Do you think it's possible for fear to cause a behavior that causes pain? If so, is it tms? (Not that the label should matter)

    For instance, for me, I'm so afraid my pain is because of interstitial cystis that I hold my urine waaaay longer than I should because that way (in my head) if I am always going like..16oz or so.. there is no way I have IC because they have trouble holding more than I few ounces. I may be squeezing muscles in response to urge to urinate through much of the day, as I only go maybe three times a day and used to be 10+. And that could be part of my pain .
  8. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi @jamejamesjames1 ,

    So the brain creates ALL sensations. People have even gone "blind" from psychosomatic causes. In the case of "phantom limb" pain you see people who have had amputations of limbs and STILL have pain in the line that is no longer there. They first discovered this during the Civil War when so many soldiers suffered horrible amputations and PTSD. In the case of CRPS, it's the same concept. The problem was not in my feet or knees despite the fact that I had bone marrow edema in every toe, extreme rubris (redness), swelling, temperature changes etc...the problem was in my brain. Neural circuit pain. That is dynamic pain which comes and goes, waxes and wanes, moves around, shifts in sensations. It can be shut on or off...as opposed to "static pain" like a broken leg or injury that the body just has to heal from. That's why PT is great for rehab of injuries and sports injuries and post surgery etc., but useless for TMS pain like CRPS. The visuals did create an extra layer of preoccupation for me but you see it was directly correlated to the level of anxiety and emotional repression and negative thought patterns that were brewing internally. When the danger center is continuously activated, signals get sent to all the bodily symptoms and if it goes on long enough, you can see actual physical changes. The CAUSE is still psychological though. So if you don't address the cause, you stay stuck in the chronic pain cycle of fear-pain-fear-pain-fear.

    As far as anxiety behaviors, those are just bad habits as well and habits can be broken. We fall into these habits for different reasons...usually it's the brains way of trying to reduce anxiety. It's maladaptive however. The key is to learn new habits that communicate to the brain a message of safety. Interstitial cystitis is most definitely TMS and I actually had that as well many years ago. All the tension you are creating with your thoughts casuses the bladder to spasm and contract etc. It's not your bladder that is the problem it's your FEAR that there's something damaged and that urinating will cause pain. It's a false belief. Your brain has made the association and become conditioned to this learned response of holding it in. The urge to urinate has become a psychological "trigger" . When you lose the fear, you train your brain out of that neural pathway. It is a process and your brain will test you many times over, so you have to be prepared to stay patient and persistent and calm.
  9. miffybunny

    miffybunny Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi @Marls,

    No worries! I didn't get the inside joke and I was concerned you had seen weird things on here lol!
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2020
  10. Idearealist

    Idearealist Peer Supporter

    I'm so down. Might help temporarily disable the over-analytical part of my brain and facilitate healing xD
  11. Kellso

    Kellso New Member

    Hi James, I recovered from ten months of urinary frequency and pelvic pain. I used the method outlined in *a headache in the pelvis*. U probably know about it already but thought I'd mention it. The authors discuss the role of stress as the main cause.

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